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mordek
United States12705 Posts
On July 14 2016 07:55 PrinceXizor wrote: I mean it's still big enough to cover the entire path through that area though. Sure but he says global vision. I thought it was worth noting if you shoot it forward and someone's already flanked behind you they won't show up on the infrared. It's only the same in some aspects. Yes, it's a similar effect. No, it's not global  | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
LoL clearly superior game because you can spam pings at the bad guy on your ward-lit minimap to get a reaction.  On July 14 2016 10:24 Eppa! wrote: They apparently "fixed" projectile hurtboxes. Rip Mei and Hanzo. On PTR or live? Because after seeing a Mei "aim" in the vicinity of our Pharah, hold down right-click and double-headshot me (only way to kill me in two shots) as I ran speed-boosted near Pharah, it sure didn't seem like she was trying very hard (on kill cams obv.). | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
Now all they need to do is make Junkrat nades no longer "favor the shooter" after the first bounce, and 90% of my problem with OW design is gone. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 15 2016 02:31 Seuss wrote: You should all be terrified because the hitbox changes are going to lead to Mei buffs. Fine by me. I'd be super into mei getting a 10 damage nerf on icicles but a .25 or .5 increase in crit damage. If headshotting consistently increases TTK even more it'd be a step in the right direction imo. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Famous last words. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
If she gets too strong they'll hit her ult. and then who will be laughing. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On July 15 2016 02:31 Seuss wrote: You should all be terrified because the hitbox changes are going to lead to Mei buffs. Apart from the cancer-ult spam because of the "heal gives you ult charge" change? | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 15 2016 03:06 Eppa! wrote: Complaining about Meis icicles being easy to hit when Hitscan heroes exist much joke very fun. I'm fine with hitscan. hitscan means you aimed accurately and thus you get a hit or headshot as you aimed. Projectile weapons being given double the target size means you get headshots and hits that you didn't aim appropriately for. Hitscan rewards the best players more than enlarged hurtboxes for projectile weapons reward good players. Hitscan weapons tend to be pin-point, rather than larger hitbox for the hitscan. while projectiles get increased hitbox sizes AND previous to this upcomign change, an increased target size. If you aim 1-2 pixels off of a target with hitscan you miss. With projectiles if the projectile is tiny, you still hit, if it's large you have another few pixels of leeway before you miss. | ||
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
Imagine if widowmaker's gun was projectile and the projectile was the size of a zenyatta orb. It would have three forms of scaling that make it easier. The Zoom, which magnifies the number of pixels that a hurtbox exists in on the shooters screen (reducing mouse accuracy needed for the shot) The Projectile size, which magnifies the number of pixels away that the projectile can be aimed at in order to hit the target. (the radius of the projectile size) The Projectile directed Hurtbox, which when, as in overwatch, it's larger than the normal hurtbox, increases the target size to aim at. If a Target is 5 pixel radius, with a 2x zoom, a 1 Pixel Radius Projectile and a 20% increased projectile hurtbox. it means that character only needs to target within 8 pixels of the rim of that original 5 pixel radius that a no zoom hitscan character would have to aim at. So the area of the target increases from ~78.5 Pixel ^2 to ~530.66 pixel^2 Having three multipliers like that dramatically change the target size. Having only two, the projectile and the hurtbox increase (which is closer to 50% in OW) Would increase your target area from that 78.5 pixel^2 to 226.865 Pixel^2 It's 3x easier to hit with a projectile than say, soldiers/bastions hitscan with no zoom defining easier to hit as mouse accuracy. Assuming stationary targets so we don't need to get into peekers advantage math. because that's a whole bucket of worms reliant on movespeed values and server distances. Removing that hurbox bloat means that a projectile weapon with a 1 pixel radius increases the target area from 78.5 to 113.04 Pixels ^2. which is significantly more reasonable. EDIT: also ignoring up close. so i used 5 pixels as a sniper range shot. Doing up close math involves angles and shape and silhouette of projectiles at specific angles and it's a whole thing i don't want to do right now. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On July 15 2016 02:42 PrinceXizor wrote: Fine by me. I'd be super into mei getting a 10 damage nerf on icicles but a .25 or .5 increase in crit damage. If headshotting consistently increases TTK even more it'd be a step in the right direction imo. I think the arena style of the game needs TTK to stay 'high' when compared to games like CoD and especially CS and I guess R6S(haven't played or really watched it, but based on your comments it would seem to be along those lines). Mei icicles getting the Widow headshot treatment wouldn't be a bad thing but I definitely don't want them crushing average TTK numbers all over the place elsewhere. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 15 2016 03:49 red_ wrote: I think the arena style of the game needs TTK to stay 'high' when compared to games like CoD and especially CS and I guess R6S(haven't played or really watched it, but based on your comments it would seem to be along those lines). Mei icicles getting the Widow headshot treatment wouldn't be a bad thing but I definitely don't want them crushing average TTK numbers all over the place elsewhere. R6S at the highest level is like 20% twitch shots and 80% prefire and peekers advantage. It's got a very very short TTK. 1 headshot = kill. almost always. you have 120 hp, 100 Standing HP (can move shoot everything) and 20 "downed" HP. if you take 100 damage exactly you go into "down but not out" in which an ally can come rescue you with a long animation and get you 30 more HP and convert all your downed HP to standing hp> so you go from 100/20 to 0/20 to 50/0 through that process. a headshot does 120 damage. with a few exceptions, shotgun pellets deal 2x damage, not 120, and weapons with low penetration values can dip into pellet territory when shooting through walls at distances. So a silenced pistol that shoots from a far distance and hits a target in the head through a wall would deal between 70 and 100 damage depending on the pistol, but never 120. where guns like Glaz's sniper rifle, has a very high penetration value and will always 1 shot headshot, even through two walls. So being able to scout out your enemy and prefire them with peekers advantage gets you a won firefight unless your aim is horrible. I do think that with OW's timers and very disparate HP values TTK being short but not r6s Short is important. You don't want to have to shoot a Tank's HP for 2-3 reloads. because that makes balance require that tanks are peashooters, or dominant. And Just sitting there tanking and not really impacting stuff alone means an individually skilled player is less relevant on a tank, and that also feels bad. The balance is very important. What i'd like to see for OW is a slight rebalance. lowering TTK for headshotting and increasing it slightly for body shots. Not a lot. but just a little. Make pharah deal 105 damage with direct hits and 150 with direct head shot hits. Give hanzo 80 Damage body shots and 240-260 damage Headshots. Make Bastion's Sentry mode Deal 2-10 damage bodyshots and 5-20 damage headshots. those small tweaks that don't severely increase TTK but just enough that the best accuracy means something across the board. Only partially related it's weird that certain characters can just never get the highest amounts of multi kill messages. They just don't have the TTK or reload speed to get more than a double kill or whatever. That's weird. EDIT: on rainbow 6 siege: my favorite content creator talks about the angles and peeking in the game. also displays the TTK very well. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
Not salty at all, nope. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Giving projectiles more forgiveness than hitscan is just one piece of a very complicated puzzle which includes travel time, arcs, increased reliance on prediction/reads, peeking, and player experience on both ends. Essentially I think you've zoomed in too far on one particular aspect of what's going on, seen a disparity, and decided it's unfair without drawing in the big picture. That's not to say hitboxes for projectiles weren't too forgiving before, but there isn't anything inherently virtuous in having those pixel area numbers be equivalent between hitscan and projectile weapons. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 15 2016 05:07 Seuss wrote: PX, I appreciate the effort you put into your pixel analysis, but the scenario you've pared things down to in order to make your math workable doesn't help answer the question, "How easy should it be to hit with a projectile?" Giving projectiles more forgiveness than hitscan is just one piece of a very complicated puzzle which includes travel time, arcs, increased reliance on prediction/reads, peeking, and player experience on both ends. Essentially I think you've zoomed in too far on one particular aspect of what's going on, seen a disparity, and decided it's unfair without drawing in the big picture. That's not to say hitboxes for projectiles weren't too forgiving before, but there isn't anything inherently virtuous in having those pixel area numbers be equivalent between hitscan and projectile weapons. Having the target area be the same size would make hitting with projectiles much more difficult than hitting with hitscan. Especially in a game with a jump button. I wasn't trying to answer how easy it should be. but rather that the current amount of help given by the game was much too much and made the game feel cheap. Balancing by just projectile size can do things well and most importantly feels the most intuitive and make characters feel more powerful and cool. and compensating with slight zoom (1.1 to 1.25x) for characters that need it is helpful as well. the distorted hurtboxes have an even greater and even more damning effect on peeking and on moving targets, but i didnt want to get into it because you have to assume server distances to players and i'm unaware of the exact movespeed difference between say Hanzo and Widowmaker when pulling an arrow back or scoping. A lot of the Projectile time/arc/ prediction stuff is actually done naturally by peoples minds. though there is definitely skill involved there as well. It's not really comparable because tracking someones realtime movements exactly with hitscan is a similar skill by itself (as well as the minor prediction of what a character is going to do between the time you decide to fire, the time you make the command and the time the server gets the command). But the effect distorted hurtboxes have when peeking was atrocious. to the point where vs projectile characters you actually had to duck back much further behind cover than you expected, which meant that vs hitscan users the peekers advantage was greater, and vs projectiles it was lesser, (and in a couple cases actually a disadvantage, like a scoped widow walking both directions vs a target that doesn't die in 1 hit, like say a hanzo with torb armor) the ~30% increase for a 1 pixel Radius Projectile seems about fair. it means you have a 30% larger area that you need to predict. which makes guessing or prediction MUCH easier. for larger projectiles (like Zenyatta orbs or Alt fire Zarya or Pharah rockets) you have an even greater area to aim with, which helps compensate for those projectiles having a relatively slower speed, a speed which in turn helps make those projectiles feel like they have weight and impact behind them. Stuff like Hanzo's Arrows being narrower makes sense because they move much faster than a rocket does, which means that his target area is smaller, but you don't need to predict as far ahead in time. I feel like Projectile Size/shape is enough to compensate for the difference between hitscan and projectile. but if you wanted a small projectile with slower speeds, you could add a slight zoom, which increases your target area on your screen just slightly. | ||
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