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On June 09 2016 01:48 Cixah wrote:
There was a super good analogy on reddit today about widows oppressive nature vs that of pre nerf awp. In csgo, awps if you aren't shooting well with them can feed upwards of three or four rounds worth of money which is crippling to a team. In OW if you're not shooting well on widow your just not able to compete at the high level because enemy widow can two or one tap everyone, on top of you playing bad is probably only feeding over maybe 5% of an ult.
If you thought the awp was good, widow is just better.
It's so fucking dumb of a sentiment. Widow isn't even used more than Mercy and Reinhart on payload but they don't get complained about because Reinhart is niche character (which is 100% played mind you) and Mercy is support. If they play worse than your opponent it doesn't matter as much because they are super easy characters a top level Mercy and borderline top level has little difference. The better widow wins you the game but the better Rein, Lucio, Mercy barely makes a difference is a much bigger problem in this case of problematic characters.
The only thing that makes widow a problem is her power on the salt scale where she dominates even the truly op Mcree.
There is no problem with the AWP because people on full buy being better with m4/ak matter just as much as AWPer which is also why I complained about the skill needed for certain characters in OW.
+ Show Spoiler +
I wish they would buff pharah.
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Man i feel like no one actually reads what i say, they just try to fit bits and pieces of my posts into what they want me to be saying.
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On June 09 2016 13:35 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 01:48 Cixah wrote:
There was a super good analogy on reddit today about widows oppressive nature vs that of pre nerf awp. In csgo, awps if you aren't shooting well with them can feed upwards of three or four rounds worth of money which is crippling to a team. In OW if you're not shooting well on widow your just not able to compete at the high level because enemy widow can two or one tap everyone, on top of you playing bad is probably only feeding over maybe 5% of an ult.
If you thought the awp was good, widow is just better. It's so fucking dumb of a sentiment. Widow isn't even used more than Mercy and Reinhart on payload but they don't get complained about because Reinhart is niche character (which is 100% played mind you) and Mercy is support. If they play worse than your opponent it doesn't matter as much because they are super easy characters a top level Mercy and borderline top level has little difference. The better widow wins you the game but the better Rein, Lucio, Mercy barely makes a difference is a much bigger problem in this case of problematic characters. The only thing that makes widow a problem is her power on the salt scale where she dominates even the truly op Mcree. There is no problem with the AWP because people on full buy being better with m4/ak matter just as much as AWPer which is also why I complained about the skill needed for certain characters in OW. + Show Spoiler +
I wish they would buff pharah.
Actually from the pro stuff I've been watching lately the difference in Reinhardt play is quite notable and very important. Cocco's decision making when to drop shield, use ult(and his ult placement), charge, etc, is just so much better than some of the other Reinhardt's he was playing against and it clearly made a large difference.
As big of a difference as Taimou going off on Widow and McCree or Talespin crushing people on Junk/Pharah? No.... but still very notable.
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On June 09 2016 13:35 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 01:48 Cixah wrote:
There was a super good analogy on reddit today about widows oppressive nature vs that of pre nerf awp. In csgo, awps if you aren't shooting well with them can feed upwards of three or four rounds worth of money which is crippling to a team. In OW if you're not shooting well on widow your just not able to compete at the high level because enemy widow can two or one tap everyone, on top of you playing bad is probably only feeding over maybe 5% of an ult.
If you thought the awp was good, widow is just better. It's so fucking dumb of a sentiment. Widow isn't even used more than Mercy and Reinhart on payload but they don't get complained about because Reinhart is niche character (which is 100% played mind you) and Mercy is support. If they play worse than your opponent it doesn't matter as much because they are super easy characters a top level Mercy and borderline top level has little difference. The better widow wins you the game but the better Rein, Lucio, Mercy barely makes a difference is a much bigger problem in this case of problematic characters. The only thing that makes widow a problem is her power on the salt scale where she dominates even the truly op Mcree. There is no problem with the AWP because people on full buy being better with m4/ak matter just as much as AWPer which is also why I complained about the skill needed for certain characters in OW. + Show Spoiler +
I wish they would buff pharah.
Pharah actually seems like a pretty good example of a character that's in a pretty decent place, but just gets completely shut down by a semi-competent widowmaker, so she's not viable at high levels.
Fliers who have predictable motion are always going to have a hard time in games with hitscan though
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On June 09 2016 15:25 killerdog wrote:
Fliers who have predictable motion are always going to have a hard time in games with hitscan though
not to mention that this game has no recoil.
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On June 09 2016 13:55 PrinceXizor wrote:
Man i feel like no one actually reads what i say, they just try to fit bits and pieces of my posts into what they want me to be saying.
That's actually how your posts feel, trying to bring the discussion points back to what you want to be mentioned/agreed upon even when they discuss varied things. So if it's the same for them, after awhile they won't bother anymore which is why you feel ignored.
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On June 09 2016 17:19 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 13:55 PrinceXizor wrote:
Man i feel like no one actually reads what i say, they just try to fit bits and pieces of my posts into what they want me to be saying. That's actually how your posts feel, trying to bring the discussion points back to what you want to be mentioned/agreed upon even when they discuss varied things. So if it's the same for them, after awhile they won't bother anymore which is why you feel ignored.
when i say "i think genji is a design problem for blizzard and when he's strong he's problematic" and people tell me that genji isn't strong right now as an answer, and tell me to stop complaining about genji because i lose to him and other shit i never even said. its insane.
Red's having an actual conversation. everyone else is just assuming i'm complaining about something i lose to, when not only did i mention, when it was finally brought up, that i don't have problems beating genji right now, but also that has nothing to do with having problems with genji's design.
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11589 Posts
I just completely disagree with you, in case that wasn't clear.
As for the Widow/AWP discussion, I have a few thoughts that I think are necessary to consider.
1) In CSGO, the AWP is an inherent part of the game. There has been no iteration of the game that I'm aware of that doesn't feature teams having at least one relatively dedicated AWPer on their team. The "pre-nerf" AWP isn't much different from the "post-nerf" AWP except that now AWP play on both sides is more static and less dynamic than it was before the change. Anyone complaining about the AWP before the change was bad. It was widely regarded as a poor change for the high-level competitive game. Reddit is, again, wrong.
2) Widow is a strong character because of her design but I also think that there are a lot of tools in OW right now that could make her much easier to play around as most of the spots that provide her long sightlines to plink away from become more common knowledge and teams are more able to specifically play around the presence of a Widow, shut her down with high mobility characters and then take objectives with the power play. Obviously she's still going to be strong in pub play but snipers always are against uncoordinated teams!
3) Widow is not any more inherently oppressive than any other "counter" within the game. The nature of OW's metagame is literally designed around certain picks being strong against others. McCree - Tracer, Genji - Hanzo, Pharah - Bastion, etc are all examples of interactions that lead to one character being much worse to pick as a result of the other being on the opposing team. Widow - X is not somehow a more dominating matchup than any other interaction in the game, and there are counters like Winston - Widow and Lucio - Widow that make the femme fatale much more difficult to be effective with.
tl;dr get fucking good
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On June 09 2016 18:30 yamato77 wrote:
I just completely disagree with you, in case that wasn't clear.
As for the Widow/AWP discussion, I have a few thoughts that I think are necessary to consider.
1) In CSGO, the AWP is an inherent part of the game. There has been no iteration of the game that I'm aware of that doesn't feature teams having at least one relatively dedicated AWPer on their team. The "pre-nerf" AWP isn't much different from the "post-nerf" AWP except that now AWP play on both sides is more static and less dynamic than it was before the change. Anyone complaining about the AWP before the change was bad. It was widely regarded as a poor change for the high-level competitive game. Reddit is, again, wrong.
2) Widow is a strong character because of her design but I also think that there are a lot of tools in OW right now that could make her much easier to play around as most of the spots that provide her long sightlines to plink away from become more common knowledge and teams are more able to specifically play around the presence of a Widow, shut her down with high mobility characters and then take objectives with the power play. Obviously she's still going to be strong in pub play but snipers always are against uncoordinated teams!
3) Widow is not any more inherently oppressive than any other "counter" within the game. The nature of OW's metagame is literally designed around certain picks being strong against others. McCree - Tracer, Genji - Hanzo, Pharah - Bastion, etc are all examples of interactions that lead to one character being much worse to pick as a result of the other being on the opposing team. Widow - X is not somehow a more dominating matchup than any other interaction in the game, and there are counters like Winston - Widow and Lucio - Widow that make the femme fatale much more difficult to be effective with.
tl;dr get fucking good
Any time a Widow is in the game it's pretty easy to flank her as a Genji/Reaper/Tracer.
One thing I would like to see in OW is a gamemode where you can't have more than 1 of the same hero on a team.
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On June 09 2016 17:42 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 17:19 Alaric wrote:On June 09 2016 13:55 PrinceXizor wrote:
Man i feel like no one actually reads what i say, they just try to fit bits and pieces of my posts into what they want me to be saying. That's actually how your posts feel, trying to bring the discussion points back to what you want to be mentioned/agreed upon even when they discuss varied things. So if it's the same for them, after awhile they won't bother anymore which is why you feel ignored. when i say "i think genji is a design problem for blizzard and when he's strong he's problematic" and people tell me that genji isn't strong right now as an answer, and tell me to stop complaining about genji because i lose to him and other shit i never even said. its insane. Red's having an actual conversation. everyone else is just assuming i'm complaining about something i lose to, when not only did i mention, when it was finally brought up, that i don't have problems beating genji right now, but also that has nothing to do with having problems with genji's design.
Most of your complaints are you pointing to a random part of genji's kit and saying "this is bad/broken" with no actual arguments or evidence for why...
"I can't hear his footsteps if I listen to music!" well you can't listen to music in shooters and expect to do well lol, sound is huge in these games
"his headshots do a lot of damage!" True, but so do everyones, and his are way harder to hit than almost any other dps role's.
And then you've said the super convincing "his kit is dumb," without any actual argument for why that's true, about 10 times. Which can't really be addressed other than to talk about why he's not very strong right now, but apparently that's then "ignoring your point..."
If your main point is just "i'm right!" then people can't really discuss it other than to say "well you're wrong"...
It's hard to have a proper discussion when almost everyone seems to be in agreement, and the guy not in agreement is making super vague arguments that keep changing every post.
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
On June 09 2016 17:42 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 17:19 Alaric wrote:On June 09 2016 13:55 PrinceXizor wrote:
Man i feel like no one actually reads what i say, they just try to fit bits and pieces of my posts into what they want me to be saying. That's actually how your posts feel, trying to bring the discussion points back to what you want to be mentioned/agreed upon even when they discuss varied things. So if it's the same for them, after awhile they won't bother anymore which is why you feel ignored. when i say "i think genji is a design problem for blizzard and when he's strong he's problematic" and people tell me that genji isn't strong right now as an answer, and tell me to stop complaining about genji because i lose to him and other shit i never even said. its insane. Red's having an actual conversation. everyone else is just assuming i'm complaining about something i lose to, when not only did i mention, when it was finally brought up, that i don't have problems beating genji right now, but also that has nothing to do with having problems with genji's design.
So, if you have no problem with Genjis and we have no problem with Genjis and the competitive scene doesn't use Genjis and the only people that hate Genjis are people in uncoordinated teams why is he a fundamentally flawed design concept by Blizzard?
If you want to talk about a strong character not getting nerfed I'll direct you to cancer 1 shot win roadhog with a hook that has an insane hit box.
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On June 09 2016 19:02 Holyflare wrote:
So, if you have no problem with Genjis and we have no problem with Genjis and the competitive scene doesn't use Genjis and the only people that hate Genjis are people in uncoordinated teams why is he a fundamentally flawed design concept by Blizzard?
If you want to talk about a strong character not getting nerfed I'll direct you to cancer 1 shot win roadhog with a hook that has an insane hit box.
Genji has warped competitive overwatch up until the most recent meta. His character has directly led to the nerfs of OTHER characters. when you have to start changing other characters in order to keep another under control...
There was a period where Genji's HP got nerfed to 150, and team started running torbjorns in order to buff his HP back up again, blizzard then swapped his HP to 200. McCree being the thing he is, is the main thing keeping genji under control right now. Having Genji's mobility in a game with otherwise very crowded chokes, and his speed means that he can flank and cut off reinforcements better than most characters in the game.
When genji is a force on the scene the meta is entirely sit 1 person on objective, and then kill people out of spawn until you win. the interesting stuff happens only when the genjis screw up or something huge happens to break through that.
On June 09 2016 18:59 killerdog wrote:
"I can't hear his footsteps if I listen to music!" well you can't listen to music in shooters and expect to do well lol, sound is huge in these games
first off. holy shit LOL you took that as an actual complaint and didn't understand the context, which is fitting with the rest of the shit you've said to me. dude. you have either not read my posts or didnt understand them. either way plz stop LOL. you couldnt have made it more obvious you aren't interested in discussing it but rather trying to shit on me without reading.
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
Why did they nerf other characters if genjis are strong? And, yes, obviously solo heroes do better in a fresh game with no team play or meta. Just think back to early league and crap where the meta was dumb.
I don't think his kit is overwhelming, you don't particularly need a mccree to kill him either and if you're running one by one then any hero in the game can pick people off. Why isn't a hooking one shot healbot roadhog more op than a genji going around a flank? Running up walls doesn't count.
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On June 09 2016 19:31 Holyflare wrote:
Why did they nerf other characters if genjis are strong? And, yes, obviously solo heroes do better in a fresh game with no team play or meta. Just think back to early league and crap where the meta was dumb.
I don't think his kit is overwhelming, you don't particularly need a mccree to kill him either and if you're running one by one then any hero in the game can pick people off. Why isn't a hooking one shot healbot roadhog more op than a genji going around a flank? Running up walls doesn't count.
The strategy was Zenyatta orb and Symmetra shield onto Genji and have genji run around like a madman being able to outpoke anyone he couldnt outright all-in. Anyone big would get Discord orbed by zenyatta and genji could do a 270 damage all in in <1 second and kill them, or if it's a tank genji would to headshot, but tank heads are huge, except maybe zarya's? Genji was the impetus, but blizzard didnt want people to just use zenyatta and symmetra to buff up other characters. They also experimented with nerfing genji's HP, but all that did was make it more necessary to buff his HP back up with those characters, he warped the meta so hard they just reverted the nerf.
Part of Genji's poke power comes from how huge Projectile hurtboxes are. It's significantly easier to hit and to headshot people with a projectile weapon than with a hitscan one, the target hurtbox is A LOT bigger, some cases it's even twice as big for headshots. That plus the perfect accuracy and high damage made genji a nightmare, because even if you outplayed him he'd be able to reflect and then dash/jump away and reset the situation.
Now Genji's problems could be fixed by completely changing the competitive game modes to focus less on those maps with chokes and slow reinforcements, but that seems a lot more trouble than just changing genji.
Competitive overwatch as a whole has been super follow-the-leader though. so i imagine we aren't going to be branching out a ton for a while.
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On June 09 2016 19:16 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 18:59 killerdog wrote:
"I can't hear his footsteps if I listen to music!" well you can't listen to music in shooters and expect to do well lol, sound is huge in these games
first off. holy shit LOL you took that as an actual complaint and didn't understand the context, which is fitting with the rest of the shit you've said to me. dude. you have either not read my posts or didnt understand them. either way plz stop LOL. you couldnt have made it more obvious you aren't interested in discussing it but rather trying to shit on me without reading.
I went through all your posts in the last 3 pages and literally the only arguments you've made were that, stating his headshot damage, and stating his hp...
If he's broken then his numbers are relevant, but you've explicitly said he's not strong right now and then you keep listing his numbers while saying it's his overall kit design which is inherently flawed.
I don't get why him being specifically "problematic when strong" is an issue, anyone is problematic when strong, it's just how you deal with with their strength which can cause issues. If he becomes dominant they can just nerf him specifically, he's more designed for pubs than pro play anyway.
Also all the things in that post I quoted were from your own posts... If you think that post was obnoxious and missing the point then maybe look at your own posting style...
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Should just rename this thread "Music Monday and Overwatch."
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On June 09 2016 20:01 Gahlo wrote:
Should just rename this thread "Music Monday and Overwatch."
There have been spells of all things in this thread. Doto, Hearthstone, MTG, etc.
The overwatch talk will die down eventually.
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On June 09 2016 20:01 Gahlo wrote:
Should just rename this thread "Music Monday and Overwatch."
The skype room has turned into dota, magic and babies to compensate :p
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The thing 90% of us are playing for 5+ hours a night is being discussed for 3 pages! Everyone panic?!
That being said, 1 week till dreamhacks and I've settled on a few decks unless someone gives me some super secret tech. I think we can do EET boys.
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EPT
