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On April 27 2016 04:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 04:24 nafta wrote:On April 27 2016 04:19 PrinceXizor wrote:On April 27 2016 04:12 nafta wrote:
Yea it honestly makes it worse.
Equality of opportunity>>>>>>>>>equality of outcome. Even if something is 100% white men or black women or w/e else doesn't mean it is unfair. the issue occurs where you notice the trend of Jobs that pay well and start paying better are the ones in western society to be dominated by white men, and it's not because white men are the best programmers or the best CEOs, it's because the tech industry is extremely hostile to minority groups, and business is more about networking than talent or intelligence. Look at publishing in the US for example. publishing was a high paying industry, women started joining the industry and then the average pay in the industry started plummeting. the men left for greener pastures and now publishing is almost entirely a women's club in america. industries can be "functional" and still be representations of an unhealthy economic environment. a lack of diversity isn't due to cultural or genetic predisposition. because white men used to do everything in america and europe, the industries that started to get diversified also started to decrease in social status as a result, which also leads to less and less pay. thats a societal issue. And those businesses start falling behind the others that hire you based on how good you are. The pay gets reduced because more people want to do it so they don't have to pay as much. So you fix nepotism by ignoring it and adding another thing that is just as bad. I'm arguing neither for nor against Affirmative Action because honestly I don't have an informed enough opinion to argue either side. I just find it silly that when AA is complained about, nepotism is rarely mentioned when I view it as equally as (if not more) pervasive of a problem in general. edit - yes, I do realize that one is an enforced legal structure and the other is systemic human nature
Well nepotism is more understandable. People trust their friends/family. Obviously it isn't a good idea very often but still can't really change that. At least imo there is no problem in someone deciding to hire their friends rather than someone more competent. They will make less money as a result.
The problem is that since quotas exist every time you assume people are there because of it. Obviously not always but very often.
Also notice how there are quotas only for the "fun" jobs. Why isn't there a quota for sewer cleaning or building bridges?
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On April 27 2016 04:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 04:24 nafta wrote:On April 27 2016 04:19 PrinceXizor wrote:On April 27 2016 04:12 nafta wrote:
Yea it honestly makes it worse.
Equality of opportunity>>>>>>>>>equality of outcome. Even if something is 100% white men or black women or w/e else doesn't mean it is unfair. the issue occurs where you notice the trend of Jobs that pay well and start paying better are the ones in western society to be dominated by white men, and it's not because white men are the best programmers or the best CEOs, it's because the tech industry is extremely hostile to minority groups, and business is more about networking than talent or intelligence. Look at publishing in the US for example. publishing was a high paying industry, women started joining the industry and then the average pay in the industry started plummeting. the men left for greener pastures and now publishing is almost entirely a women's club in america. industries can be "functional" and still be representations of an unhealthy economic environment. a lack of diversity isn't due to cultural or genetic predisposition. because white men used to do everything in america and europe, the industries that started to get diversified also started to decrease in social status as a result, which also leads to less and less pay. thats a societal issue. And those businesses start falling behind the others that hire you based on how good you are. The pay gets reduced because more people want to do it so they don't have to pay as much. So you fix nepotism by ignoring it and adding another thing that is just as bad. I'm arguing neither for nor against Affirmative Action because honestly I don't have an informed enough opinion to argue either side. I just find it silly that when AA is complained about, nepotism is rarely mentioned when I view it as equally as (if not more) pervasive of a problem in general. edit - yes, I do realize that one is an enforced legal structure and the other is systemic human nature
thats kind of the point tho
one is realistically impossible to enforce against, the other is actively enforced.
it's only realistic to focus on the one you have any chance of getting rid of (as small as that chance may be, it's still there)
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Only legendary I got was Soggoth the Slitherer. It's ok, I guess.
Gonna make C'thun Druid tho
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On April 27 2016 04:19 PrinceXizor wrote:
the issue occurs where you notice the trend of Jobs that pay well and start paying better are the ones in western society to be dominated by white men, and it's not because white men are the best programmers or the best CEOs, it's because the tech industry is extremely hostile to minority groups, and business is more about networking than talent or intelligence. Look at publishing in the US for example. publishing was a high paying industry, women started joining the industry and then the average pay in the industry started plummeting. the men left for greener pastures and now publishing is almost entirely a women's club in america. industries can be "functional" and still be representations of an unhealthy economic environment. a lack of diversity isn't due to cultural or genetic predisposition. because white men used to do everything in america and europe, the industries that started to get diversified also started to decrease in social status as a result, which also leads to less and less pay. thats a societal issue.
What? You are just making a bunch of baseless assumptions and using it to solidify your argument. People don't just DECIDE to stop paying people when we let the women folk in wtf??
There are tons of difficult ass jobs that don't pay that well like academic research (if you don't happen to be one of the lucky few to get professorship or whatever) that are also dominated by white men (in many fields).
There are also tons of well paying jobs that are no longer well-paying and were also dominated by white men. (hello blockbuster video CEO kekekeke)
Publishing industry became more women dominated because suddenly women were allowed to have jobs. It also started being less well paying because of the internet and video games TV books are no longer a monopoly on solo entertainment. Which is probably also where all the would be "book" men meant (what's the gender% breakdown of this vidya game megaplex TL? keke)
The tech industry is paid well because you can write a program with 1-10+ guys and sell a hundred thousand copies and become insanely rich (bill gates). Nearly all the engineering/CS majors are white guys so it's not a surprise it remains white guy heavy.
Business is about networking and not about talent or intelligence? Do you know this as a successful businessman?
Like every CEO doing a talk will tell you he worked like 14 hours a day his whole life to get into and maintain his position. Not only is it a very elite group it becomes next to impossible if you are trying to follow the societal expectations that women tend to have in terms of looking after their family and raising kids etc.
Look I'm not saying that the tech/business industry isn't extremely sexist and it pushes some minorities out. I'm sure it does, and I know that google basically had to adjust their reviews of women in interviews to be the exact opposite of their opinions (women rated as the worst preformed the best, women rated the best performed the worst, not joking straight from eric schmidt) because of unconcious bias.
But it's ridiculous to just say that everyone decides to pay white guys more. It's a free market capitalistic system. The highest paying jobs are the one's that make the most money. They tend to be some of the hardest jobs as well which helps groups who had an upbringing allowing them to get the education and space to learn everything they need.
This is different from someone deciding to higher a white guy instead of an equally qualified black guy. Even if the guy isn't actively racist, he's seen a lot more examples of effective white guys working and he just follows the trend. Kind of like the way FoTM league champs are. They might not be THAT much stronger than some underplayed champs, but you see them do well so many times just because of how often you see them, so you just naturally assume they are better than some alternative.
Many times a champ is considered to be OP even though their winrates aren't high just because of popularity.
BTW, a field being women dominated ( say nursing) I'm pretty sure will put off a lot of men getting into it as well. Maybe the fields aren't as hostile but it still has that effect.
The idea of affirmative action is a good one. It's "We don't give these asian guys a chance so let's hire the best asians and if they perform much better than expected we can adjust our barometers accordingly"
But the risk (or perception from salty white guys hue) is "we hired some less qualified asian guys to meet our quotas"
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On April 27 2016 04:24 killerdog wrote:
In my philosophy of science class today a girl suggested that it would be irresponsible of scientists to give nuclear weapons to stupid races of people like africans
lol was it this person?
On April 27 2016 03:58 nafta wrote:
Different races/cultures/communities/sex are better/worse at different things.
I really wonder what you mean by that? I can see the cultures one and maybe that the average man is stronger than the average woman?
Good example about google teut I didn't know that one. perfectly proves that gender bias is still massively prevalent (if anyone outside redpill actually disagrees with that). I think my favorite example is how massively the population of women increases in every orchestra when they do blind auditions. its such a good case of the best candidate should get the job its sad how unfair it has been.
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On April 27 2016 04:38 Dandel Ion wrote:
most feminists i talked to came across as whiny crybabies to me, i guess that means im banal rip
#notallfeminists
On April 27 2016 05:03 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 04:24 killerdog wrote:
In my philosophy of science class today a girl suggested that it would be irresponsible of scientists to give nuclear weapons to stupid races of people like africans lol was it this person? Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 03:58 nafta wrote:
Different races/cultures/communities/sex are better/worse at different things. I really wonder what you mean by that? I can see the cultures one and maybe that the average man is stronger than the average woman? Good example about google teut I didn't know that one. perfectly proves that gender bias is still massively prevalent (if anyone outside redpill actually disagrees with that). I think my favorite example is how massively the population of women increases in every orchestra when they do blind auditions. its such a good case of the best candidate should get the job its sad how unfair it has been.
personally I think men are intrinsically intimidated by women who are good/better at something they do (e.g violin) because its like well I'm trying to attract women and all I got is these violin skills and this woman is even better than me at that I'm worthless qq
so you just say "heh she's a stupid woman she can barely play violin at all" feel better about yourself so you can get the confidence to inappropriately ask her/some other women out with your new found sexist confidence.
I'm just something I came up with I have no real evidence other than personal feelings which I analysed and also all the analysing all the super sexist/pua etc sites and how they tend to try to build mens confidence up by being incredibly disparaging toward women
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On April 27 2016 05:03 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 04:24 killerdog wrote:
In my philosophy of science class today a girl suggested that it would be irresponsible of scientists to give nuclear weapons to stupid races of people like africans lol was it this person? Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 03:58 nafta wrote:
Different races/cultures/communities/sex are better/worse at different things. I really wonder what you mean by that? I can see the cultures one and maybe that the average man is stronger than the average woman? Good example about google teut I didn't know that one. perfectly proves that gender bias is still massively prevalent (if anyone outside redpill actually disagrees with that). I think my favorite example is how massively the population of women increases in every orchestra when they do blind auditions. its such a good case of the best candidate should get the job its sad how unfair it has been.
Race/culture/community is pretty much the same thing so yea wasn't too smart of a comment.
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On April 27 2016 05:06 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 05:03 ComaDose wrote:On April 27 2016 04:24 killerdog wrote:
In my philosophy of science class today a girl suggested that it would be irresponsible of scientists to give nuclear weapons to stupid races of people like africans lol was it this person? On April 27 2016 03:58 nafta wrote:
Different races/cultures/communities/sex are better/worse at different things. I really wonder what you mean by that? I can see the cultures one and maybe that the average man is stronger than the average woman? Good example about google teut I didn't know that one. perfectly proves that gender bias is still massively prevalent (if anyone outside redpill actually disagrees with that). I think my favorite example is how massively the population of women increases in every orchestra when they do blind auditions. its such a good case of the best candidate should get the job its sad how unfair it has been. Race/culture/community is pretty much the same thing so yea wasn't too smart of a comment.
what.... I disagree about the first part
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On April 27 2016 05:06 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 05:03 ComaDose wrote:On April 27 2016 04:24 killerdog wrote:
In my philosophy of science class today a girl suggested that it would be irresponsible of scientists to give nuclear weapons to stupid races of people like africans lol was it this person? On April 27 2016 03:58 nafta wrote:
Different races/cultures/communities/sex are better/worse at different things. I really wonder what you mean by that? I can see the cultures one and maybe that the average man is stronger than the average woman? Good example about google teut I didn't know that one. perfectly proves that gender bias is still massively prevalent (if anyone outside redpill actually disagrees with that). I think my favorite example is how massively the population of women increases in every orchestra when they do blind auditions. its such a good case of the best candidate should get the job its sad how unfair it has been. Race/culture/community is pretty much the same thing so yea wasn't too smart of a comment.
yea nafta as someone who eats rice and watches anime and thus an asian I have to agree with you there
also posts on TL
confirmed asian
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On April 27 2016 03:51 PrinceXizor wrote:
Yeah safe spaces, and those sorts of programs like affirmative action exist to treat the symptoms of inequality not cure the inequality. and especially for affirmative action type stuff in media positions and upper management, it provides representation, which generationally leads to change. new kids grow up with black or gay or trans idols doing the things they want to do, and get inspired to do the same, and the next generation is better off and doesn't need the programs as much. that doesn't work for every position right, but for media positions and the visible things, it means so much. In america, much of the black youth wants to be actors or athletes. and thats because they see black actors or athletes who grew up in their area and became this 'important person' and are inspired by that.
representation is the best way to solve problems over multiple generations. the better represented all groups are, the more normal it seems to have a diverse group to the next generation, the more diverse the groups get when those kids are old enough to have kids. etc etc. So while those work programs help in the visible jobs they just patch over other issues without fixing anything.
But here is the thing, those things don't really change or fix them at all, they just create segregation. They separate two groups and make them work by different rules. How are those two groups ever going to identify with the other when they can just sit there and point at the different rules they play by? I'll let you into my world view for a second here.
For all intents and purposes, I lived under the poverty line my entire childhood. My dad worked his balls off, i never saw him. He was there, he cared about me, but he worked 80 to 90 hours a week. His wage was likely above median, but my younger brother has a disease called Muscular Dystrophy in which he sees atrophy in his muscles due to his cells lacking the ability to replenish their energy the same way most people do. This is a legitimate disease, and today all his medical care would have been government funded. At the time, it wasn't looked at as a legitimate disease or disability. People in charge of funding would ask "He can walk, how is he disabled?", and scoff at doctors claims that this funding would greatly improve his quality of life. He had a choice, allow my brother a shot at a comfortable life and live with nearly nothing, or allow my brother to die by the age of 12 and live comfortably. The only reason I could eat many times, is because of going to the food-bank with shame.
My dad was basically forced to pay nearly 6 figures a year for all of his surgeries, his wheelchair, his medications, modifications to our vehicles and house, modifications and fancy ass stuff to help him save energy and increase his quality of life out of his own pocket. To do this he worked absolutely obscene hours.
My Family spent my entire life barely getting by. I wanted to go to Uni, and I couldn't go because I couldn't afford it. Literally every avenue to get funding, I was disqualified for. I am not Aboriginal. I am not a minority. I am not an immigrant. My 93% high school average is not enough to fund your education through grants. Therefor I had to pay. I could not get government loans because my parents made too much money (which was spent on basic quality of life provisions). I had to work for 2 years before i could raise enough money, then work full time during school. My average week while taking engineering consisted of 40 hours of work, 35 hours of classes, 25 hours of commuting, ~25 hours of studying, and then pretty much the rest just not dying and sleeping. Honestly, those years were the most hellish 4 years of my life and burned me out ridiculous amounts.
Yet, most people who I talk to assume that I didn't have to work for it at all, and it was all handed to me because of my skin colour. Ironically, if I was Native, statistics are likely I'd have lived a nearly identical childhood and actually just had a free ride through university. I'd have graduated sooner, had no debts, lived largely care free in comparison to the amount of work i ended up having to do. Somewhat ironically, in that scenario people would consider me a brave trail blazer who forged a path and worked his ass off, despite not having to work nearly as hard as I actually had to.
And as much as I know it is wrong, there is resentment there. I dont want it there, I don't blame those that do benefit from it, but it is not fair. It wasn't fair. Yet if I acknowledge that I am considered racist and intolerant. At the same time, it is natural for that resentment to be there. Not only did I work my ass off, but people assume i didn't. Not only did I have to because the rules are skewed based on arbitrary things I have no control of, but people assume i won the lottery anyway. And then people who had just as much as me got an essentially free ride.
I also think it is kind of strange how some people are allowed to play the victim card, and some aren't. I've had numerous people personally blame me for slavery. Forget about the fact that my Canada contributed basically nothing but safe refuge for African American Slaves, my family is Ukrainian. Ukrainians havn't victimized shit for nearly 500 years. Looking at my direct descendants, my fathers side escaped Ukraine before they joined the USSR and came to Canada, where they had their land stripped away and my great grand father was "interned" in a labour camp where he died in WW1 (Their old farm was sold a few years ago by the government for tens of millions to Conoco-Phillips, nice how that works). My mothers side of the family suffered through joining USSR, and fled to Canada during the Holodomor.
Yet still, if i were to try and play the victim card people would laugh at me. But someone 5 Generations removed from american slavery can play the victim card? They started from nothing 150 years ago? My family started from nothing 70 years ago! Why can they play the victim card but I cannot?
At some point, it doesn't matter who you are, you have it worse off than someone else. On the flip side, no matter who you are, some one else had it much worse than you and accomplished 3 times as much. As far as I am concerned, all you can do is make yourself better off yourself by playing by the same rules as everyone else.
The most inspirational people and greatest achieving people i have ever met all had quite serious disabilities which as far as I am concerned hurts you in ways that are infinitely worse than being any colour any where in the world possibly could. This is my world view.
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The point is iCanada, the way you are being generalised for being a white guy even though you had a super shit life, is the same way many minorities are being generalised in a negative way
and possibly worse is that the generalisation has merit simply because if you're black in america there's a much higher chance you lived in poverty etc which is obviously a bad thing.
Then there's the flipside of everyone suddenly coming up with a million ways they are oppressed to fit in with guys who had legitimate problems and then start to blame everything on society.
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the system is definitely failing bi-directionaly
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On April 27 2016 05:09 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 05:06 nafta wrote:On April 27 2016 05:03 ComaDose wrote:On April 27 2016 04:24 killerdog wrote:
In my philosophy of science class today a girl suggested that it would be irresponsible of scientists to give nuclear weapons to stupid races of people like africans lol was it this person? On April 27 2016 03:58 nafta wrote:
Different races/cultures/communities/sex are better/worse at different things. I really wonder what you mean by that? I can see the cultures one and maybe that the average man is stronger than the average woman? Good example about google teut I didn't know that one. perfectly proves that gender bias is still massively prevalent (if anyone outside redpill actually disagrees with that). I think my favorite example is how massively the population of women increases in every orchestra when they do blind auditions. its such a good case of the best candidate should get the job its sad how unfair it has been. Race/culture/community is pretty much the same thing so yea wasn't too smart of a comment. yea nafta as someone who eats rice and watches anime and thus an asian I have to agree with you there also posts on TL confirmed asian
lol
By that I mean race doesn't matter at all it is all about where you grow up and what type of values you are taught.
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No it's obvious progress. Instead of it sucking super hard for nearly all non white guys or good looking white girls it now sucks a little less for them and the white guys have to deal with people blaming them for shit on the internet.
its a tough racket but im holding in their for the greater good boys
On April 27 2016 05:18 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 05:09 Slayer91 wrote:On April 27 2016 05:06 nafta wrote:On April 27 2016 05:03 ComaDose wrote:On April 27 2016 04:24 killerdog wrote:
In my philosophy of science class today a girl suggested that it would be irresponsible of scientists to give nuclear weapons to stupid races of people like africans lol was it this person? On April 27 2016 03:58 nafta wrote:
Different races/cultures/communities/sex are better/worse at different things. I really wonder what you mean by that? I can see the cultures one and maybe that the average man is stronger than the average woman? Good example about google teut I didn't know that one. perfectly proves that gender bias is still massively prevalent (if anyone outside redpill actually disagrees with that). I think my favorite example is how massively the population of women increases in every orchestra when they do blind auditions. its such a good case of the best candidate should get the job its sad how unfair it has been. Race/culture/community is pretty much the same thing so yea wasn't too smart of a comment. yea nafta as someone who eats rice and watches anime and thus an asian I have to agree with you there also posts on TL confirmed asian lol By that I mean race doesn't matter at all it is all about where you grow up and what type of values you are taught.
right and when I get into a boxing tournament with a bunch of black guys with typically higher reach:height ratio and higher base testosterone and get punched a lot from outside my reach are you gonna tell me that?
I mean I just picked something that's obvious and has data to back it up there could be a lot of subtle factors that are very difficult to analyse scientifically.
We might be able to prove that koreans are better at starcraft at some point in the future.
We could start by getting korean parents to adopt a large sample size of white babies and have them grow up in korean and see if they are good at starcraft.
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On April 27 2016 05:19 Slayer91 wrote:No it's obvious progress. Instead of it sucking super hard for nearly all non white guys or good looking white girls it now sucks a little less for them and the white guys have to deal with people blaming them for shit on the internet. its a tough racket but im holding in their for the greater good boys Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 05:18 nafta wrote:On April 27 2016 05:09 Slayer91 wrote:On April 27 2016 05:06 nafta wrote:On April 27 2016 05:03 ComaDose wrote:On April 27 2016 04:24 killerdog wrote:
In my philosophy of science class today a girl suggested that it would be irresponsible of scientists to give nuclear weapons to stupid races of people like africans lol was it this person? On April 27 2016 03:58 nafta wrote:
Different races/cultures/communities/sex are better/worse at different things. I really wonder what you mean by that? I can see the cultures one and maybe that the average man is stronger than the average woman? Good example about google teut I didn't know that one. perfectly proves that gender bias is still massively prevalent (if anyone outside redpill actually disagrees with that). I think my favorite example is how massively the population of women increases in every orchestra when they do blind auditions. its such a good case of the best candidate should get the job its sad how unfair it has been. Race/culture/community is pretty much the same thing so yea wasn't too smart of a comment. yea nafta as someone who eats rice and watches anime and thus an asian I have to agree with you there also posts on TL confirmed asian lol By that I mean race doesn't matter at all it is all about where you grow up and what type of values you are taught. right and when I get into a boxing tournament with a bunch of black guys with typically higher reach:height ratio and higher base testosterone and get punched a lot from outside my reach are you gonna tell me that?
Just because the average black guy has more than the average white guy doesn't mean you have less than the guy there.
Well I think that Koreans being better is all about culture and has nothing to do with race but I don't have any proof either.
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I'd like you to not bring my penis into this nafta can we keep it civilised.
it turns out when analysing entire races you tend to average things out and suddenly average becomes important.
I mean because of bellcurving you might have 10 korean guys who are flash level potential at starcraft and only 1 white guy so it gets worse in competitive areas
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The whole history aspect of oppression is inane and irrelevant for who a person is and their right and opportunities. If you look to my family technically I was 75% oppressed. It doesn't fucking matter. We should look at the present for what needs to get fixed for the future.
I read somewhere that whole Korea/China academic excellence is waaay shorter than people think.
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On April 27 2016 05:22 Slayer91 wrote:
I'd like you to not bring my penis into this nafta can we keep it civilised.
it turns out when analysing entire races you tend to average things out and suddenly average becomes important.
There are different types of white/black too though.
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On April 27 2016 05:23 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 05:22 Slayer91 wrote:
I'd like you to not bring my penis into this nafta can we keep it civilised.
it turns out when analysing entire races you tend to average things out and suddenly average becomes important. There are different types of white/black too though.
yeah I guess the situation isn't 100% white and black
On April 27 2016 05:23 Eppa! wrote:
The whole history aspect of oppression is inane and irrelevant for who a person is and their right and opportunities. If you look to my family technically I was 75% oppressed. It doesn't fucking matter. We should look at the present for what needs to get fixed for the future.
seems like a pretty good assumption to make that the guys who were slaves 3 generations ago aren't going to be able to hand down a 300 acre farm to little johnny when he grows up.
sure some rich guys blew it all and some poor guys made it to the top but on average they stayed the same and had less opportunities than the richer guys.
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EPT
