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On June 21 2017 02:48 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2017 13:23 sharkie wrote:
neeb must surely already be one of the top foreigner earners in sc2 history, no? Absolutely - he earned that spot when he won the Kespa Cup. Only time a foreigner has won a Premier tournament in Korea. He's also the only foreigner to achieve the Triple Crown (title in each continent / region).
I think you misunderstood me! I meant top earner money wise, not achievements!
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Mmm... how do I post this without triggering people?
Okay. Is it me the only one who thinks Neeb played a little bit behind Major (Special) and won because Protoss defense is too good at the moment? There weren't any possible holes to attack Neeb's bases. Yeah, he was on point with the defense placements, but seemed unfair to me. I don't watch too much Starcraft 2 lately, and I'm playing less and less because work and life & all that, but it felt underwhelming to say the least. Phoenix, Adept, PO and counterattack with some Adepts: 12 workers lost. Overall, Major (Special) played really great, better than I'm used to see (non-korean) Terrans play. Maybe I'm out of order, heh, but seems frustrating.
Educated thoughs, please.
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On June 21 2017 04:41 slit wrote:
Mmm... how do I post this without triggering people?
Okay. Is it me the only one who thinks Neeb played a little bit behind Major (Special) and won because Protoss defense is too good at the moment? There weren't any possible holes to attack Neeb's bases. Yeah, he was on point with the defense placements, but seemed unfair to me. I don't watch too much Starcraft 2 lately, and I'm playing less and less because work and life & all that, but it felt underwhelming to say the least. Phoenix, Adept, PO and counterattack with some Adepts: 12 workers lost. Overall, Major (Special) played really great, better than I'm used to see (non-korean) Terrans play. Maybe I'm out of order, heh, but seems frustrating.
Educated thoughs, please.
Phoenix adept is super strong defensively till around 150 supply when the lack of AoE becomes more and more problematic forcing a tech swap into Storm, Colossi, or Disruptors. If a Terran player is like "Hurp Durp. I shouldn't have adjust to the meta!" and plays aggressively against it, they'll get wrecked. If that same Terran player is instead decides to largely stay back at home and macro (putting a few widow mines around the map can do some nice work picking off units with the lack of detection from the Protoss player) then attacks when the transition starts to happen, they'll likely wreck.
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On June 21 2017 04:41 slit wrote:
Mmm... how do I post this without triggering people?
Okay. Is it me the only one who thinks Neeb played a little bit behind Major (Special) and won because Protoss defense is too good at the moment? There weren't any possible holes to attack Neeb's bases. Yeah, he was on point with the defense placements, but seemed unfair to me. I don't watch too much Starcraft 2 lately, and I'm playing less and less because work and life & all that, but it felt underwhelming to say the least. Phoenix, Adept, PO and counterattack with some Adepts: 12 workers lost. Overall, Major (Special) played really great, better than I'm used to see (non-korean) Terrans play. Maybe I'm out of order, heh, but seems frustrating.
Educated thoughs, please.
Lulz, if you think Neeb looked unfair you should go back and watch Season 1 Stats. Impenetrable defense against guys like INnoVation, ByuN, and TY.
But to answer your question, no, or to be more specific, not anymore. Adept/Phoenix used to be overpowered against Terran since it became the dominant PvT style at the same time as WM were nerfed, but then Blizzard nerfed Adepts (-10 HP) and since then Adept/Phoenix is pretty balanced as long as the Terran isn't stupidly suiciding Medivacs. Now the Korean meta is shifting away from Adepts and towards Chargelots, actually.
Neeb played better than MajOr, that's why it looked unfair.
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On June 21 2017 09:05 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 04:41 slit wrote:
Mmm... how do I post this without triggering people?
Okay. Is it me the only one who thinks Neeb played a little bit behind Major (Special) and won because Protoss defense is too good at the moment? There weren't any possible holes to attack Neeb's bases. Yeah, he was on point with the defense placements, but seemed unfair to me. I don't watch too much Starcraft 2 lately, and I'm playing less and less because work and life & all that, but it felt underwhelming to say the least. Phoenix, Adept, PO and counterattack with some Adepts: 12 workers lost. Overall, Major (Special) played really great, better than I'm used to see (non-korean) Terrans play. Maybe I'm out of order, heh, but seems frustrating.
Educated thoughs, please. Lulz, if you think Neeb looked unfair you should go back and watch Season 1 Stats. Impenetrable defense against guys like INnoVation, ByuN, and TY. But to answer your question, no, or to be more specific, not anymore. Adept/Phoenix used to be overpowered against Terran since it became the dominant PvT style at the same time as WM were nerfed, but then Blizzard nerfed Adepts (-10 HP) and since then Adept/Phoenix is pretty balanced as long as the Terran isn't stupidly suiciding Medivacs. Now the Korean meta is shifting away from Adepts and towards Chargelots, actually. Neeb played better than MajOr, that's why it looked unfair.
I don't know if we can actually say that Adept/Phoenix used to be overpowered. Yes, PvT winrates skyrocketed, but it was nerfed before Terrans really had a chance to adapt. Maybe with time and shifts in Terran builds, a strategy would have been devised to bring the style back into balance.
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On June 21 2017 08:10 Boggyb wrote:
Phoenix adept is super strong defensively till around 150 supply when the lack of AoE becomes more and more problematic forcing a tech swap into Storm, Colossi, or Disruptors. If a Terran player is like "Hurp Durp. I shouldn't have adjust to the meta!" and plays aggressively against it, they'll get wrecked. If that same Terran player is instead decides to largely stay back at home and macro (putting a few widow mines around the map can do some nice work picking off units with the lack of detection from the Protoss player) then attacks when the transition starts to happen, they'll likely wreck.
Thanks for the thorough explanation.
On June 21 2017 09:05 pvsnp wrote:
Lulz, if you think Neeb looked unfair you should go back and watch Season 1 Stats. Impenetrable defense against guys like INnoVation, ByuN, and TY.
But to answer your question, no, or to be more specific, not anymore. Adept/Phoenix used to be overpowered against Terran since it became the dominant PvT style at the same time as WM were nerfed, but then Blizzard nerfed Adepts (-10 HP) and since then Adept/Phoenix is pretty balanced as long as the Terran isn't stupidly suiciding Medivacs. Now the Korean meta is shifting away from Adepts and towards Chargelots, actually.
Neeb played better than MajOr, that's why it looked unfair.
Ok then, I stand corrected. No need to Lulz though 
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On June 21 2017 09:46 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 09:05 pvsnp wrote:On June 21 2017 04:41 slit wrote:
Mmm... how do I post this without triggering people?
Okay. Is it me the only one who thinks Neeb played a little bit behind Major (Special) and won because Protoss defense is too good at the moment? There weren't any possible holes to attack Neeb's bases. Yeah, he was on point with the defense placements, but seemed unfair to me. I don't watch too much Starcraft 2 lately, and I'm playing less and less because work and life & all that, but it felt underwhelming to say the least. Phoenix, Adept, PO and counterattack with some Adepts: 12 workers lost. Overall, Major (Special) played really great, better than I'm used to see (non-korean) Terrans play. Maybe I'm out of order, heh, but seems frustrating.
Educated thoughs, please. Lulz, if you think Neeb looked unfair you should go back and watch Season 1 Stats. Impenetrable defense against guys like INnoVation, ByuN, and TY. But to answer your question, no, or to be more specific, not anymore. Adept/Phoenix used to be overpowered against Terran since it became the dominant PvT style at the same time as WM were nerfed, but then Blizzard nerfed Adepts (-10 HP) and since then Adept/Phoenix is pretty balanced as long as the Terran isn't stupidly suiciding Medivacs. Now the Korean meta is shifting away from Adepts and towards Chargelots, actually. Neeb played better than MajOr, that's why it looked unfair. I don't know if we can actually say that Adept/Phoenix used to be overpowered. Yes, PvT winrates skyrocketed, but it was nerfed before Terrans really had a chance to adapt. Maybe with time and shifts in Terran builds, a strategy would have been devised to bring the style back into balance.
Whether or not Adept/Phoenix was actually overpowered was argued to hell and back at that time. Not going to rehash that controversy now, I'm sure you remember how heated it was. Suffice to say that Stats + herO won big tournaments, even top-tier Terrans were dying like flies, and the forums were on fire. Then Blizzard nerfed Adepts and things have been decent ever since (especially with Chargelots coming back).
Whether or not Terran would have found a counter in time is kind of a moot point now. There's historical precedent for the meta adapting (Adept/Phoenix evolved to counter tank pushes, after all) but there's also precedent for Blizzard's intervention being required (WM in 2014 for example).
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On June 21 2017 02:48 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2017 13:23 sharkie wrote:
neeb must surely already be one of the top foreigner earners in sc2 history, no? He's also the only foreigner to achieve the Triple Crown (title in each continent / region).
I feel like now we're in the region lock era, the triple crown should have a different definition. Under the new system, Neeb is like the only person who would have been eligible for it (unless a korean wins both blizzcon and Katowice).
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And I do think blizzard nerfed adept pheonix before terrans learnt how to deal with it. Terrans could build turrets and turtle till 150+ supply and he alright (although turtling against protoss lends other risks like them teching to storm etc).
But seeing how ridiculous looking Stats and herO won tournaments, it was probably a good move on their part. Watching protoss mass 50 adepts and kill every worker was putting off a lot of viewers (according to reddit's vocality on the subject ).
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EPT
