So I read that an early Roach Warrant can defend the attack NP or Banelings.
Yes, that is true but you can recall out and lose nothing.
Zerg spent Larvae and Gas for units he can not use.
So you already did a ton of damage if Zerg actually has Roaches out in time to deal with the first 5 Zealots.
If the Roaches come late you will kill a Queen or two and a few Drones or at least deny mining, you can also choose to focus the third and warp in more Zealots.

The MsC allows you to get out with little to no damage taken in case Zerg made enough units to crush your attack.
If he did not get enough unit you can trade very efficiently since Zealots are really strong vs. Zerg early on.

A Queen based defense is not really an option, Queens are too slow to really use their range by kiting. Zealots are actually pretty good if they outnumber Queens by enough, you can always pull back and wait for another warpin to attack with 9 or 13 Zealots while teching at home. Once Zerg has enough units -> Recall.

tl;dr
If Zerg can defend your attack easily, just recall. Zerg either spent a ton of Larvae or gas and in both cases you already break kind of even.

Olli

Austria24422 Posts

May 08 2013 13:20 GMT

#82

On May 08 2013 21:59 rEalGuapo wrote:
So I read that an early Roach Warrant can defend the attack NP or Banelings.
Yes, that is true but you can recall out and lose nothing.
Zerg spent Larvae and Gas for units he can not use.
So you already did a ton of damage if Zerg actually has Roaches out in time to deal with the first 5 Zealots.
If the Roaches come late you will kill a Queen or two and a few Drones or at least deny mining, you can also choose to focus the third and warp in more Zealots.

The MsC allows you to get out with little to no damage taken in case Zerg made enough units to crush your attack.
If he did not get enough unit you can trade very efficiently since Zealots are really strong vs. Zerg early on.

A Queen based defense is not really an option, Queens are too slow to really use their range by kiting. Zealots are actually pretty good if they outnumber Queens by enough, you can always pull back and wait for another warpin to attack with 9 or 13 Zealots while teching at home. Once Zerg has enough units -> Recall.

tl;dr
If Zerg can defend your attack easily, just recall. Zerg either spent a ton of Larvae or gas and in both cases you already break kind of even.

You don't. Nani's build delays tech heavily to do the 4 gate attack. That + no energy on the MSC makes it basically impossible to take a third anytime soon if you don't do damage. You don't even have a forge for upgrades which means lings can basically deny your third alone.
You have a stargate but that's not enough. You need a robo to take a third as zerg really doesn't need to go into hydras if there's a single stargate. If zerg saturates the third quickly and then pumps roaches it'll delay your third for ages. Which means you have to get immortals out first, at which point zerg can throw down the hydra den having delayed your colossi AND third.

It's a strong build but it has to do damage. I personally prefer HerO's old school +1 4gate or the newer version of it with a warp prism and 2 sentries. That one allows you to be safer while teching behind it and doesn't leave you as far behind if you have to recall imo.

FairForever

Canada2392 Posts

May 08 2013 13:33 GMT

#83

On May 03 2013 22:27 SteveNick wrote:
I've noticed that on a 2-player map, I can scout after gateway and my probe gets there in time to block their natural hatchery if they go 14pool. Seems pretty strong to be able to still block the hatchery using this build and a late scout.

Problem is a lot of zergs are now opening hatch-first if they don't see a probe scout - precisely because of the prevalence of nexus first and gate-expand openings and the reduction in Forge before nexus builds.

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

May 08 2013 13:40 GMT

#84

Hey, can some higher level Protoss add some extra information on how this plays out with various things a zerg can do?
I'm especially interested in how you people deal with when I (get to) do the following as zerg:
15 hatch
15/16pool
~16gas
wait for 3larva at the main hatch when the pool/hatch finishes
8zerglings
2queens
get speed asap and pull out of gas
continue to spam zerglings for a short while

I think I have only lost one game (of roughly 10games) with this build order upon scouting no canon at the front. It completly destroys any Protoss moveout with zealot/stalker/MSC and I usually can easily deny the wallin at the natural with the first 8zerglings and do a lot of damage (probes, pylons, stalkers, zealots) and either flat out win with the zergling spam or do more than enough damage to be far ahead and can transition easily into that double ups two base zergling/ultra style.
So, I'd like to have feedback upon what I should look out for and why it works from Protoss players with gateway expand experience. Because it feels like a proplayer like naniwa would of course know how to react to such a "cheap trick".

EatThePath

United States3943 Posts

May 29 2013 07:04 GMT

#85

On May 08 2013 22:40 Big J wrote:
Hey, can some higher level Protoss add some extra information on how this plays out with various things a zerg can do?
I'm especially interested in how you people deal with when I (get to) do the following as zerg:
15 hatch
15/16pool
~16gas
wait for 3larva at the main hatch when the pool/hatch finishes
8zerglings
2queens
get speed asap and pull out of gas
continue to spam zerglings for a short while

I think I have only lost one game (of roughly 10games) with this build order upon scouting no canon at the front. It completly destroys any Protoss moveout with zealot/stalker/MSC and I usually can easily deny the wallin at the natural with the first 8zerglings and do a lot of damage (probes, pylons, stalkers, zealots) and either flat out win with the zergling spam or do more than enough damage to be far ahead and can transition easily into that double ups two base zergling/ultra style.
So, I'd like to have feedback upon what I should look out for and why it works from Protoss players with gateway expand experience. Because it feels like a proplayer like naniwa would of course know how to react to such a "cheap trick".

Old thread at this point so I hope you are still interested in an answer.

First of all, your larvae saving would be scouted along with gas, so the protoss should know you are planning something, and they should go home if they had any stalkers. Personally, I gateway lowground on maps with a 3 building choke and move out with 2 zealots + msc, so I don't care if we trade units trying to get home, and I've never had anybody break in with mass lings. My zealot poke denies mining and creep at the natural and kills any queens that are alone (if you send the lings to counter).

I think you'll kill a lot of protosses who are unpracticed with the gateway style, but it doesn't really reflect on either strategy unless it's a demonstrably impossible hold.