|
United States4883 Posts
On April 29 2013 17:45 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 00:46 Saumure wrote:On April 29 2013 00:42 NVRLand wrote:
...
What's the purpose of this build?
...
Break the meta game? edit: ofc, every protoss i have faced on the ladder today did this. A roach warren does shut it down. Doesn't break the meta tosses have been doing this on ladder for the past couple months. It's honestly not that good especially if zerg is smart, some key giveaways to if he commits to the attack or not is a forge and tech. Whenever the toss goes for the 4-5 gate attack he puts only gateways in front and doesn't make a forge. Huge giveaway what's coming, sacrificing an overlord will give you even more information on what he is doing. A zerg should have a roach warren done and if the toss never attacks should be droning, if toss attacks will roach/ling and zerg is super far ahead. If zerg plays correctly and is not caught by surprise toss is going to be behind from the second he chose gateway expand. This really does rely on the zerg being caught by surprise. If toss doesn't do the 4-5 gate push and zerg doesn't make units he is going to be far ahead economically.
I'm a little confused why you say that this build is not good and that zerg will be far ahead economically. It's hard to tell exactly what happened in the Naniwa games, but for the most part it seemed as if this build definitely delays or hinders the 3rd base from going down while at the same time forcing some non-drones to be made. Even if protoss does almost no damage, recalling after the first warpin still forces a certain response from zerg; behind this, Naniwa would have 2 bases almost fully saturated, 4 gates, and a stargate against a zerg with 2 bases fully saturated and maybe an early lair.
All in all, I'd say things are more or less even in terms of the outcome, even with no damage dealt by the zealots.
|
If zerg plays correctly and is not caught by surprise toss is going to be behind from the second he chose gateway expand. This really does rely on the zerg being caught by surprise. If toss doesn't do the 4-5 gate push and zerg doesn't make units he is going to be far ahead economically.
I understand your point, but thenwhy was Naniwa so succesful with it?
|
|
|
On April 29 2013 21:20 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 17:45 blade55555 wrote:On April 29 2013 00:46 Saumure wrote:On April 29 2013 00:42 NVRLand wrote:
...
What's the purpose of this build?
...
Break the meta game? edit: ofc, every protoss i have faced on the ladder today did this. A roach warren does shut it down. Doesn't break the meta tosses have been doing this on ladder for the past couple months. It's honestly not that good especially if zerg is smart, some key giveaways to if he commits to the attack or not is a forge and tech. Whenever the toss goes for the 4-5 gate attack he puts only gateways in front and doesn't make a forge. Huge giveaway what's coming, sacrificing an overlord will give you even more information on what he is doing. A zerg should have a roach warren done and if the toss never attacks should be droning, if toss attacks will roach/ling and zerg is super far ahead. If zerg plays correctly and is not caught by surprise toss is going to be behind from the second he chose gateway expand. This really does rely on the zerg being caught by surprise. If toss doesn't do the 4-5 gate push and zerg doesn't make units he is going to be far ahead economically. As someone who uses Gateway Expands exclusively, I'm fairly confident in saying that paragraphs three and four are absolutely false. They were false at the end of WoL and they are even more false now that the Mothership Core exists. With builds like NaNiwa's, the Protoss should be able to cancel any attempt at taking a greedy third base, which is more than worth the investment that he commits to. If the Zerg player doesn't take a greedy third base, all NaNiwa has to do is force some units and he will be even or ahead, and any units he does warp-in are never under any risk because of Mass Recall. Equally, as the warp-ins are exclusively Zealot heavy, he is free to tech up behind his attack, which is exactly what he does (the Stargate normally goes down during the attack). The Zerg should have a Roach Warren done, but any Roach/Ling that gets made won't further the Zerg's aims. If you make Roach/Ling then the Protoss has already succeeded because you will either lose them cost inefficiently or have them do no damage whatsoever, assuming that the Protoss picks their engagements/Mass Recalls correctly.
Yeah, I really wonder what blade is talking about. It creates a totally different set of situations than the FFE line where tech and drone timings lead to many more windows of opportunity than FFE.
The way I think about it is, the protoss seizes the initiative by opening gateway. If the zerg wants to take it back, they have to sacrifice something else. The protoss can react to this and punish them. It's a much more interactive style with a much finer-grained decision tree.
|
On April 29 2013 00:58 Sated wrote:
I find it funny that NonY's 2 Gate Sentry Expand -> Stargate build has been doing the exact same things (denying third bases, killing Queens, forcing Lings) for ages, with the exact same Robotics Facility and Forge timings. It's also safer against Roach/Speedling/Baneling busts, better capable of scouting given that Hallucination is now free, isn't hard-countered in a BoX situation, and is much more capable of pressuring because of how good Force Fields are...
... of course, it's slightly less economical, but not so much so that I think the positives are cancelled out.
By the by, i'm going to update that thread really soon to be hots worthy, i have been playing phoenix also, do you prefer to transition into storm or collosus after? I prefer storm although it makes you quite vulnerable to hydra timings if you miscontrol.
@ blade55555 i agree with what the others said here, we could play some games if you think what you said applies to gateway timings in general, i reckon you are by far the better player between us but we could take some benchmark figures and decide who is ahead after say 10 minutes.
I'm Ecknareal.912 on EU if you wanna play.
|
About a month ago, I started watching replays from a GM called ABSTRACT. He was doing a very similar gate expand, but it was a little more aggressive. I've actually really come to respect just how powerful zealots are. Their low risk/disposable, and don't forget, an unmicroed roach will die to a zealot. I noticed in his replay pack, his most solid performances were against zerg, so I tried out his strategy. He would make 3 quick zealots and attack with them and his MSC. Behind this pressure he would expand, get +1 and attack again as soon as his 4 gates were up. He would literally flood zergs at 8 mins with like 20 +1 zealots. He also threw down a stargate right as soon as his 4 gates finished. If the zerg made enough roaches to counter his 4 gate, he would opt for early voidrays, and then attack again. If the damage had been done, and he didn't see roaches, he would opt for phoenix or oracles. His aggressive style kept the zerg from ever using any tech; it kept him ahead in worker count; and he got a lot of bm. I've since adopted his strategy and I'm destroying low to mid masters with it.
|
On April 29 2013 17:50 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 01:51 habermas wrote:
I fail to understand how any early pool from 6 to 11 doesn't just shut it down hard. I though the fact that you need to wall off against zerg and scout was established in WoL beta. This is straight up untrue by the way, the reason a wall off was required is that people used to go gas pool and against speedlings people thought you needed the wall, as it happens, when people dont get early speed, and you expand EARLIER, you have a defence in time. Also gateway openings that build a zealot roflstomp 6-10 pools, and if you don't believe me, i can demonstrate 
I wouldn't mind a replay of that, to be honest. Its a cool build with a lot of options, but I don't know what to do if my opponent doubles down and just builds a shit ton of lings to kill me once he scouts that I don't have a wall. I have vague ideas, but I would like a better idea of what my goals are when it happens. And at my skill level, I expect it to happen often.
|
On April 29 2013 17:45 blade55555 wrote:
Doesn't break the meta tosses have been doing this on ladder for the past couple months.
It's honestly not that good especially if zerg is smart, some key giveaways to if he commits to the attack or not is a forge and tech. Whenever the toss goes for the 4-5 gate attack he puts only gateways in front and doesn't make a forge. Huge giveaway what's coming, sacrificing an overlord will give you even more information on what he is doing.
Care to elaborate that part ? Why would it be a huge giveaway when in fact he has msc + stalker faster than most FFE builds and also he can easily kill the "once-was" safety overlord's cliff ?
|
On April 29 2013 22:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 17:50 Surili wrote:On April 29 2013 01:51 habermas wrote:
I fail to understand how any early pool from 6 to 11 doesn't just shut it down hard. I though the fact that you need to wall off against zerg and scout was established in WoL beta. This is straight up untrue by the way, the reason a wall off was required is that people used to go gas pool and against speedlings people thought you needed the wall, as it happens, when people dont get early speed, and you expand EARLIER, you have a defence in time. Also gateway openings that build a zealot roflstomp 6-10 pools, and if you don't believe me, i can demonstrate I wouldn't mind a replay of that, to be honest. Its a cool build with a lot of options, but I don't know what to do if my opponent doubles down and just builds a shit ton of lings to kill me once he scouts that I don't have a wall. I have vague ideas, but I would like a better idea of what my goals are when it happens. And at my skill level, I expect it to happen often.
Well it would depend what he is doing.
Against a 6 pool, by having your gate by your minerals your zealot will pop out about 5-10 seconds after the lings arrive, until then you need to have pulled half your probes to by time to keep the pylon alive, and then once the zealot is out send most of the probes home and keep the rest to protect the zealot while you wait for a second zealot. I tend to stop mining gas except for 1 probe so i can get warp gate, then once the lings are gone tech up to blink while expanding with like 5 gates total and go all in with an MSC and watch him die.
Against normal pool timing with early gas:
I usually scout after second pylon, which means i get to see if he took gas, so if it is a gas build you should add a gate next to your pylon that i place here like this: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SRUFE.jpg)
That is a full wall if you place the zealot properly, which 3 lings can attack, but it is enough to let you know if he is going all in or not, and if so you add another pylon to make it a 1 space gap.
I'll hang around the EU TL channels asking for games against early pools in a sec so i can gets some replays for you.
Sorry to derail the thread.
I'm personally really happy that this build has come up, because i always open gateway expo and so this cause players to play less greedy against my openings, meaning i have to do less damage to be even/ahead. :D
|
On April 29 2013 02:41 Kinon wrote:
What if the zerg goes for a 1 base roach all in on a map with wide ramp? Can you get enough units in time?
The Protoss will see the lack of expansion, they will probably see the early gas as well. Its not too difficult at that point to figure out what he's doing even if they don't see the roach warren. Protoss will adjust accordingly and be just fine.
|
I would like to see it vs one base roach though, just because I have not seen gateway vs one base roach since the beta when roaches had less range and warp gate finished earlier. I suspect protoss just forcefields the ramp twice then makes stalkers from 3 gates and uses a nexus cannon if needed. Sounds like an easy win for protoss.
|
On April 29 2013 23:08 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 02:41 Kinon wrote:
What if the zerg goes for a 1 base roach all in on a map with wide ramp? Can you get enough units in time? The Protoss will see the lack of expansion, they will probably see the early gas as well. Its not too difficult at that point to figure out what he's doing even if they don't see the roach warren. Protoss will adjust accordingly and be just fine.
You mean a 7RR or similar? I haven't ever had someone use it against me so i have no idea (at least not for 2 years), but what time does it usually hit? would they be able to do this retroactively? as in scout that you are doing this opening and then do it? I don't know.
|
I dont like gateway expands in pvz simply for the reason that you HAVE to do damage with it. If you open ffe you can build up a solid eco really quickly and then transition into whatever you want after that. Id also say that its safer to open ffe.
Regarding the point of the build: With a ffe you can also hit a +1 4gate timing to force units or punish very greedy play so i really see no reason to open with a gate expand that leaves you with no other option than doing damage while you can open safely, more economically and where you can choose your own playstyle depending on what your opponent is doing.
|
On April 29 2013 23:40 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 23:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On April 29 2013 02:41 Kinon wrote:
What if the zerg goes for a 1 base roach all in on a map with wide ramp? Can you get enough units in time? The Protoss will see the lack of expansion, they will probably see the early gas as well. Its not too difficult at that point to figure out what he's doing even if they don't see the roach warren. Protoss will adjust accordingly and be just fine. You mean a 7RR or similar? I haven't ever had someone use it against me so i have no idea (at least not for 2 years), but what time does it usually hit? would they be able to do this retroactively? as in scout that you are doing this opening and then do it? I don't know.
A good 7rr would be off of a 12 pool before overlord, so they will commit to it before scouting anything. By the time the roaches get across the map it probably wont even hit until 5:30. If you probe scout you will have no problem getting sentries out. But do you probe scout on a two player map? If I am going gateway on a 2 player map i dont probe scout at all.
|
On April 29 2013 23:41 onewaystyx wrote:
I dont like gateway expands in pvz simply for the reason that you HAVE to do damage with it. If you open ffe you can build up a solid eco really quickly and then transition into whatever you want after that. Id also say that its safer to open ffe.
Regarding the point of the build: With a ffe you can also hit a +1 4gate timing to force units or punish very greedy play so i really see no reason to open with a gate expand that leaves you with no other option than doing damage while you can open safely, more economically and where you can choose your own playstyle depending on what your opponent is doing.
I'm pretty sure i have a problem with everything you said, but let us check:
"I dont like gateway expands in pvz simply for the reason that you HAVE to do damage with it."
This may be true, but by this argument terrans should never open widow mines, or hellions, or banshees, or drops, etc etc. Personally i like to play the game knowing that my actions have consequences and therefore if i build attacking units, and they do damage, the i am trading to some extent.
"If you open ffe you can build up a solid eco really quickly and then transition into whatever you want after that."
Again, what you said is true, but also neglects the fact that in any given game of starcraft there are at least 2 players. Yes you do get a "solid eco", but the zerg will be on three bases building only drones. With a gateway opening he is only doing that if he is suicidal. So your "solid eco" is irrelevant as eco is only good with regards to the eco of the other player.
"Id also say that its safer to open ffe."
On what grounds? FFE is weaker to early pools, it is weaker to baneling busts due to lack of FF, it is often weaker against mutas because you have fewer units in general, and tech is likely to be slower due to the slower cybercore. I'm not saying it isn't safer in some circumstances, but again, it is a trade off, FFE is good against some things and weaker against others, the same is true for Gateway builds.
"Regarding the point of the build: With a ffe you can also hit a +1 4gate timing to force units or punish very greedy play..."
I'm afraid i'm going to appeal to authority here, Naniwa is one of the best protosses in the world. The "HerOic FFE" that you are referring to has been basically dead for about a year and a half now, maybe a bit less. I'm not saying Nani's build is the be all and end all, in fact i'm sure it isn't. This build is NOT the same, at all as that build, this hits at different timings (earlier if i am correct, but i'm not sure) and it killed the zergs 3rd base game after game. The reason for that is because against a gateway expand the zerg cannot take 3 bases at 4 minutes, because (s)he needs to prepare for the potential of a 4-5 gate all in, or a 3 gate pressure. So instead the 3rd base goes down at about 6 minutes, once the zerg is sure there is no pressure coming, and as such has less money to defend the push.
Essentially you are comparing apples and oranges, sure the builds sound similar, but the state of the game is such that they are likely to play out differently due to the different openings.
"...so i really see no reason to open with a gate expand that leaves you with no other option than doing damage while you can open safely, more economically and where you can choose your own playstyle depending on what your opponent is doing."
I sort of tackled this already, but i'll reiterate that all builds that build units other than economy (that is to say all builds) at some point have to do damage. It is called attacking. It is how you force mistakes from your opponent and get ahead. You yourself mentioned the old HerOic FFE, which would HAVE to do damage or be far behind. No matter that behind it you had "solid eco".
Turns out i was right, everything you said rubbed me the wrong way. 
On April 29 2013 23:45 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 23:40 Surili wrote:On April 29 2013 23:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On April 29 2013 02:41 Kinon wrote:
What if the zerg goes for a 1 base roach all in on a map with wide ramp? Can you get enough units in time? The Protoss will see the lack of expansion, they will probably see the early gas as well. Its not too difficult at that point to figure out what he's doing even if they don't see the roach warren. Protoss will adjust accordingly and be just fine. You mean a 7RR or similar? I haven't ever had someone use it against me so i have no idea (at least not for 2 years), but what time does it usually hit? would they be able to do this retroactively? as in scout that you are doing this opening and then do it? I don't know. A good 7rr would be off of a 12 pool before overlord, so they will commit to it before scouting anything. By the time the roaches get across the map it probably wont even hit until 5:30. If you probe scout you will have no problem getting sentries out. But do you probe scout on a two player map? If I am going gateway on a 2 player map i dont probe scout at all.
I'd like to see these "good 7rr" that you mention, because if there were any they would still be used. But anyway, I do probe scout as i said, even on 2 player maps, after second pylon, i don't know if that is early enough, although i know my cybercore finishes at 3:50, with a second zealot almost done (i chronoboost the first), so i guess so. Also you have to remember that vision up ramps has been reduced since 2010, so 7RR will be weaker, and protosses are like 100% better at defending.
This is theory craft though, because i have never seen it, and i don't generally tend to base my builds around defending builds that aren't ever used.
|
'Good' is a relative term here. It is good in that it gets the 7 roaches earlier than any other way you do it, without sacrificing anything compared to any other 7 rr build. It's still a very weak build, but if you are going to go one base roach the only reason to do it any differently is if you are trying to mask it which would require a hatch cancel at the very least.
As long as you probe scout it would be an auto-win. Just cancel the stalker and make a sentry, take second gas and add 2 gates. But as I don't probe scout (my build holds everything I have faced anyway) I have have no idea how the 7rr would work.
|
On April 29 2013 23:40 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 23:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On April 29 2013 02:41 Kinon wrote:
What if the zerg goes for a 1 base roach all in on a map with wide ramp? Can you get enough units in time? The Protoss will see the lack of expansion, they will probably see the early gas as well. Its not too difficult at that point to figure out what he's doing even if they don't see the roach warren. Protoss will adjust accordingly and be just fine. You mean a 7RR or similar? I haven't ever had someone use it against me so i have no idea (at least not for 2 years), but what time does it usually hit? would they be able to do this retroactively? as in scout that you are doing this opening and then do it? I don't know.
I don't think any Zerg uses a 7RR in this day and age. 5:30 is about right for timing. The first scouting overlord is often relied on to provide high ground vision. its a blind cheese, you cant reactively 7rr anymore than you can reactively 10 pool. It can sometimes work against a gate expand, but not if the Protoss player plays intelligently. It's pretty terrible against forge expands unless the Protoss player doesn't scout, but in that case a straight up 10 pool would also do a lot of damage. It's risky without any upside so I don't think any Zerg roach rushes anymore.
|
I think one of the key weaknesses of this build is displayed in game 3? of the finals set against Leenock on Akilon Wastes. After doing the early 4 gate aggressions and then going into both robo and stargate and starting upgrades on two bases with slightly delayed gas means you need to be defense for a while after the 4 gate. Assuming the Zerg doesn't do something silly like the 4 min third base blind and they play safe enough there isn't much you can do in the midgame.
In the aforementioned game, Leenock quickly rushed up to five bases virtually unopposed once it got to the midgame. Naniwa's large investment into tech on 2 bases meant that even though Naniwa secured a third, Leenock simply had too much economy which translates into 39 mutas at once.
|
On April 29 2013 21:20 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 17:45 blade55555 wrote:On April 29 2013 00:46 Saumure wrote:On April 29 2013 00:42 NVRLand wrote:
...
What's the purpose of this build?
...
Break the meta game? edit: ofc, every protoss i have faced on the ladder today did this. A roach warren does shut it down. Doesn't break the meta tosses have been doing this on ladder for the past couple months. It's honestly not that good especially if zerg is smart, some key giveaways to if he commits to the attack or not is a forge and tech. Whenever the toss goes for the 4-5 gate attack he puts only gateways in front and doesn't make a forge. Huge giveaway what's coming, sacrificing an overlord will give you even more information on what he is doing. A zerg should have a roach warren done and if the toss never attacks should be droning, if toss attacks will roach/ling and zerg is super far ahead. If zerg plays correctly and is not caught by surprise toss is going to be behind from the second he chose gateway expand. This really does rely on the zerg being caught by surprise. If toss doesn't do the 4-5 gate push and zerg doesn't make units he is going to be far ahead economically. As someone who uses Gateway expands exclusively, I'm fairly confident in saying that paragraphs three and four are absolutely false. They were false at the end of WoL and they are even more false now that the Mothership Core exists. ...
As someone who uses Gateway expands exclusively, I'm fairly confident in saying that blade55555 is pretty accurate. Waiting until 21 to build a nexus instead of 17, as Naniwa did, and using chronos on the core instead of probes does sacrifice economy, and staying on one gas for that long also sacrifices tech. It's not a gigantic advantage, but a considerable one if the attack does zero damage, and a third can be defended. The problem I noticed from both TLO in the game that he lost, and SortOf was that both timed their thirds very poorly. They got them too late to assist with drone production, but still early enough to be attacked. The worst was when SortOf, after seeing the proxy pylon go down, started a third right next to the proxy pylon. The hard part is timing the switch from drone production to army production, which has to be done re-actively since there are so many potential variations of the attack.
Also, a 7RR hits around 5:45, significantly before warp gate finishes, and the majority of players who gate-expand probably have no idea how to defend it, so if you're up against a player who you know is going to use it, it's a good change-up in a BoX series.
|
is it possible to hold 7 roach rush ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
