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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
Also, a 7RR hits around 5:45, significantly before warp gate finishes, and the majority of players who gate-expand probably have no idea how to defend it, so if you're up against a player who you know is going to use it, it's a good change-up in a BoX series. To be honest, I only know how to defend 7RR with FEE. Could you elaborate a bit? | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On April 30 2013 01:45 Kinon wrote: To be honest, I only know how to defend 7RR with FEE. Could you elaborate a bit? I wrote a guide on defending zerg cheese with a gate-expand: Gate-Expands in PvZ So to quote myself: "If you're ready to start your cybernetics core and your opponent still hasn't expanded, it's time to go into panic mode. First, halt all probe production. Second, build the cybernetics core in the main, if you can. Against a roach rush, it might get sniped. You'll still be ahead if that happens, but it does suck to lose it 15 seconds before warp gate is ready to finish. Third, if you went double gas, pull one probe from each gas, you need the minerals. Fourth, get up 2 more gateways on your wall to have 3 gates total. Fifth, chrono boost zealots from your first gateway. Now resume probe production. Sixth, keep scouting. Check his third. Check his fourth. Check your third. Check your main. Quadruple check his natural. Find out what's going on. Use all your chronoboosts on gateways. Start warpgate as soon as the core finishes. Now, here's what to do once you see what's happening. ... Roaches You should be able to take map control and see the roaches coming. A 7 Roach Rush will arrive around 5:45. Kite your stalkers to keep the roaches from killing them off before warpgate is done. If the wall is busted down, which it likely will be, pull probes from your natural to help your zealots contain the roaches, and protect the stalkers. Once warpgate finishes, you'll be in the clear in short order. If they target the core down, then you'll have a lot of time to get some free shots in on the roaches, and the loss of warpgate research won't be such a big deal." My opening is slightly different from NaNiwa's, so the timing of my core is on 22 instead of 18. The important thing is to get the 2nd and 3rd gateway down as early as possible, which requires a probe cut, and maintain constant gateway production with all your chronos on the 3 gateways. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On April 30 2013 01:38 FlyingBeer wrote: As someone who uses Gateway expands exclusively, I'm fairly confident in saying that blade55555 is pretty accurate. Waiting until 21 to build a nexus instead of 17, as Naniwa did, and using chronos on the core instead of probes does sacrifice economy, and staying on one gas for that long also sacrifices tech. As someone who uses gateway expands exclusively, well before the dreamhack, I want to mention something else: being eco or not is entirely your choice, and you can make that choice reactively. You do NOT have to chrono the core, you can send a scout on the map, see if he's taking a fast third, if he does you can go for Naniwa's pressure and spend a couple chronos on your warp. If not, you can put all your chronos into probes and drop your tech. The probe cut when you drop a 21 nexus is also shorter than when you drop a 15-17 nexus. As a matter of a fact, when I macro decently with an eco 1-gate expand, I often have more probes at the 10' mark than out of a FFE. I can reach 62-64 probes by that time. Now go and check your latest replay with your FFE and see how many you have.. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On April 30 2013 01:59 Nyast wrote: As someone who uses gateway expands exclusively, well before the dreamhack, I want to mention something else: being eco or not is entirely your choice, and you can make that choice reactively. You do NOT have to chrono the core, you can send a scout on the map, see if he's taking a fast third, if he does you can go for Naniwa's pressure and spend a couple chronos on your warp. If not, you can put all your chronos into probes and drop your tech. The probe cut when you drop a 21 nexus is also shorter than when you drop a 15-17 nexus. As a matter of a fact, when I macro decently with an eco 1-gate expand, I often have more probes at the 10' mark than out of a FFE. I can reach 62-64 probes by that time. Now go and check your latest replay with your FFE and see how many you have.. FFE relies on pylon-blocking the enemy hatch to be cost-effective. That's why almost all pros have switched to nexus first, which does get a bigger economy than gate-first. They either scout and delay the hatch with probe micro, or no scout and get a ridiculously early nexus. Also, how is somebody who uses gate-expands exclusively supposed to check their latest replay with FFE? | ||
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qapuk
United States71 Posts
stopped doing forge fe for well over a year now, I strictly play with gate expand. Even the people responding with the "blue" background featured answers are slightly wrong in my opinion. In general, I have absolutely no problem vs any form of zerg all in with gateway expand. I've always believed gateway expand is alot better than forge expo, and I am very happy that naniwa execute a slightly different BO than mine. Here, I am going to challenge a specific number of responses that says gateway expands can't defend "this" or can't defend "that". Let's first talk about the cheeses. Gateway expand is BETTER than forge expo against cheese. You can defend 6 pool (ones with and w/o drones pull) by NOT walling off. If you wall off, you'll lose your gateway, and you'll just lose. It is best to protect your zealot from full surround with probes and try to get the stalker out asap. Stalker is the only way to push him out of your base without speedling. Then counter 4 gate. This is 100x faster AND stronger attack than if you were to defend a 6pool with forge expo. You will most likely win from here. Second, let's talk about the all in involving gas. 1. Any form of speedling all in will involve the zerg getting gas first or at same time as pool. Now, there are a few champions out there that can prove me wrong and defend this with ONE gate expo. But this is one of the situation where I will deviate and just add 2 more gateway when warp gate tech is about halfway done. THREE gateway expand does not mess up your build, it is safe, it is strong, and you can attack with an even stronger counter push (more energy on sentry). 2. There's a 1 base or two base roach rush. This is when the zerg gets gas after pool. Again, 3 gate expand can provide sufficient defense with slight deviation from standard 1 gate expo. Forge fe only allows you to defend, and can't counter. Same with banelings. (in short,... if he gets gas, play 3 gate expo, there's no reason zerg needs this early gas other than to attack you). The third scenario is when you they don't take before expo. Welp! Then I guess, you can get away with 1 gate expo in almost all cases. I don't know how early nexus naniwa gets his, but I get mine when my supply is 21/26~ or 22/26~ with constant chronoboost on gateway tech. So ideally the warp gate time is close to a 4 gate timing. And the nexus (for supply) and warp tech finishes just in time for a round of units. gate core nexus pylon gate gate. A more rare situation I want to address is that oh so lame proxy hatch/spine push/in base proxy hatch. I have no problem defending this by just adding a robo (1 gate robo gate gate or 3 gate robo). How many times you guys lost against this with forge expo?  An important thing to note doing gateway expand is you HAVE to attack. This is not a defensive macro build. You build units, you go attack! The idea behind this is you can make probes AND units (2 nexus, 3/4 gates) while zerg makes unit to defend. Tech to you choice while attacking (twilight, robo or stargate), Recall home and you should be saturated with probes WITH a tech. Next important note is, you are NOT ahead, you're only equalizing the game. Same number of bases and same level tech. Usually you can punish 3rd pretty well. Most high level zerg I've met don't take a third, they do 2 base tech instead when they see gate expand. Naniwa does exactly the same thing I do and I've been doing this for 2 years now in WOL, only exception is he gets his 4th gate really fast. I wait till I am ready to move out then I get 4th/5th gate depending on late it is. My point here is this style is very safe in many cases. You're not playing greedy, why wouldnt it be safe? | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On April 30 2013 02:07 Sated wrote: Sacrifice economy relative to what? NaNiwa's build is basically the fastest Nexus you can have after opening Gate/Core. If you're comparing economy with a Gate/Nexus or FFE opening then your comparison is irrelevant; all of these expansion types force the Zerg to use a different opening and so cross-comparing them is pretty irrelevant given (Gate/Nexus and FFE are somewhat comparable, but even then it's quite facetious). Going gate-core and taking a 21 Nexus doesn't force your opponent to do anything. It does allow them to take an earlier third. It's the pressure you put on with it that forces your opponent to respond. And you have to get the units and tech to attack before your opponent has to get the units and tech to defend, which is determined by the rush distance, so their economy or tech will always be taking a smaller hit than yours if they respond properly. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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qapuk
United States71 Posts
Edited: yup Sated and i are thinking the same thing. Edit #2: I personally think taking a 3rd as a zerg is the MOST riskiest thing they can do. Remember mc's nexus cancel 4 gate? I can challenge almost anyone to defend a 4 gate with gas after 3rd. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 30 2013 02:42 FlyingBeer wrote: Going gate-core and taking a 21 Nexus doesn't force your opponent to do anything. It does allow them to take an earlier third. It's the pressure you put on with it that forces your opponent to respond. And you have to get the units and tech to attack before your opponent has to get the units and tech to defend, which is determined by the rush distance, so their economy or tech will always be taking a smaller hit than yours if they respond properly. I apologize if I'm totally wrong, I just wanted to step in with a theorycraft query: If you get an earlier core instead of an earlier nexus, you claim that zerg can take a faster 3rd. The tradeoff for taking an earlier nexus is greater economy for later gas units (warp gate, stargate, robo, DTs), while we could say the converse is true for getting core first. So while it's true that you could still pressure with 2-3 zealots at about the same time as you could with the 4-gate build, you delay stargate AND warp gate for at least another minute. Which I suppose is fine if you decide to attack a minute later with more units. Naniwa clearly showed that the gate expand into a 4-gate denied 3rds that got down too late and delayed 3rds if they hadn't gone down by 6:30. Are you saying that the only big weakness to this build is the zerg getting down 3 hatches very early? (Like JD blindly did that one game). As opposed to getting an earlier nexus? Wouldn't 3 early hatches be just as strong against later tech, if not stronger? I'm just not convinced that there's a huge difference between getting a nexus out faster and getting warp gate out faster with respects to the zerg economy. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On April 30 2013 02:55 qapuk wrote: FlyingBeer, you are nearly wrong in almost every statement made in that last post. It forces zer to play more safe, get faster gas. if they dont get this gas, they will lose. Gate expand is lethal. You can attack without tech you have sentries. You can attack as soon as your nexus finishes, hit his 3rd, force alot of units, and mass recall. Edited: yup Sated and i are thinking the same thing. Edit #2: I personally think taking a 3rd as a zerg is the MOST riskiest thing they can do. Remember mc's nexus cancel 4 gate? I can challenge almost anyone to defend a 4 gate with gas after 3rd. You make it sound as if Zerg can't both get early speed and a third. The Zerg will spot the nexus and will know that it's not a 4 gate or a three gate with a bunch of sentries or an MC nexus cancel. So they will insta throw down the third. Watch any GM Zerg stream and that is precisely what they do. Naniwa has a pretty interesting attack timing, but it's nowhere near certain that it will deny the third every time. The debate currently is who invests more, the Protoss and the Zerg. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
You are not taking in account that in the classic "toss FFE vs Z 4min 3rd", Z is already ahead by default, so unless there is some preset build idea (like for a BoX), I'm pretty sure any toss is happy to trade some eco to delay the Z eco burst by forcing roach and lings. | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
"Going gate-core and taking a 21 Nexus doesn't force your opponent to do anything. ... It's the pressure you put on with it that forces your opponent to respond." I was pointing out a very important distinction. No, SC2John, 2-base tech is also an effective counter. You can get a normally timed 3rd and defend the push too. The most effective 3-base method that I've seen is either the mass queen opening or ling/baneling to defend and deny a Protoss' fast third which forces the Protoss into a 2-base all-in. The reason SortOf and TLO struggled against it was because they were taking late thirds before Naniwa's attack, which is the worst time to take a third against this attack. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
The zerg has to keep his eyes wide open the entire time, whereas vs a ffe it is basically sdddddddd forever and a day and they're just so absolutely used to how that works out. Every single time you can move out with something towards the zerg. It is going to force units one way or another and if he takes an early 3rd with late gas, well naniwa has already proven how this works out. I've watched State do this time after time after time. He almost always 1 gate expands and moves out with 2 zealots and a msc with 2 sentries in production behind it. He doesn't do the 4 gate pressure that we're talking about here rather he prefers to just do a light poke to get the zerg out of the proverbial sddddd mode. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On April 30 2013 03:41 shivver wrote: I'm going to have to agree with the guys on the 1 gate expand side of things. The zerg has to keep his eyes wide open the entire time, whereas vs a ffe it is basically sdddddddd forever and a day and they're just so absolutely used to how that works out. Every single time you can move out with something towards the zerg. It is going to force units one way or another and if he takes an early 3rd with late gas, well naniwa has already proven how this works out. I've watched State do this time after time after time. He almost always 1 gate expands and moves out with 2 zealots and a msc with 2 sentries in production behind it. He doesn't do the 4 gate pressure that we're talking about here rather he prefers to just do a light poke to get the zerg out of the proverbial sddddd mode. Yes, it's more about creating more uncertainty and more branches than seeing how two builds stack up on certain benchmarks. For example, if I scouted 3rd hatch before pool, I would just chrono units and send them to the natural. No matter what happens, you've forced the zerg into a certain response (whatever that is) that you can exploit. Because you're attacking, you have nearly perfect information on where they stand, and they are wondering if you have a 4gate coming or a stargate or dts or what. Because you have a msc, you can go home with all your units whenever you want and it's like you did tons of larvae use damage without ever moving out. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 30 2013 03:28 FlyingBeer wrote: qapuk, I think you should reread what I wrote: "Going gate-core and taking a 21 Nexus doesn't force your opponent to do anything. ... It's the pressure you put on with it that forces your opponent to respond." I was pointing out a very important distinction. No, SC2John, 2-base tech is also an effective counter. You can get a normally timed 3rd and defend the push too. The most effective 3-base method that I've seen is either the mass queen opening or ling/baneling to defend and deny a Protoss' fast third which forces the Protoss into a 2-base all-in. The reason SortOf and TLO struggled against it was because they were taking late thirds before Naniwa's attack, which is the worst time to take a third against this attack. Maybe I didn't make this clear. If zerg gets a "regularly-timed 3rd", they can defend it with lings and roaches. At this point, the protoss has pulled ahead because the zerg has a 3rd base and is building units and not drones. This opens a time period where protoss has equal economy with zerg with 4 gates, a stargate, and colossus/forge on the way. With good scouting, this gives protoss plenty of room to take an early 3rd of their own (and protect it) OR allows for a killer 2-base timing attack (as witnessed in the game on Planet S between Naniwa and Leenock). While zerg still has the potential to catch up and pull way the hell ahead in economy, the point is that the 4-gate has exposed a vulnerability, which is what a lot of PvZ is anyway. All in all, I wouldn't analyze these games TOO much. I think they're the basis for some good ideas, but the strategies used in most of the games were meta piled on top of meta piled on top of meta. In half of the games, the 4-gate was even blind countered. The only question here is the validity of opening with a 4-gate, which, in pretty much every respect, seems worth it because you shouldn't lose units and because you will definitely even out in economy (at least for a short while) against a zerg opponent who would otherwise pull WAAAAAAAY ahead versus any other non-aggressive gate opening. | ||
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serpan
Sweden35 Posts
This is the strategy I use to counter it when scouted. Works against low master tosses. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
On April 30 2013 21:55 serpan wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300818 This is the strategy I use to counter it when scouted. Works against low master tosses. I wouldn't keep doing that if I were you, I really don't even know how that is working for you against low masters honestly. Voidray + ffs as you hit the front and you're going to have a very rough rest of the day | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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moofang
508 Posts
On April 29 2013 23:00 Surili wrote: Well it would depend what he is doing. Against a 6 pool, by having your gate by your minerals your zealot will pop out about 5-10 seconds after the lings arrive, until then you need to have pulled half your probes to by time to keep the pylon alive, and then once the zealot is out send most of the probes home and keep the rest to protect the zealot while you wait for a second zealot. I tend to stop mining gas except for 1 probe so i can get warp gate, then once the lings are gone tech up to blink while expanding with like 5 gates total and go all in with an MSC and watch him die. Against normal pool timing with early gas: I usually scout after second pylon, which means i get to see if he took gas, so if it is a gas build you should add a gate next to your pylon that i place here like this: That is a full wall if you place the zealot properly, which 3 lings can attack, but it is enough to let you know if he is going all in or not, and if so you add another pylon to make it a 1 space gap. I'll hang around the EU TL channels asking for games against early pools in a sec so i can gets some replays for you. Sorry to derail the thread. I'm personally really happy that this build has come up, because i always open gateway expo and so this cause players to play less greedy against my openings, meaning i have to do less damage to be even/ahead. :D Actually, a small detailed guide on a separate thread demonstrating holds against various ling-based aggressions with a gate FE is something I would really want to see. I still feel paranoid whenever I try gate expands and eventually end up falling back to FFE | ||
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