EPT[G/D] NaNiwa's Gate Expand into 4Gate - Page 4
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igay
Australia1178 Posts
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Aspera
6 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On May 02 2013 13:19 Aspera wrote: Does anyone know why Naniwa never goes for an oracle after the zealot attack, no matter how much damage he does? Seems like it would be a nice transition if you've hurt Z pretty bad. I imagine the only reason is that it doesn't deal with any of the zerg transitions better than a void ray or phoenixes. 1) First thing to note is that if Naniwa is successful in denying the zerg's 3rd base, zerg is going to be GAS and LARVA starved, not mineral starved; therefore, making spores to deal with oracles is not a huge deal at that point in the game. 2) In the case of a counterattack with roach/ling, a void ray is going to be infinitely better than an oracle at defending. Generally if you've done a lot of damage to the zerg, you can expect something like a hydra/ling or ling/baneling all-in to follow (because zerg knows they're too far behind to win in a straight macro game). 3) In the case of zerg simply taking some extra gases and getting a delayed 3rd, phoenixes are going to be able to shut down vision, snipe a couple of queens, force spores, etc., whereas a void ray would just be sitting uselessly idle and an oracle would be easily swatted aside by a few spores. 4) Phoenixes will discourage the zerg player from transitioning into mutas, meaning that you are fairly safe to assume you're up against a ground-based army. If you make an oracle before phoenixes, it's possible for zerg to overwhelm you with mutas before you get the phoenix count you need and cause you quite a bit of economic damage. Hope these are some solid reasons why a void ray or phoenix transition makes more sense! I'm not really up to date on EXACTLY how this build works, but using basic reasoning and strategic thinking, I think we can always find a good solution to questions in SC2. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On May 02 2013 13:49 SC2John wrote: I imagine the only reason is that it doesn't deal with any of the zerg transitions better than a void ray or phoenixes. 1) First thing to note is that if Naniwa is successful in denying the zerg's 3rd base, zerg is going to be GAS and LARVA starved, not mineral starved; therefore, making spores to deal with oracles is not a huge deal at that point in the game. 2) In the case of a counterattack with roach/ling, a void ray is going to be infinitely better than an oracle at defending. Generally if you've done a lot of damage to the zerg, you can expect something like a hydra/ling or ling/baneling all-in to follow (because zerg knows they're too far behind to win in a straight macro game). 3) In the case of zerg simply taking some extra gases and getting a delayed 3rd, phoenixes are going to be able to shut down vision, snipe a couple of queens, force spores, etc., whereas a void ray would just be sitting uselessly idle and an oracle would be easily swatted aside by a few spores. 4) Phoenixes will discourage the zerg player from transitioning into mutas, meaning that you are fairly safe to assume you're up against a ground-based army. If you make an oracle before phoenixes, it's possible for zerg to overwhelm you with mutas before you get the phoenix count you need and cause you quite a bit of economic damage. Hope these are some solid reasons why a void ray or phoenix transition makes more sense! I'm not really up to date on EXACTLY how this build works, but using basic reasoning and strategic thinking, I think we can always find a good solution to questions in SC2. I agree with phoenixes being a great choice to take away the zerg's map vision and maybe get a couple queens to slow them down. However, I think adding in an Oracle would really help the build. Even if it isn't able to get much done on offense, it can help the protoss take a super early third. Just leaving it over the building 3rd nexus would prevent the base from being cancelled due to any number of lings. This means the Toss can stay on even bases far into the game, which sounds really scary for a Zerg. And I don't think making one Oracle would put you in substantially more danger of dying to mutas. Plus it gives you a lot of utility, like helping to take out creep tumors even. And for it to be able to do all these things, it needs energy, so it should be started as soon as possible so it can build that energy up. Don't know if it's better to build it before or after the phoenixes, but I think it should be gotten. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 01 2013 18:13 igay wrote: seems like its becoming standard to open gate vs zerg nowdays It is until protosses remember why they stopped doing it ^^. It's great to throw into a box and stuff on big maps but honestly as a standard build it's just not good as if zerg plays correctly they can be ahead economically from the get go especially if they hatch first then gas before pool. | ||
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JSK
United States133 Posts
On May 02 2013 15:16 blade55555 wrote: It is until protosses remember why they stopped doing it ^^. It's great to throw into a box and stuff on big maps but honestly as a standard build it's just not good as if zerg plays correctly they can be ahead economically from the get go especially if they hatch first then gas before pool. Protosses stopped doing this in WOL. This is HOTS. We have MSC now. But Blade is right that gate first as a standard build allows hatch first. And that is certainly a problem. I think that mixing in gate first with FFE to a percentage high enough that makes it still a risk for zerg to go hatch first could be the right thing to do. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 02 2013 15:33 JSK wrote: Protosses stopped doing this in WOL. This is HOTS. We have MSC now. But Blade is right that gate first as a standard build allows hatch first. And that is certainly a problem. I think that mixing in gate first with FFE to a percentage high enough that makes it still a risk for zerg to go hatch first could be the right thing to do. This is hots you do have MSC but it doesn't take away that this allows zerg to be greedy. Protoss has to do some sort of attack that does economic damage to the zerg. If he doesn't or he tries and fails he kind of loses. The 4-5 gate if that doesn't kill the third or kill at least quiet a few drones, zerg should win no problem. If the protoss does stargate and then goes into a normal macro game, zerg is ahead unless he makes units expecting the 4-5 gate or the stargate does economic damage. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 02 2013 15:16 blade55555 wrote: It is until protosses remember why they stopped doing it ^^. It's great to throw into a box and stuff on big maps but honestly as a standard build it's just not good as if zerg plays correctly they can be ahead economically from the get go especially if they hatch first then gas before pool. yeah, as a goto build this feels very instable. I think I have killed like 5 Protosses with slowlings and speedlings in the last days when they tried to do such a build and others just died in the mid-lategame because they let me drone way to happily. Also I think that mass queen + base swarm host of two bases is incredibly strong against this build, as 3-4 queens just shut down the early MsC+stalker attack and then you can be half way over the map with your creep when your swarm hosts start to spawn. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On May 01 2013 18:13 igay wrote: seems like its becoming standard to open gate vs zerg nowdays I think it's mandatory on a 4 player map. On a 4 player map you can blindly do your 1gate expand build without even caring if your probe finds their base in time. With FFE you're kind of rolling the dice. | ||
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Pyloss
Germany1515 Posts
At which time does the Robo comes? And do you build 4 or 5 phenix? And when u build a third? Sorry for all the questions, but i really want to play that build, looks so good. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
On April 29 2013 01:51 habermas wrote: I fail to understand how any early pool from 6 to 11 doesn't just shut it down hard. I though the fact that you need to wall off against zerg and scout was established in WoL beta. You should watch parting vs life from gsl last night and I think you'll have a very different point of view on this | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
On May 02 2013 15:44 blade55555 wrote: This is hots you do have MSC but it doesn't take away that this allows zerg to be greedy. Protoss has to do some sort of attack that does economic damage to the zerg. If he doesn't or he tries and fails he kind of loses. The 4-5 gate if that doesn't kill the third or kill at least quiet a few drones, zerg should win no problem. If the protoss does stargate and then goes into a normal macro game, zerg is ahead unless he makes units expecting the 4-5 gate or the stargate does economic damage. I agree with you to an extent but the nexus is pretty damn fast (21 supply) and if Zerg takes a fast third they either lose it or have to make a bunch of units to hold the zealot push leaving Protoss at least in an even position. If the Protoss is smart and Zerg hasn't taken a fast 3rd, they can just warp in 2-3 sentries and continue as per normal. I doubt a 21 nexus vs 7:00 3rd from Zerg is a worse position than ffe vs 5:00 3rd? | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
On May 03 2013 10:33 MateShade wrote: I agree with you to an extent but the nexus is pretty damn fast (21 supply) and if Zerg takes a fast third they either lose it or have to make a bunch of units to hold the zealot push leaving Protoss at least in an even position. If the Protoss is smart and Zerg hasn't taken a fast 3rd, they can just warp in 2-3 sentries and continue as per normal. I doubt a 21 nexus vs 7:00 3rd from Zerg is a worse position than ffe vs 5:00 3rd? I really don't think it is, I just think zergs don't like facing it and thus they're trying to downplay it as much as possible. We'll see though, soon enough | ||
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JSK
United States133 Posts
On May 03 2013 11:26 shivver wrote: I really don't think it is, I just think zergs don't like facing it and thus they're trying to downplay it as much as possible. We'll see though, soon enough I definitely am getting this vibe as well. | ||
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JSK
United States133 Posts
On April 30 2013 02:40 qapuk wrote: Hey guys, I've hit top 8 master a few seasons, and I want to address several misconception here. I stopped doing forge fe for well over a year now, I strictly play with gate expand. Even the people responding with the "blue" background featured answers are slightly wrong in my opinion. In general, I have absolutely no problem vs any form of zerg all in with gateway expand. I've always believed gateway expand is alot better than forge expo, and I am very happy that naniwa execute a slightly different BO than mine. Here, I am going to challenge a specific number of responses that says gateway expands can't defend "this" or can't defend "that". Let's first talk about the cheeses. Gateway expand is BETTER than forge expo against cheese. You can defend 6 pool (ones with and w/o drones pull) by NOT walling off. If you wall off, you'll lose your gateway, and you'll just lose. It is best to protect your zealot from full surround with probes and try to get the stalker out asap. Stalker is the only way to push him out of your base without speedling. Then counter 4 gate. This is 100x faster AND stronger attack than if you were to defend a 6pool with forge expo. You will most likely win from here. Second, let's talk about the all in involving gas. 1. Any form of speedling all in will involve the zerg getting gas first or at same time as pool. Now, there are a few champions out there that can prove me wrong and defend this with ONE gate expo. But this is one of the situation where I will deviate and just add 2 more gateway when warp gate tech is about halfway done. THREE gateway expand does not mess up your build, it is safe, it is strong, and you can attack with an even stronger counter push (more energy on sentry). 2. There's a 1 base or two base roach rush. This is when the zerg gets gas after pool. Again, 3 gate expand can provide sufficient defense with slight deviation from standard 1 gate expo. Forge fe only allows you to defend, and can't counter. Same with banelings. (in short,... if he gets gas, play 3 gate expo, there's no reason zerg needs this early gas other than to attack you). The third scenario is when you they don't take before expo. Welp! Then I guess, you can get away with 1 gate expo in almost all cases. I don't know how early nexus naniwa gets his, but I get mine when my supply is 21/26~ or 22/26~ with constant chronoboost on gateway tech. So ideally the warp gate time is close to a 4 gate timing. And the nexus (for supply) and warp tech finishes just in time for a round of units. gate core nexus pylon gate gate. A more rare situation I want to address is that oh so lame proxy hatch/spine push/in base proxy hatch. I have no problem defending this by just adding a robo (1 gate robo gate gate or 3 gate robo). How many times you guys lost against this with forge expo?  An important thing to note doing gateway expand is you HAVE to attack. This is not a defensive macro build. You build units, you go attack! The idea behind this is you can make probes AND units (2 nexus, 3/4 gates) while zerg makes unit to defend. Tech to you choice while attacking (twilight, robo or stargate), Recall home and you should be saturated with probes WITH a tech. Next important note is, you are NOT ahead, you're only equalizing the game. Same number of bases and same level tech. Usually you can punish 3rd pretty well. Most high level zerg I've met don't take a third, they do 2 base tech instead when they see gate expand. Naniwa does exactly the same thing I do and I've been doing this for 2 years now in WOL, only exception is he gets his 4th gate really fast. I wait till I am ready to move out then I get 4th/5th gate depending on late it is. My point here is this style is very safe in many cases. You're not playing greedy, why wouldnt it be safe? I have one quibble with this: you say there is no reason for a zerg to take an early gas unless to be aggressive, but actually they are advised to ALWAYS get an early gas in order to defend their third from gateway pressure against gateway first builds. I know this because i also read the zerg help me thread. Anyway I agree that gateway expands are boss. But I feel like I can't do them too much because Z will go hatch first. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
- economy is on a similar level; that is due to the fact that you don't 9-scout, and that your probe cut is shorter ( assuming you chrono all your probes ) - warp finishes around a minute earlier - MScore has energy for defense around 2'15 earlier - sentry has energy for an hallucination 45s earlier - zerg's third is delayed by a minute in average ( from my experience ) / assuming they try to play macro - the build is safer versus 6-10 pools - tech timings are actually similar ( you drop your stargate / robo just in the 6' - 6'30 mark ) - the build is great against random players. Of course, if the Zerg goes hatch first, there's no way to punish him. I'd say that's by far the main drawback of the build. Though to be honnest, on those gigantic 4-player maps, punishing a Zerg with a canon rush can be a coin flip too. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
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IPS.Blue
Germany309 Posts
On May 02 2013 17:22 Big J wrote: I think that mass queen + base swarm host of two bases is incredibly strong against this build, as 3-4 queens just shut down the early MsC+stalker attack and then you can be half way over the map with your creep when your swarm hosts start to spawn. I agree. Personally I have had bad results with Gate Expand. It feels difficult and volatile when compared to forge openings. Of course I don’t have that many Gate Expand games, which makes it hard to do a fair comparison. | ||
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FireMonkey
Australia105 Posts
On May 03 2013 00:51 Pyloss wrote: I have some questions about the follow-up. At which time does the Robo comes? And do you build 4 or 5 phenix? And when u build a third? Sorry for all the questions, but i really want to play that build, looks so good. It's personal choice, you don't even have to go stargate follow up, what i like to do is get a sentry early on and then during the 4 gate attack i use a hallucination to scout his base and i will tech in reaction to his tech or what things he has that hints to what tech he will go. But if you do choose stargate anyway and go phoenix, i would recommend 5 because 5 can decently kill overlords in little time and also 1 lift off will kill a queen as opposed to 4's 2 lift offs to kill 1 queen. and you get extra energy for drones. generally after your 5 phoenix you'd want to get a robo as soon as you can cause they will most likely go into roach hydra | ||
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