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hey guys here are my PvP ladder games since the 21st of feb
http://drop.sc/packs/681
I've been working hard on the sg builds. Early robo after SG might be better against some things, but I have found a fast forge, usually after 1 phoenix, is quite good as well. One cannon is very strong against blink + robo off of one base in that the detection range is absurd, and cannons are pretty good against stalkers. Here is the build that I've been having the most success with recently:
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
15 pylon
17 core
18 zealot
20/21 gas
22 stalker
22 WG research (3 CB minimum; 4 vs. aggression)
24/25 pylon
25 stalker (cb)
29 2nd gate or sg
29 sentry
31 2nd gate or sg
~ forge after 1st phoenix
It seems to be good against everything except blink expands that play very passively-- against expansions, you can almost always kill enough probes to compensate for your later expansion. When your opponent plays defensively on 2 bases with a fast blink, this is almost impossible; you should theoretically always be behind going into the mid game
While the forge prevents you from putting on any SG 3-4 gate pressure, you will be safe from everything off of 1 base, besides WP 4gates if you don't see them coming in time. It should beat DT builds, but after the DTs can't get in, you need to prepare for an archon follow-up so make sure you are checking their nat for an expansion, or looking for units on the map.
Off of 2 bases all you need to worry about is a handful of robo+blink timings that hit very quickly after going up to 6+ gates, with some immortals or a colossus. you need to scout their infrastructure on 2 bases even if you have to sacrifice a phoenix and add additional gates/robo units accordingly.
Feel free to comment/ask questions!
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Oh so sick. I've never really gotten into the Phoenix thing for PvP. Ganna check em out and see what's up. Thanks Alej.
How do you usually do vs really fast 1 base blink allin? I usually can kill players that get a SG with a fast Blink + 3 Gate allin.
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On March 19 2012 12:59 CecilSunkure wrote:
Oh so sick. I've never really gotten into the Phoenix thing for PvP. Ganna check em out and see what's up. Thanks Alej.
How do you usually do vs really fast 1 base blink allin? I usually can kill players that get a SG with a fast Blink + 3 Gate allin.
i just forcefield the bottom of the ramp until I can engage it :D
of course, if i don't see it coming, i just die immediately  see the vines game tt
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Ah yes! Really been struggling with my PvP lately (only diamond :/ ). Is the 2nd gas early enough to prevent a gas steal? How would you deal with that?
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On March 19 2012 13:37 bloodorc44 wrote:
Ah yes! Really been struggling with my PvP lately (only diamond :/ ). Is the 2nd gas early enough to prevent a gas steal? How would you deal with that?
it's not at 18 so there is the potential for a steal. you can't always block the gas steal because even if you put a probe on it, they can steal it by building it when the geyser is out of vision. if you do get it stolen, try to steal theirs. if i can steal there's i continue but just get the sg slightly later. if i cannot, i do some light WG pressure off of 3 gates but don't commit so hard to it. feel free to snag it a little bit earlier if you are worried about gas steal. i haven't played out a lot of games where i get my gas stolen so i don't really have a whole lot to say on the matter sorry!
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On March 19 2012 13:39 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 13:37 bloodorc44 wrote:
Ah yes! Really been struggling with my PvP lately (only diamond :/ ). Is the 2nd gas early enough to prevent a gas steal? How would you deal with that? it's not at 18 so there is the potential for a steal. you can't always block the gas steal because even if you put a probe on it, they can steal it by building it when the geyser is out of vision. if you do get it stolen, try to steal theirs. if i can steal there's i continue but just get the sg slightly later. if i cannot, i do some light WG pressure off of 3 gates but don't commit so hard to it. feel free to snag it a little bit earlier if you are worried about gas steal. i haven't played out a lot of games where i get my gas stolen so i don't really have a whole lot to say on the matter sorry!
Thanks! And I never knew you could do that with a gas steal haha
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Do you think the forge is worth it/necessary? i go phoenixes in every PvP and i dont have any trouble defending with just 2-3 sentries and a robo after 4 phonixes i dont feel like theres a need for detection until you have DTs knocking at your ramp, you can have your units on hold position and ff if you see they are getting attacked by nothing and ff until you have detection.
On a side note any 1 base blink feels like auto loss for me but what i like about phoenixes is that it feels like auto win or a build order advantage vs a lot of stuff.
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anywhere i can find to improve my pheonix micro i feel like i leave them unattended sometimes and lose for no reason. like when you pick up worker and many pheonix arnt attacking. any maps?
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On March 19 2012 16:20 Gamma4 wrote:
anywhere i can find to improve my pheonix micro i feel like i leave them unattended sometimes and lose for no reason. like when you pick up worker and many pheonix arnt attacking. any maps?
when you're using lift make sure you're also spam right clicking the the dot under your phoenixes so they group up. you'll always need to be using phoenixes to check expansion timings, tech choices/switches and move-outs. once you have gotten yourself some map control, take a tower with a probe. there's nothing worse than confirming no expansion---and then bam 10 stalkers blink up your ramp
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Neat, I was hoping one of you guys came up with some pheonix play, as I am trying something similar but don't really have a point of reference :-).
First things first: I'm only plat, so I do realize there are other issues besides "strategy".
However, here it goes:
In the PvP build I try, I also use Phoenix play, only a lot more aggressive. The opening is quite similar, in that I get gate-core-sg-gate. However, I am trying to:
- have three stalkers as first gw units
- chrono up to 5 phoenixes
- add third gw when I can afford it
- pump as many stalkers as gas allows considering constant phoenix production + zealots for the rest of my production cycles.
After getting 4-6 phoenixes, move out. If the opponent attacks before this timing, defend accordingly.
The actual key points in what I try to do are:
- either attack a defending opponent or defend an early push with minimal losses;
- depending on the first engagement, go for the kill or take natural;
Basically it all comes down to the first engagement. Usually (and this has worked so far in EVERY game I tried it, unless I horribly missmicroed), I lift his key units: immortals / sentries / stalkers. Once these are up in the air, I have superior numbers of stalkers. While 3-4 units are in the air, the remaining phoenixes shoot / the ground army clears whatever is left on the ground.
Going back to your replays, Alej, in #136025 you put a lot of minerals into forge and cannons. My questions for you are:
- do you think 3 gates + stargate could handle the 4 gate pressure (considering you manage to engage him since the first wave of warpins so still hold his numbers low)?
- don't you feel like its' too much of an investment forge + 2 cannons at that point in the game? I feel like if he would've defended better (sent 4 stalkers back into his base to keep your phoenixes away) he could've contained you 1 base, expanded and gained a big advantage from then on.
Thanks for your time.
PS: I just cleared the entire replay directory when I looked at yours. I assume I could provide replays of my phoenix play tomorrow, if needed, although it's a bit painfull to watch  .
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seems strong, i reckon it could really work against any race if you ask me. From what i know, it takes 6-7 phoenixes to lock down an expansion in terms of workers produced vs recharge of phoenix energy, so cutting off half their income with a critical mass of 6-7 phoenix is just... well, you do the math . Once the initial harass is over, I'd say use the phoenixes for either helping to kill colossus, or lifting off 6-7 stalkers in a large engagement. If you choose the shooting the colossus bit, I'd recommend getting air weapons before a big engagement occurs. Just remember to keep them alive!
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I like to get a robo instead of a forge. It lets you make immortals vs blink stalkers (and you can lift up their immortals with phoenix). Then you can also get an observer for dts, and snipe theirs. I often try to expand and get a forge and twilight, for +1, charge, and eventually archons.
I always scout and harass with 2 phoenix, since you'll be able to see his tech decisions. Usually I won't add a 3rd gate right away, unless my opponent puts on a lot of aggression.
You can hold off 4 gate simply by making sentries. Once successfully defended, you'll have a tech advantage over your opponent.
You can usually all-in one base colossus and fast expands by adding on another gate.
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Edit: wrong thread, sorry.
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How do you handle agressive 4 gate, with 2 pylons starting off your ramp around 5'15 ? Do you simply not drop the stargate and go for a faster second gate and chrono stalkers ( like in the 3 stalkers rush ) ?
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to defend 4 gate you can still get the stargate, but just make sentries out of your gateways. as long as his units don't make it up the ramp you should be fine.
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On March 19 2012 19:59 moQbara wrote:Neat, I was hoping one of you guys came up with some pheonix play, as I am trying something similar but don't really have a point of reference :-). First things first: I'm only plat, so I do realize there are other issues besides "strategy". However, here it goes: In the PvP build I try, I also use Phoenix play, only a lot more aggressive. The opening is quite similar, in that I get gate-core-sg-gate. However, I am trying to: - have three stalkers as first gw units - chrono up to 5 phoenixes - add third gw when I can afford it - pump as many stalkers as gas allows considering constant phoenix production + zealots for the rest of my production cycles. After getting 4-6 phoenixes, move out. If the opponent attacks before this timing, defend accordingly. The actual key points in what I try to do are: - either attack a defending opponent or defend an early push with minimal losses; - depending on the first engagement, go for the kill or take natural; Basically it all comes down to the first engagement. Usually (and this has worked so far in EVERY game I tried it, unless I horribly missmicroed), I lift his key units: immortals / sentries / stalkers. Once these are up in the air, I have superior numbers of stalkers. While 3-4 units are in the air, the remaining phoenixes shoot / the ground army clears whatever is left on the ground. Going back to your replays, Alej, in #136025 you put a lot of minerals into forge and cannons. My questions for you are: - do you think 3 gates + stargate could handle the 4 gate pressure (considering you manage to engage him since the first wave of warpins so still hold his numbers low)? - don't you feel like its' too much of an investment forge + 2 cannons at that point in the game? I feel like if he would've defended better (sent 4 stalkers back into his base to keep your phoenixes away) he could've contained you 1 base, expanded and gained a big advantage from then on. Thanks for your time. PS: I just cleared the entire replay directory when I looked at yours. I assume I could provide replays of my phoenix play tomorrow, if needed, although it's a bit painfull to watch .
Doesn't your build here just straight up die to DT openers though? I'm pretty sure that the reasoning for the Cannons, along with the ability to spot Observers to help against Blink play.
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On March 19 2012 23:15 Fossa wrote:
to defend 4 gate you can still get the stargate, but just make sentries out of your gateways. as long as his units don't make it up the ramp you should be fine.
Even making a sentry as your third and fourth units, chrono boosted, you won't have enough force-fields until your warp is done. I don't believe you can hold if you drop a stargate and go for a stalker as your second unit.. can you post a replay ?
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Italy12248 Posts
On March 19 2012 23:25 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 23:15 Fossa wrote:
to defend 4 gate you can still get the stargate, but just make sentries out of your gateways. as long as his units don't make it up the ramp you should be fine. Even making a sentry as your third and fourth units, chrono boosted, you won't have enough force-fields until your warp is done. I don't believe you can hold if you drop a stargate and go for a stalker as your second unit.. can you post a replay ?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117
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On March 19 2012 23:17 BronzeKnee wrote:
Doesn't your build here just straight up die to DT openers though? I'm pretty sure that the reasoning for the Cannons, along with the ability to spot Observers to help against Blink play.
Although never faced a DT opener, I think DTs arrive quite late and are easily scoutable. You have your probe in their base up until the first stalker comes out and then poke around with your own stalkers. Depending on the sentry / stalker count you can pretty much tell if there's any chance for a DT rush and react based on that info.
Cannons vs observers aren't great since you cannot cover the entire edge of your base with cannos.
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is it wrong that I go 1 base double forge with 3 gate push? I win 65 percent of my pvps this way in masters.
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EPT
