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I've read a lot of topics about general ZvZ build ideas and dealing with the 'standard baneling' offense, but I feel like I'm having a lot of trouble in this matchup. I don't think it's with any specific build or playstyle, I do very well in ZvT and ZvP, but I think I'm just approaching the fight wrong.
I know I'm supposed to get lair very fast, because you need T2 to beat Mutalisks effectively. At the same time, I'm expected to have Zergling Speed pretty early, and banelings are pretty standard. Am I supposed to work off 1 base? Is an early expansion always a mistake?
I always try to look at every matchup's early game as an algorithm to which there is one 'safe' solution, and everything else is simply branches off that safe play. In ZvP, for instance, I will 14 pool and scout the opponent. If I don't see chrono boosted double gate off one pylon, then I know it's safe to expand.
With Zerg I just don't know what I should be doing. He gets a queen out and I can no longer watch his production, so I don't know if he's building 20 drones and 3 spinecrawlers or a force of 18 speedlings. Maybe I should be sacrificing scouts for this information? Maybe more zerglings scouts and better micro to avoid the queen?
What if he fast expands? Do I fast expand myself? Go all-in on a roach push before he can get spinecrawlers down?
I guess I feel like I'm playing too reactionary - which is bad given how little information I get. Usually I am either agressively pushing out with an early force, or I just pump econ and keep my army only as what's neccesary to defend against their theoretical max army - and that works really well for me. With Zerg, though, I never feel like I know what their army is going to be until it's too late. I feel like I have to guess how many resources they're putting into Army and Econ, and try to keep my Army either a bit lower than theirs, or much higher and win.
Basically I always feel like I'm guessing in ZvZ. I'll try to find an example replay when I get home, but I always feel like I'm in danger of the opponent turning all his larvae into zerglings and overwhelming me.
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If you can get zerglings in his base, its pretty easy to keep them alive and scout for way longer than you should be able to, especially if your speed is faster than his. At least long enough to see if hes making lots of lings, bane nest, or roach warren, early tech, etc.
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ZvZ is all about good scouting, and it is alot of reacting, and alot has to do with build order, I think on all maps except steppes of war, you should probably baneling speedling ( not always speedling ) then into mutalisk, mutalisk gives good map control and if they try to push out with roach hydra then muta speedling baneling will overwhelm, as well if they get infestors you can just stop harassing so your mutas dont get fungal growthed, on steppes I like to just go roach and then get lair for roach speed and +1 roach attack, and if they go muta then hydra roach infestor because its such a small map and the distances are bassically right beside each other.
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two hatches in one base works good for me real good in zvzs
two hatch one base + mass speedlings + banelings can destroy any zerg who is stupid enough to go fast expo in any maps in zvzs..
top build also work pretty well against any zerg that goes for early roaches.. cuz speedlings destroy roaches..
most zergs ive played in high diamond/ plat leagues do the same build.. (one hatch + speedlings, banelings then transition into spire..)
again, scouting is super important.. if u go for the two hatch + speedlings + banelings build and your opponent makes few zerglings and go for super fast spire.. build evolution chamber and some spores.. and u catch up making muta..
I was able to beat 90% of my zvzs in diamond / plat leagues with this strat.. zvzs usually never end up in macro fight for me and personally, trying to get a macro fight in zvzs is a bad idea....
last thing is MICRO MICRO MICRO (muta vs muta , zergling/baneling vs zergling/baneling is all about micro)
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I agree with the posters above, as those tactics are quite valid, especially scouting. The best way to scout is to be aggressive, in other words, keep the fight in his base and not yours! This is very important especially when its ling/baneling from both players. Like said before, if you micro very carefully and treat each unit as if its made of gold, you should be in a good position to macro/tech; which in turn will win you the game! On bigger maps, it may be hard to keep up pressure, so expect to def. expand.
I hate ZvZ! Nothing has really changed since BW. You have to keep an eye on your units/base at all times and each little battle counts...sigh...hateithateithateit...but I love the thrill!
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personally, I don't know why people hate roaches in zvz so much, mass roach into roach/hydra is my standard, and after i get more than 6 or so roaches I can't be touched. Since roaches also use larvae more effectively this eliminates the need for a second hatch in your main, as long as you get your queen out at the regular times. Once you get lair and can throw up creep at an expo you can easily make some spine crawlers to defend a second base, and spine crawlers definitely benifit roaches, with their high damage output while roaches absorb all the damage from their lings/banelings. After this, quickly get hydras and your golden.
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I know I'm supposed to get lair very fast, because you need T2 to beat Mutalisks effectively. At the same time, I'm expected to have Zergling Speed pretty early, and banelings are pretty standard. Am I supposed to work off 1 base? Is an early expansion always a mistake?
This is part of your problem. You only want to go Lair when you have a serious advantage and he's put up spine crawlers or maybe if he's going roaches. Otherwise the resources are better spent on more banelings to get more map control.
Don't avoid the queen, kill it. It's your #1 target actually; killing it cripples your opponent since in ZvZ larvae is the most valuable resource after attention and map control.
Don't respond with a FE, hit his stuff hard. If his hatchery is defended hit his main. If his main is defended hit his hatchery.
Remember all resources spent on other stuff is less resources spent on banelings. Having more banelings means you have the army advantage so long as you micro well and spread out the banelings.
From the moment you get your first few batches of zerglings you should be pushing out as much as possible to take map control. If the enemy has more lings just run away from them before they engage (since obviously your lings are the same speed). You want to be applying constantly pressure and exerting as much map control as possible. This way your banelings are a constant threat to his mineral line and your lings are preventing him from expanding.
An early expand is always a mistake except maybe on DO (even then...). The resources are better spent on banelings for the stronger army and the ability to hit his mineral line. When he tosses down spine crawlers THEN you can think about expanding.
Don't be too afraid of a spine crawler until there are many of them. A single spine crawler prevents your lings from sitting under them for too long, but you can still snipe a queen or use lings to tank the crawler and get banelings in.
Just remember you only need to worry about their economy as a reactionary measure. If they go spine crawlers or roaches and your initial attacks aren't effective (which they should be if they're investing in that sort of stuff, work on it if they aren't) then you need to worry about keeping ahead economically. Just scout and make a few more drones, but remember that they've invested resources into their defenses so it doesn't take much to put you back on even economical standings. There's no reason to explode in drones, doing so leaves you weak to a push.
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I had a very good win rate zvz in diamond before the last reset. All the zvz's after that ended up being long macro games with lots of defense (if you can believe that).
Still, scouting is key, and a big part of that is making sure the fights happen close to his main. Rally your units right outside his natural if you have numbers as he will have to reatreat or build spines or both hopefully. Then you can get a good sense of his T2 tech.
Doing the standard speedling/baneling, i've lost to some very good builds including,
1)Baneling first (no zergling speed) with spines to defend, then rush for mutas (on scrap station)
2)Roach hold position in the mineral lines with spines to defend, into mass roach with speed (scrap station, kulas ravine)
3) 10 pool 6 zerglings into mass roach (blistering sands)
I think if you can know your opponent is going standard, there are ways to abuse the fact that
1) Is not a super early rush because you need speed plus banelings for your push
2) Guaranteed to be on one base
I've also won some good games by going +1 zerglings when i see roaches. It's a precarious situation though, because if he gets a critical mass of roach, it doesn't matter how many zerglings you have and one baneling can ruin your whole day.
Right now, I go for standard tech looking for areas on the map where i have advantage which sometimes means defending first, then after the first battle, rally all my troops outside his natural to pressure him/scout his tech.
Also important to cover the lanes with overlords so you can see him morphing banelings or hiding zerglings for a backstab.
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Disclaimer: I'm not a diamond player, only platinum.
@OP: My feeling is, earliest pool gets to be the agressive one. I just try to survive and have mutas first.
Last ZvZ I played was pretty much by the book. Still lost though 
It was on Kulas Ravine, cross positions. I open 12 pool and make lings. He had an earlier pool so his lings arrive first. I put down a baneling nest. He gets banelings first so for a short time it is just standard ZvZ micro battle, lings Vs banelings, until I get my own banelings. Pretty standard early game for ZvZ at my level.
I scout him running roaches to my base so I tech to mutalisk and make lings to hold off his roach push.
I manage to hold it off but by the time I get to his base with my mutalisks, he has 3 spore crawlers and I can't do much damage. I harass to keep him busy and deny his expansion while I take my own expansion. He makes hydras. I build a hydra nest, 3 spine crawlers, saturate my natural and start building some hydras. At this point I think I've won.
A few minutes later his hydra push completely overruns my natural and I have to GG. He probably saw a timing window and I over-macro'd.
By the way, is there a "counter" to mass hydra expect having more hydras and a better arc?
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By the way, is there a "counter" to mass hydra expect having more hydras and a better arc?
burrowed banelings / roach.,
you cant arc what you cant see and you only need one suprise attack to end the game 
also if he goes hydra, and you go muta the ball is in your end as he cant push out as you will rape his base, tech to roach and start producing while you harass.
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You can make alot of strategies work provided you scout lots and react properly. If you go ling/bling abuse the mobility and power vs lings, if you go roaches abuse the fact that you can make 3 of them and then pump a bunch of drones and get lair tech. If you go mutas abuse the mobility again. If you went roaches and your opponent goes muta, get some infestor & hydra and fungal his mutas to victory, if you went muta and he went hydra/roach get banelings to blow up the hydras. ZvZ is hardly ling/bling all of the time. Hell, before the beta shut down I even fought players who were producing corruptors to counter mutas. (You pretty much need hydras otherwise your ovies all get raped, and muta can't beat corruptor per cost. ).
Being good at ZvZ is all about reading your opponent and knowing what to do in certain situations. I would say that there are two "safest" plays. Ling/bling into muta, and roach into roach/hydra/infestor. The first option will get you an easy natural & plenty of map control, but becomes quite weak once infestors are in play. Additionally muta/ling/bling is very micro intensive, and will typically have a weaker mineral economy due to the high gas cost and constant harassment you must do to keep a roach/hydra/infestor player from getting his expo too early or stay ahead of an opponent doing a mirror build. Muta/ling/bling is the mobile option, roach/hydra/infestor is the solid timing attack option (You have to play smart to prevent getting out-expoed and you better be godlike at fungals too if you don't want your hydras melting to baneling & muta fire). Going muta vs muta pretty much makes it a SC1 ZvZ where being down 200 gas loses you the game. Going roach/hydra/infestor pretty much makes it so if you land sick fungals you rape the shit out of your opponent, and if you don't you get your shit pushed in.
Protip: If you go roach/hydra/infestor make sure to leave 1-2 infestors in your base so when he backstabs with mutas you can just fungal them in place before they get anywhere near your drone/queens, and then just continue fungaling them. If both players go roaches you want a 4:1 ratio of roaches to hydras and only a couple infestors.
TL;DR: ZvZ is awesome and I've seen every tier 1 and 2 unit used effectively. Game sense, reading your opponent, and having godlike micro is how you win ZvZ. I have even used brood lords a couple times (lol).
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On June 10 2010 03:21 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +By the way, is there a "counter" to mass hydra expect having more hydras and a better arc? burrowed banelings / roach., you cant arc what you cant see and you only need one suprise attack to end the game also if he goes hydra, and you go muta the ball is in your end as he cant push out as you will rape his base, tech to roach and start producing while you harass.
ling/bling rapes hydras period. Just get baneling speed and send a few lings with them to tank the first few volleys. Hydras melt to banelings just like marines do.
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On June 10 2010 04:00 Wr3k wrote:
ling/bling rapes hydras period. Just get baneling speed and send a few lings with them to tank the first few volleys. Hydras melt to banelings just like marines do.
Thanks, I'll try this next time I face hydras. Would've been a lot easier also
I knew I had to have done something wrong, I was ahead on pretty much all game and I got my ass handed to me.
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On June 10 2010 03:24 Wr3k wrote:
You can make alot of strategies work provided you scout lots and react properly. If you go ling/bling abuse the mobility and power vs lings, if you go roaches abuse the fact that you can make 3 of them and then pump a bunch of drones and get lair tech. If you go mutas abuse the mobility again. If you went roaches and your opponent goes muta, get some infestor & hydra and fungal his mutas to victory, if you went muta and he went hydra/roach get banelings to blow up the hydras. ZvZ is hardly ling/bling all of the time. Hell, before the beta shut down I even fought players who were producing corruptors to counter mutas. (You pretty much need hydras otherwise your ovies all get raped, and muta can't beat corruptor per cost. ).
Being good at ZvZ is all about reading your opponent and knowing what to do in certain situations. I would say that there are two "safest" plays. Ling/bling into muta, and roach into roach/hydra/infestor. The first option will get you an easy natural & plenty of map control, but becomes quite weak once infestors are in play. Additionally muta/ling/bling is very micro intensive, and will typically have a weaker mineral economy due to the high gas cost and constant harassment you must do to keep a roach/hydra/infestor player from getting his expo too early or stay ahead of an opponent doing a mirror build. Muta/ling/bling is the mobile option, roach/hydra/infestor is the solid timing attack option (You have to play smart to prevent getting out-expoed and you better be godlike at fungals too if you don't want your hydras melting to baneling & muta fire). Going muta vs muta pretty much makes it a SC1 ZvZ where being down 200 gas loses you the game. Going roach/hydra/infestor pretty much makes it so if you land sick fungals you rape the shit out of your opponent, and if you don't you get your shit pushed in.
Protip: If you go roach/hydra/infestor make sure to leave 1-2 infestors in your base so when he backstabs with mutas you can just fungal them in place before they get anywhere near your drone/queens, and then just continue fungaling them. If both players go roaches you want a 4:1 ratio of roaches to hydras and only a couple infestors.
TL;DR: ZvZ is awesome and I've seen every tier 1 and 2 unit used effectively. Game sense, reading your opponent, and having godlike micro is how you win ZvZ. I have even used brood lords a couple times (lol).
a few patches ago maybe
ling openings beat roach really hard. upon scouting it/seeing their ling count you cancel baneling nest, if its in time, pump a round of drones, and then go roach with a better econ. speedlings give you time to power more than them but they cant drone because 3 roaches on a ramp is definitely not safe vs ling/bane allins.
and muta rapes 1 base roach into roach hydra anyway, you dont keep going muta ling bane unless its a huge map like meta, just use the mobility to get an econ advantage and switch to roach/hydra yourself.
the only opening that normally comes out even or ahead vs ling/bane is hatch first expand with a sunk asap and 2 queens on the ramp, which is freeloss vs early pool.
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On June 10 2010 10:28 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 03:24 Wr3k wrote:
You can make alot of strategies work provided you scout lots and react properly. If you go ling/bling abuse the mobility and power vs lings, if you go roaches abuse the fact that you can make 3 of them and then pump a bunch of drones and get lair tech. If you go mutas abuse the mobility again. If you went roaches and your opponent goes muta, get some infestor & hydra and fungal his mutas to victory, if you went muta and he went hydra/roach get banelings to blow up the hydras. ZvZ is hardly ling/bling all of the time. Hell, before the beta shut down I even fought players who were producing corruptors to counter mutas. (You pretty much need hydras otherwise your ovies all get raped, and muta can't beat corruptor per cost. ).
Being good at ZvZ is all about reading your opponent and knowing what to do in certain situations. I would say that there are two "safest" plays. Ling/bling into muta, and roach into roach/hydra/infestor. The first option will get you an easy natural & plenty of map control, but becomes quite weak once infestors are in play. Additionally muta/ling/bling is very micro intensive, and will typically have a weaker mineral economy due to the high gas cost and constant harassment you must do to keep a roach/hydra/infestor player from getting his expo too early or stay ahead of an opponent doing a mirror build. Muta/ling/bling is the mobile option, roach/hydra/infestor is the solid timing attack option (You have to play smart to prevent getting out-expoed and you better be godlike at fungals too if you don't want your hydras melting to baneling & muta fire). Going muta vs muta pretty much makes it a SC1 ZvZ where being down 200 gas loses you the game. Going roach/hydra/infestor pretty much makes it so if you land sick fungals you rape the shit out of your opponent, and if you don't you get your shit pushed in.
Protip: If you go roach/hydra/infestor make sure to leave 1-2 infestors in your base so when he backstabs with mutas you can just fungal them in place before they get anywhere near your drone/queens, and then just continue fungaling them. If both players go roaches you want a 4:1 ratio of roaches to hydras and only a couple infestors.
TL;DR: ZvZ is awesome and I've seen every tier 1 and 2 unit used effectively. Game sense, reading your opponent, and having godlike micro is how you win ZvZ. I have even used brood lords a couple times (lol). a few patches ago maybe ling openings beat roach really hard. upon scouting it/seeing their ling count you cancel baneling nest, if its in time, pump a round of drones, and then go roach with a better econ. speedlings give you time to power more than them but they cant drone because 3 roaches on a ramp is definitely not safe vs ling/bane allins. and muta rapes 1 base roach into roach hydra anyway, you dont keep going muta ling bane unless its a huge map like meta, just use the mobility to get an econ advantage and switch to roach/hydra yourself. the only opening that normally comes out even or ahead vs ling/bane is hatch first expand with a sunk asap and 2 queens on the ramp, which is freeloss vs early pool.
I agree that ling/bling into muta is the superior opener for the reasons you mentioned. I'm just trying to get the point across that the OP should worry less about specific builds and more about game sense, timing and micro, because it totally depends on what your opponent is doing. These things might not work at all at your level, but the highest I've ever been rated is ~2100, so maybe I have a little more wiggle room as my opponents are more forgiving.
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all anything depends on is build order and gas
its a big game of chicken, you both go ling bane until one tries to go muta. either he loses there or gets away with it and wins, or the other matches, and then its just a matter of who secures their natural gas quicker since nothing can compensate for having less mutas.
assuming no one gambled and went hatch first exp.
awful fucking matchup.
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On June 10 2010 12:35 IdrA wrote:
all anything depends on is build order and gas
its a big game of chicken, you both go ling bane until one tries to go muta. either he loses there or gets away with it and wins, or the other matches, and then its just a matter of who secures their natural gas quicker since nothing can compensate for having less mutas.
assuming no one gambled and went hatch first exp.
awful fucking matchup.
I guess that's a good way of looking at it - if you are going to tech, then make sure you are not going to get attacked by an overwhelming force. If you don't know, then it's just a gamble. My problem is I never know, so it's always a gamble: invest into tech, opponent attacks and wins, or opponent doesn't attack and I win.
Thanks for the info everyone, I guess part of me sees that it's really an annoying matchup but I still want to stop dying to things that could be avoided. I wonder if the early game will change when the beta comes back up, it's very scripted now.
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On June 10 2010 12:35 IdrA wrote:
all anything depends on is build order and gas
its a big game of chicken, you both go ling bane until one tries to go muta. either he loses there or gets away with it and wins, or the other matches, and then its just a matter of who secures their natural gas quicker since nothing can compensate for having less mutas.
assuming no one gambled and went hatch first exp.
awful fucking matchup.
Although this is almost always the case, i've still seen a couple roach plays (getting early gas, lair, then enough roaches to defend ramp, etc) can still work, such as seen on day9's dehilde build, ofcourse adding more overlords in the mix although. Mainly because: Fungal + Hydra > mutas. Hydras outrange mutas, and willl get free hits off on them once the tech is reachable, plus hydra do very well vs mutas beacsue they are cheaper on gas, and enough roaches can take care of the lings (or aim for a few banelings lategame as well) Although i do hope ZvZ evolves a bit when the next phase comes out.
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On June 10 2010 10:28 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 03:24 Wr3k wrote:
You can make alot of strategies work provided you scout lots and react properly. If you go ling/bling abuse the mobility and power vs lings, if you go roaches abuse the fact that you can make 3 of them and then pump a bunch of drones and get lair tech. If you go mutas abuse the mobility again. If you went roaches and your opponent goes muta, get some infestor & hydra and fungal his mutas to victory, if you went muta and he went hydra/roach get banelings to blow up the hydras. ZvZ is hardly ling/bling all of the time. Hell, before the beta shut down I even fought players who were producing corruptors to counter mutas. (You pretty much need hydras otherwise your ovies all get raped, and muta can't beat corruptor per cost. ).
Being good at ZvZ is all about reading your opponent and knowing what to do in certain situations. I would say that there are two "safest" plays. Ling/bling into muta, and roach into roach/hydra/infestor. The first option will get you an easy natural & plenty of map control, but becomes quite weak once infestors are in play. Additionally muta/ling/bling is very micro intensive, and will typically have a weaker mineral economy due to the high gas cost and constant harassment you must do to keep a roach/hydra/infestor player from getting his expo too early or stay ahead of an opponent doing a mirror build. Muta/ling/bling is the mobile option, roach/hydra/infestor is the solid timing attack option (You have to play smart to prevent getting out-expoed and you better be godlike at fungals too if you don't want your hydras melting to baneling & muta fire). Going muta vs muta pretty much makes it a SC1 ZvZ where being down 200 gas loses you the game. Going roach/hydra/infestor pretty much makes it so if you land sick fungals you rape the shit out of your opponent, and if you don't you get your shit pushed in.
Protip: If you go roach/hydra/infestor make sure to leave 1-2 infestors in your base so when he backstabs with mutas you can just fungal them in place before they get anywhere near your drone/queens, and then just continue fungaling them. If both players go roaches you want a 4:1 ratio of roaches to hydras and only a couple infestors.
TL;DR: ZvZ is awesome and I've seen every tier 1 and 2 unit used effectively. Game sense, reading your opponent, and having godlike micro is how you win ZvZ. I have even used brood lords a couple times (lol). a few patches ago maybe ling openings beat roach really hard. upon scouting it/seeing their ling count you cancel baneling nest, if its in time, pump a round of drones, and then go roach with a better econ. speedlings give you time to power more than them but they cant drone because 3 roaches on a ramp is definitely not safe vs ling/bane allins. and muta rapes 1 base roach into roach hydra anyway, you dont keep going muta ling bane unless its a huge map like meta, just use the mobility to get an econ advantage and switch to roach/hydra yourself. the only opening that normally comes out even or ahead vs ling/bane is hatch first expand with a sunk asap and 2 queens on the ramp, which is freeloss vs early pool.
I always hatch first and do the double queen wiht 1-2 spines (depending on teh type of all-in) into roaches. Yes it loses to an early pool, but what are the chances you are going to misscout the first two bases (one with an ovie scout, one with a drone) AND he goes early pool? Early pool is incredibly rare simply because there's typically no advantage of it (as so many ppl go 13/14/15pool). If you drone scout the other zerg and he goes early pool you typically haven't even placed your hatch yet and can just do a 14/15 pool. I find you are WAY ahead in terms if they one base mass units, and if they expand themselves you're def economically ahead.
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Day9 daily #134... mass queen/roach push. Very innovative, yet also very effective. I don't even know how zelniq thought that up.
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EPT
