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I have had a lot of fun working on Lyote the last couple of months, but I finally decided to complete this map that I have had lying around for some time. The third bases are a little untraditional, which should provide for some interesting games, but aside from that, it's a pretty standard and solid map layout-wise.
Bounds: 128x144
Bases: 14x 8m2g
Main to Main: 51s
Natural to Natural: 39s
Feedback is, as always, welcome and well appreciated.
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your Country52798 Posts
I really like the third base, it's something I could never make work though.
Pretty much any kind of game on this map is really interesting-looking.
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Sick, I think I'd rather play dune on it than sc2, but man, good job. Can't believe how many awesome maps the tl-contest bring up, make sure to enter it, I want this on ladder.
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I love the main-nat-third set up! It's reminiscent of some BW maps and as far as I recall hasn't really been executed that much or that well in other SC2 maps. I love the middle and the side bases, it's a clever set up. Everything fits very nicely. Blink seems a little powerful, but should be manageable. This map is better than Lyote.
Great map!
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I just love the map, the flow of the map and well every map feature fits together pretty damn nicely imo but there are some things and details that i don't think are necessary to the map like + Show Spoiler [these rocks] +, also the the main bases may be too exposed to blink even with the mineral lines (~4th bases) in there. Can stalkers reach the mineral line of the natural from behind the cliff? It looks like a couple mineral patches can be disrupted. I'm also concerned about cannon rushes behind the natural base mineral lines, i would highly suggest you to check that out. The distance between the main townhall and the natural townhall looks quite long, specially for zerg, i would suggest to rotate the main's mineral line 45º clockwise and make them cardinal while moving the townhall slightly so it doesn't take 2 (?) creep tumors to connect the main base's creep to the natural, or at least make the distance shorter, i would sacrifice the harassability of the base for a shorter main2nat distance.
I consider that this map has a solid shot at the TLMC if you decide to submit it, but before that i would suggest you to fully cover all the unpathable high grounds with more doodads, if you do not then Blizzard will if they decide to pick it up will like they did with Foxtrot, so as i said my advice would be to add more doodads to the highgrounds, SpacePlatform Hose are one of my favorite doodads, they also have several textures for the single doodad, the Avernus version is of a dark corroded red color, that should fit right in with the theme of the map + Show Spoiler [chaning the texture] +
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
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love this. ladder map pls
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More detailed thoughts: there's something I might change upon further thought, which is there are a decent number of bases on the map, and though I don't think that impacts anything very much in itself, the corners feel dense with resources, in particular the corner base is in some cases a free base, requiring very little additional map presence to hold. I would think about something like the following poorly crafted edit:
+ Show Spoiler +
All simply to reduce redundancy of base placement. Otherwise I really dig the map, I was playing around with that exact 3rd base setup recently, I've wanted to see that sort of thing get used. Also really like how the middle area is set up, gj overall.
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This map has two conflicting issues in which I think will result in this map not playing well at all.
The first issue being three bases behind a single choke, even though such situation is temporary. This alone will outright produce boring games. This was demonstrated on Akilon Wastes, where the entire midgame would essentially be skipped. However, unlike Akilon Wastes, players don't even have to break rocks to take a third and don't have to use collapse rocks to get the three base behind one choke situation. You can literally FFE into triple nexus if you wanted. So yeah, that's the first issue. But....
The second issue is the more powerful one, as it basically overrides the first. This issue is the fact that the third is nearly impossible to defend. When players are on three bases, there are two points of control, which are the two bridges. You hold those, you're safe. Only problem is that the defender's distance between the bridges is WAY longer than the attacker's distance. It's the Blistering Sands issue times a thousand. This forces players to not use the bridges to defend their third and nat, but instead defend the area outside the bridges if they want to take a third base. Now that's basically impossible with how open that area is. Once the rocks are gone, you're just out right fucked. You can't defend or hold your third, and now your nat has two entrances, and a very thin cliff between danger and the mineral line.
So yeah, I don't think this map will work in the slightest. Super easy third with the rocks, but once the rocks are gone, good luck with holding the third and the nat.
I do not think there is a way to fix these issues without introducing other issues, and ruining the concept of this layout. Sure, they can be fixed, but then It'd most likely be a boring standard map with an easy third.
EDIT: I went in game just to see how open the area outside the bridges is. It indeed does come out to be very open....
+ Show Spoiler +
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Full disclosure, you should probably listen to Timebender before you listen to me, I generally don't get too into the minutiae of a map's dynamics unless they're really good.
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I fully agree with Timetwister here, despite all the enthusiastic feedback of the other posts. It's a map that looks great and innovative, but I fear it won't translate into good gameplay.
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Love it. Hasn't been tried, should be tried.
Needs more shading with the textures though.
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Take out the wall in the 3rd and nat and just have both bases in one mass; that's how I would fix the long defending walk around.
I think it's a little z op with the easy third, maybe debris on the third would help out with that.
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I really like the concept and the routes, but the base locations don't work imo. The main-cliff bases are the obvious 4th, but they're too close to one another to be stable. The other choice of 4th is the lowground base but that suffers from the same problem even moreso. This makes the map an aggressive small map disguised as a macro-oriented "cool design" map. Which is okay with me but I have the feeling this wasn't quite the intention.
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Update 1.1
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KfpyDnB.jpg)
I appreciate all of the nice feedback and have been hard at work since the release of Rao Mesa. As Timetwister pointed out, the restricted movement between the third and natural bases is an issue, which is the reason why I, after further discussion, decided to do some rather big changes to that area. While these changes are fundamental, I believe the core design has been preserved as much as possible. This change will help defend the third and natural, but the new attacker/defender dynamic may at the same time leave you in trouble if the collapsable rocks are destroyed during an attack. I think this will make for some interesting games. Aside from this change, I also decided to do some slight adjustments to choke sizes here and there, as well as aesthetic improvements. That said, let me know what you think!
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This completely changes the way the map works. It transforms the natural from fairly standard, with a backdoor, to an open nat. I think it might be fine, as the 3rd is easily taken, and the map in general is pretty heavy on chokes, but the change is pretty big, and might need further alterations if you want to go in that direction.
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It looks like it might be possible to take the 3rd as the nat and wall from main ramp to 3rd entrance, in which case the actual nat just becomes a very easy 3rd. In any case, it will be a lot easier to hold 3 bases on this version - perhaps too easy.
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your Country52798 Posts
Top right natural has a ninth mineral patch which screws up CC/Nexus/Hatch placement.
Personally I would move the rocks leading into the third to the bridge so the natural isn't open.
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