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I present the results of the collaboration, and of the constructive bickering, between me and the superspecialawesome iGrok.
Aesir Ruins - version 1.0
Made by NewSunshine
Published on [NA].
Submitted for MOTM ProAm
List of changes:
-Linear 4th base nudged towards the 3rd base, the mid-ground has also been extended to further accommodate the changes.
-Facing of the 2/8 O'Clock base mineral lines readjusted.
-The obstruction between the 3rd/4th bases has been made larger, creating choke points leading to the linear 4th from the center.
-Overlord Scouting Pod moved from the natural's mineral line to the natural's choke.
-Pathable high-ground pod added in the center.
+A laundry list of aesthetic refinements:
-iGrok has used his expertise in lighting to create a special nighttime lighting for the map.
-The lv0 terrain has been redone to accommodate silver lava, another new addition to the map.
-The doodad count has been halved, to improve load times and framerates.
-The protoss decals have been redesigned by iGrok, and, in addition to showing that he in fact has no life, look much more awesome than before.
-The Zhakul'Das Manmade cliffs have been changed to Ulaan Manmade, to better fit and accent the combination of the Snow and Temple themes.
-The doodad selection and textures all over the map have been meticulously refined.
Pretty Pics:
+ Show Spoiler +
Texture Set:
+ Show Spoiler +
Lighting: iGrok's superspecialawesome Snowy Night lighting
Data (Gameplay):
Playable Bounds: 138x136
Nat - Nat Walk Distance~ 144.1
Expansion Count: 10 8m2g
Xel'Naga Towers: 1
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To be honest I don't really like any of the changes. The fourth base was a little far, so nudging it was okay, but the fact that it was on low ground before was what gave the map an interesting impression, imo.
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I have no idea how to play SC2, but I can comment on aesthetic style.
The redone map shares a problem of cerberus plateau-if you're going to make visual differences in texture between bases, commit fully to them and make them distinct. When looking at the two halves of the map on Ruins, I can barely tell which elements are mirrored on the other side.
The old crystals were a lot nicer.
The edges of the map hurt my eyes.
IONIA WILL NOT FALL
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So it's the same map but with more bloom effects ? I fully approve of this.
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What immediately struck me about Cerberus was that the mesas (where the temple and massive crystal are now) were really just too wide open. I like open areas to fight in, but with the wide open middle as well, the mesas were too big. So instead of getting rid of them, we moved the open area from the mesa to the corridor between 3 and 4. Now, if you drew a line to split the map, you can see the different sizes of paths to get to the other side.
On August 04 2012 07:45 ArcticRaven wrote:
So it's the same map but with more bloom effects ? I fully approve of this.
No... actually I toned down the bloom lol. Its just that since i work in Ultra and NewSunshine doesn't, in the previous overview the lava didn't appear (so it didn't shine). Also, it only glows like that from the top-down overview (as you can see in the 2nd aesthetic picture)
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On August 04 2012 07:10 Gfire wrote:
To be honest I don't really like any of the changes. The fourth base was a little far, so nudging it was okay, but the fact that it was on low ground before was what gave the map an interesting impression, imo.
The change to that area of the map was focused on the gameplay, not the impression. Before, the defender had a bigger advantage engaging on the side path(the ramp), now that the high ground element is removed, and a choke added to the other entrance, the larger defender's advantage shifts to the front, most direct, entrance to the 3rd/4th, whereas an attacking army has a much better position coming from an off-angle now. This is the opposite of how it was originally, and should make for better positional plays.
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On August 04 2012 07:46 iGrok wrote:
What immediately struck me about Cerberus was that the mesas (where the temple and massive crystal are now) were really just too wide open. I like open areas to fight in, but with the wide open middle as well, the mesas were too big. So instead of getting rid of them, we moved the open area from the mesa to the corridor between 3 and 4. Now, if you drew a line to split the map, you can see the different sizes of paths to get to the other side.
Well, I do agree about that, though I feel the execution was a bit lacking. Just seems like you threw a big chunk of stuff in the middle there without much thought to positioning and how the chokes would have been utilized. That's not a huge deal, though, as it serves it's purpose. I kinda felt like it mostly just added thin paths to the map, not exactly positional/defensive choke points. They aren't so bad, though, looking again.
On August 04 2012 08:22 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 07:10 Gfire wrote:
To be honest I don't really like any of the changes. The fourth base was a little far, so nudging it was okay, but the fact that it was on low ground before was what gave the map an interesting impression, imo. The change to that area of the map was focused on the gameplay, not the impression. Before, the defender had a bigger advantage engaging on the side path(the ramp), now that the high ground element is removed, and a choke added to the other entrance, the larger defender's advantage shifts to the front, most direct, entrance to the 3rd/4th, whereas an attacking army has a much better position coming from an off-angle now. This is the opposite of how it was originally, and should make for better positional plays.
I'm not sure why the defender would have defended at the ramp previously. After taking the fourth, you'd have to defend from the bridge, and before taking the fourth, you'd defend back at the third base. The ramp would only be used to move your army through from the bridge back to the third or middle, so opening it up would would only increase the ease to moving your army back and fourth to defend. Seems fine to me, though I feel widening the bridge would do what your describing more effectively, wouldn't it?
As a side note, if your attacking up that ramp, you've already killed the fourth so I think a strong defender's advantage there is okay.
Of course I'm the first guy to agree with you that gameplay is more important than the impression. I'm a bit disappointed though, cause I felt the main appeal to this map was that impression.
Edit: I'm a bit curious as to the reasoning behind the high-ground bits added in the center. Not something I would have thought to do, and I'm a bit puzzled by it.
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On August 04 2012 09:07 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 07:46 iGrok wrote:
What immediately struck me about Cerberus was that the mesas (where the temple and massive crystal are now) were really just too wide open. I like open areas to fight in, but with the wide open middle as well, the mesas were too big. So instead of getting rid of them, we moved the open area from the mesa to the corridor between 3 and 4. Now, if you drew a line to split the map, you can see the different sizes of paths to get to the other side.
Well, I do agree about that, though I feel the execution was a bit lacking. Just seems like you threw a big chunk of stuff in the middle there without much thought to positioning and how the chokes would have been utilized. That's not a huge deal, though, as it serves it's purpose. I kinda felt like it mostly just added thin paths to the map, not exactly positional/defensive choke points. They aren't so bad, though, looking again. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 08:22 NewSunshine wrote:On August 04 2012 07:10 Gfire wrote:
To be honest I don't really like any of the changes. The fourth base was a little far, so nudging it was okay, but the fact that it was on low ground before was what gave the map an interesting impression, imo. The change to that area of the map was focused on the gameplay, not the impression. Before, the defender had a bigger advantage engaging on the side path(the ramp), now that the high ground element is removed, and a choke added to the other entrance, the larger defender's advantage shifts to the front, most direct, entrance to the 3rd/4th, whereas an attacking army has a much better position coming from an off-angle now. This is the opposite of how it was originally, and should make for better positional plays. I'm not sure why the defender would have defended at the ramp previously. After taking the fourth, you'd have to defend from the bridge, and before taking the fourth, you'd defend back at the third base. The ramp would only be used to move your army through from the bridge back to the third or middle, so opening it up would would only increase the ease to moving your army back and fourth to defend. Seems fine to me, though I feel widening the bridge would do what your describing more effectively, wouldn't it? As a side note, if your attacking up that ramp, you've already killed the fourth so I think a strong defender's advantage there is okay. Of course I'm the first guy to agree with you that gameplay is more important than the impression. I'm a bit disappointed though, cause I felt the main appeal to this map was that impression. Edit: I'm a bit curious as to the reasoning behind the high-ground bits added in the center. Not something I would have thought to do, and I'm a bit puzzled by it.
Well, I suppose my explanation may not hold as much weight as iGrok's, seeing that it was really his suggestion. The high ground bits are just there to add some extra potential for micro in the center, particularly with colossi/dropships. I've seen it get used in some pretty cool situations on Shakuras Plateau, the main difference here being that a tank on the ledge doesn't put the nearby expansion in jeopardy. It was sort of a passing thought when it hit me, but the more I thought about it the more it seemed to fit the design.
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Hmmm... I'm going to be honest, I think it got worse.
-Linear 4th base nudged towards the 3rd base, the mid-ground has also been extended to further accommodate the changes.
Wwhhhyyy!!! The fourth was one of the cooler parts of the map imo. Linearity isn't a good thing...
-The obstruction between the 3rd/4th bases has been made larger, creating choke points leading to the linear 4th from the center.
Larger and for no reason... it could not be there at all and be completely fine. That area is used for attacking, not defending with a wall. All that it has done is make the third and fourth really strange and difficult to attack into- except for Protoss, because FFs are going to be a nightmare especially against Zerg.
-iGrok has used his expertise in lighting to create a special nighttime lighting for the map.
iGrok is really knowledgable about lighting, but honestly messing with lighting isn't something you do in competitive melee maps because players will always complain if it hurts their eyes, if it is distracting, etc. I like UMS with cool lighting, but I have high suspicions that this will work, especially in a night theme.
--
Soo... sorry if this is negative, I like that you got into it, but I can't really get behind the changes.
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On August 04 2012 10:21 monitor wrote:Hmmm... I'm going to be honest, I think it got worse. Show nested quote +-Linear 4th base nudged towards the 3rd base, the mid-ground has also been extended to further accommodate the changes. Wwhhhyyy!!! The fourth was one of the cooler parts of the map imo. Linearity isn't a good thing... Show nested quote +-The obstruction between the 3rd/4th bases has been made larger, creating choke points leading to the linear 4th from the center. Larger and for no reason... it could not be there at all and be completely fine. That area is used for attacking, not defending with a wall. All that it has done is make the third and fourth really strange and difficult to attack into- except for Protoss, because FFs are going to be a nightmare especially against Zerg. Show nested quote +-iGrok has used his expertise in lighting to create a special nighttime lighting for the map. iGrok is really knowledgable about lighting, but honestly messing with lighting isn't something you do in competitive melee maps because players will always complain if it hurts their eyes, if it is distracting, etc. I like UMS with cool lighting, but I have high suspicions that this will work, especially in a night theme. -- Soo... sorry if this is negative, I like that you got into it, but I can't really get behind the changes.
Don't worry, I'd rather do you from behind then the front
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I messed around on this map for awhile and found 2 things:
+ Show Spoiler +BLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
and
http://imgur.com/d38sp
+ Show Spoiler +There's similar spot one the opposite side of the map (ovie nest with crystals near nat), but you can only drop a guy on the right side. Also, you can't drop tanks, so it's probably not a big deal.
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On August 04 2012 12:22 Ooshmagoosh wrote:I messed around on this map for awhile and found 2 things: + Show Spoiler +BLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM and http://imgur.com/d38sp+ Show Spoiler +There's similar spot one the opposite side of the map (ovie nest with crystals near nat), but you can only drop a guy on the right side. Also, you can't drop tanks, so it's probably not a big deal.
That definitely wasn't intended. I remember coating everything like that in non-pathing, but either I missed a spot or there's a glitch. I'll definitely look over it though, since I'll probably be working on the map some more. I'm not sure what you mean about bloom though, I'll look into the lighting, and if I have to revert the changes, but the strength of the glow in the overview is wrong, since it's really layered underneath a fog, which sort of buries the effect. I'll change the settings on the water so it doesn't show up like that in the overview though.
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Liked the original layout better D:
Map still looks good though.
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Seems a bit too easy to get 4 bases up - even more so as Terran. Just take your 4th at the middle base, make it a planetary, siege some tanks on the highground near the ramp that goes inbetween your nat and 3rd, and you're basically defending all 4 bases from 1 position. Esp. since it appears that there is very little airspace for drops to go around so you don't have to worry as much about that. That may be the overview not being zoomed out enough though.
Aesthetics are badass, good job.
Take this with a little or a lot of salt since I'm not a "pro" and you may not even agree with me about the 4 base thing, but since there are actually 12 bases instead of 10 and the map isn't that big, you could just -snip!- the 4ths or the middle bases and use the space gained to change things. Afaik 10 bases is still considered acceptable for a mid-sized map.
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I might be one of the few who actually approve of the changes made to this map.
Even though people claim that it is too easy to get and defend 4 bases, its still a really wide path with a lot of entrances, I feel like that will force people to be more mobile since it will be good both offensively and defensively, and I'm all about not having 2 passive players sit back and run 2 200/200 armies into each other. The more action the better the map is for spectator purposes.
Even though I didn't think it was possible the aesthetics have been made even greater and iGrok's lighting skills really shines through. I absolutely love this map!
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Now this is a macro map. The 3rd is as easy as on Antiga and the 4th is not hard to hold at all.
On August 04 2012 20:42 xeqwist wrote:
Even though people claim that it is too easy to get and defend 4 bases, its still a really wide path with a lot of entrances
Uhm, no.
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I don't like how main nat third is right now. First and obviously, it will be blink stalkers heaven, siege tanks etc. That's less of a problem.
The second thing is it is way too cloud kingdom esque. One could argue that it is almost identical. It's good to get inspirations, but it's going a little too far maybe?
The third thing is that in cloud kingdom, there are two entrances to the natural from the third, but on this map there's only one, which will promote easier bases, which could be protoss favored.
By the way, all these things were present in the original map as well, but wasn't really fixed on this map :/
Don't get me wrong though, it's playable and solid. just boring.
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