TL Mafia LXII: TL Noir - Page 7

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yamato77

11589 Posts

September 24 2013 02:23 GMT

#2708

i got protected BTW

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 24 2013 03:22 GMT

#2725

I'm confirmed town, so what I say actually goes today.

We lynch Sentinel.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 24 2013 21:52 GMT

#3059

On September 25 2013 00:13 Mattchew wrote:
So yamato is town, thats no fun

Did I ruin your singular scum read by being so townie I got protected N1?

Should tell you something about how you're playing this game.

On September 25 2013 00:44 Mocsta wrote:
@Rayn: Regarding - Mattchew
OP links are NOT updated. Mattchew filter
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423071&user=Mattchew

Im just going to list things that stick out to me whether pro/con and then summarise

+ Show Spoiler +

Not sure why his first action is to filter dive 4 specific players
Gut read on rayn is meh.. would have expected something more substatial
Gives an odd read on Chariman Ray.. almost as if he knows he is town (this stuck out to me a while back).. could just be poor phrasing
Where is outcome of his filter dive on 4 specific players?
Cuddles Mocsta... via gut again.. none of his posts have any in-game substance
Is OK with yam, based on others vote critera; but then later gives a wishywashy comment on yam that implies he only has a soft scum lean.. very odd
Asks for opinions on Stutters multiple times, but doesn't flesh out why he is interested (very scummy)
Rational of keeping voting on yam is odd... suggests he didnt have a scum read on him when he cast the vote in the first place....which is not consistent with prior comments
later puts a scum team which includes stutters.... why the fuck did he not vote stutters instead of yam.. OR prove stutters himself.. (VERY SCUMMY)
Really odd comments about marv.... not sure what it means

Overall.
I have a few problems with him
(1) Tries to insinuate stutters is scum through others, but provides no insight of his own. In fact, he doesnt even probe stutters directly to ascertain his alignment.
Exacerbated when he confirms he didnt have a scum read on yamato when voting him... but lists stutters on his scum team (His vote should have been on stutters !!)

(2) When speaking about chariman_ray opener; the phrasing is really odd. Its almost as if he knows the guy is town.. i actually cant pinpoint my issue with it, its just really odd.

(3) I have played voice mafia with this guy twice now. As town, matt is easily able to establish himself. He speaks freely and with confidence, is to the point, and doesn't listen to bullshit. I'm not getting an iota of that this game.

I actually can't see how this guy can be town. His actions are very scummy/deceitful, and I can't picture the motive for a town to keep asking about stutters, without providing personal insight, or querying stutters directly.

Im actually really happy with this guy to be voted. And willing to vote him above anyone else I discussed prior this cycle.

##Unvote
##Vote: Mattchew

For the record, this case is very good and why I am reconsidering my townread of Matt. Him being exceptionally useless and not at all attempting to prove that he is town is not what I would expect from Matt, if he were town. Him having bad reads isn't necessarily a tell, because he accused me of being mafia in Voice once when I was literally the most active player in the game and drove discussion.

Officially on the fence about Matt. If he were town, I wish he would do something useful.

On September 25 2013 01:05 VisceraEyes wrote:
Can I just say how annoyed I am that the "confirmed town", yamato and Coag, have had nothing to say today? SOOOOO salty.

On September 25 2013 05:50 VisceraEyes wrote:
The fact that there are only 3 kills weighs on my mind. The fact that I was suspicious of Coag, and that he's claimed one of the three kills last night. The fact that Yamato hasn't done shit since the day post except try and leverage his position.

Yes, iamp, I do have reason not to believe him. Fucking ass.

VE bitching about me not having played so far today is fucking ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is this sentiment that he doesn't want to confirm me as town. However, I don't know that scum VE would continually attempt to ruffle my feathers so much. He likes to placate townies more than butt heads with them. He accuses me like every game we're in together as town, so its whatever.

On September 25 2013 05:58 deconduo wrote:
Wait unless I'm missing something here, how is yamato confirmed? From what I understand, and coag hasn't been that forthcoming with information, coag claimed a vig shot on yamato, and yamato claimed he was protected. Why does that make yamato town? All it means is that coag is semi-confirmed, and a doc saved yamato.

Why would a scum lie about being protected, it makes sense for yamato to claim the protection regardless of his alignment.

Deconduo has also attempted his best this game to argue that I'm not town, which is amazing. He's done nothing else, notably. It's unfortunate that this is what is typical of his town play. Not a good lynch.

As far as Sentinel goes, he's still the best lynch of all time. His explanation of why he voted for Ray is ass, and even if it wasn't ass, is so far removed from the actual action that it's meaningless. Suddenly he realized I was town because he thought Ray was scum and I couldn't be bussing? WTF

FT's case on Umasi is not as impressive as people think. Umasi is on my "not looking at for a while" list that includes Pandain/Zaragon/JAT as people that aren't posting much but are probably town. FT's other reads this game have been unimpressive. However, I do like that he self-analysed his own meta. That's not something I would expect out of scum.

Cephiro is someone I think could be mafia. Will look into shortly.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 24 2013 21:59 GMT

#3067

On September 25 2013 06:55 FirmTofu wrote:
@Yamato
So my case is not good because Umasi is on a semi-lurker list? Should you be looking into semi-lurkers more than others because mafia usually hide in that sort of posting level? You're telling me that most of scum are either active or hardcore lurking? Really?

No, I'm saying that I've noted posts from those players that make me feel good that they are town.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 24 2013 22:00 GMT

#3068

On September 25 2013 06:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Show nested quote +

Please do.

yamato: That's not what Sentinel is saying. He said your case on CR and what marv said about him made him look into CR and after doing so he thought CR was the best lynch.

Really?

I'm pretty sure that's not what he said.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 24 2013 22:01 GMT

#3069

On September 25 2013 06:22 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 25 2013 06:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:

On September 25 2013 06:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:

On September 25 2013 05:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Sentinel what did make you change your mind on yamato on D1?

I agreed with him, this is when I convinced myself that Chairman was scum and yamato was right.

On September 25 2013 05:59 FirmTofu wrote:

On September 25 2013 05:20 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
First read:

FirmTofu's case on Zaragon seems to be more concerned about saving his own ass - he even mentions it in the opening - which makes his case look more motivated to post some sort of read for the sake of posting reads. The parenthetical aside part of his argument, like marv before me mentioned, is actually mistaken by itself. So there goes the integrity of that read.

I'm not going to rehash marv's arguments over there, but it ends with FT defending his stance on towns being committed to their reads - marv claims the opposite with towns not being 100% sure who is scum. What is important here is that in FT's mind, townie players need to commit to their reads. I don't know if it was his intention, but this post heavily implied he was one of the players who as town commits to their reads: post

On September 24 2013 07:22 FirmTofu wrote:
I'm back. All caught up. I'm starting to have reservations about my case on Zaragon :/
brb doing some filter diving.

Switches to me.

Pandain calls him out on it, with the post asking if Marv convinced FT of his argument. So FT contends that Zaragon is his top read (although it is shit, and he says so) and keeps his vote on it.

Bracketing this for a second, here is the interesting bit.

Now what his read on me is is all the stuff I've done earlygame. He claims that we were looking for vig targes - were we? I'm pretty sure the beginning of Day 1 we hadn't found anyone to vig yet. Anyways, he brings up my weak Coag vote, my switches onto Stutters and Umasi, and brings up arguments that can be considered somewhat valid. Until he brings up yamato:

Later, he switched to Yamato, who is now basically confirmed town barring crazy shenanigans. No real reasoning provided for this vote switch. Just decides Umasi isn't going to gain steam so decides to vote someone else.

Final sentence is true. First two are not. I voted for Yamato when he had only two posts of considerable length, and the second one made him look like a scumfuk. I think I even justified the vote earlier in the thread. At this point I thought Chairman Ray was town and yamato was isolating him for an easy lynch - and FirmTofu completely waves away the detailed thought process I laid out on why I switched from my townread on Chairman to being the final nail in his coffin. "Seems sketchy at best. I can vote this guy." That's all the rationale he gives.

So in summary, FT's current two reads, say what you will about their targets, are both heavily flawed. His number one read, which he acknowledged had holes in it to Pandain, is still his number one read at the time of this posting. That's incredibly scummy to me - instead of finding the best proof he can, he just latches on whatever reads he can find without regard for their solidity.

Hello Sentinel. Good to have you here. I would like to address what you said about my supposed belief that townies need to commit to their reads. I don't hold this belief at all.

I think townies generally end up committing to their reads, even to a point of fault. This behavior is not good town play, it's just what ends up happening when someone rolls town, at least in my experience.

I, personally, do not usually commit to reads when I am town. If you saw my post regarding my own self-meta, you should be able to get an idea of how I play as town.

Back to you. You initially voted Coagulation and then never really talked about him much after that. Is there anything Coagulation did or said that convinced you he wasn't scum?

I read the filter that marv told me to read, and his play as town there was pretty much a carbon copy of his play here. So I switched to my other scumread, Stutters. Then later I picked up Umasi, a better scumread at the time, and then yamato.

Guess I was wrong about your implication. Like I said, I didn't know if it was your intention, but from your wording it seemed like you would commit to a fault like the townies you speak of. Anyways, my point still stands that you really haven't offered much on Zaragon ever since marv poked holes in your first read.

I am a bit puzzled. Did you think yamato was town when you voted for CR?

Well the post that started all of it had yamato give several scumreads, then vote for Chairman Ray out of all of them. By this point I had an easier time believing Chairman was red rather than green.

When I thought CR was townie, scum yamato could have easily isolated and lynched Chairman since he would prove to offer the least resistance. As scum-CR though, why would scum yamato insta-bus his teammate? He offered several good reads and picked one that didn't look too strong. He'd be a lot safer, at least initially, and have the extra man, if he pushed let's say DarthPunk after that big post.

But he stayed on Chairman. So if Chairman is scum, like I convinced myself he was, yamato must have been town. Now I'm unsure if yamato was scum or simply misguided, so I'm looking to his more recent activity.

Yeah, that's not what he said.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 24 2013 22:09 GMT

#3078

Marv, are you opposed to a Sentinel lynch?

I want to lead a lynch for a day.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 24 2013 22:17 GMT

#3082

On September 25 2013 07:11 marvellosity wrote:

Show nested quote +

There's lots of things I want to do before I arrive at a lynch

in principle, no, I'm not, he doesn't really have any redeeming features.

one thing is that it would seem kinda odd for him to question your confirmed-townness if he's mafia, because he would know he hit you and he would know that you were saved therefore. He would have had to fake that.

That's not particularly hard to do when Risen, VE, and Deconduo have all chimed in about their doubts

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 24 2013 22:33 GMT

#3090

On September 25 2013 07:25 marvellosity wrote:

Show nested quote +

Perhaps not, do you remember where Sentinel came in in regards to these guys?

I know it's not much but it's the kinda thing that gives me pause with stuff.

Not really.

I know Risen was first.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 25 2013 03:20 GMT

#3191

Can we please kill Sentinel?

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 25 2013 03:26 GMT

#3196

On September 25 2013 12:26 Pandain wrote:

Show nested quote +

Maybe we can get it going. Going to read him again, a lot of his D2 posts made me think he's town.
Since you'll respond to this anyway, I assume you also put forth an argument that I can read? If so, link?

I've been explaining my reads the whole game.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 25 2013 03:39 GMT

#3199

On September 25 2013 12:34 Mocsta wrote:
Sorry yam.

If mattchew flips scum. I think the next guy to flip should be Geript.

His dwlurk yesterday was such an odd timing...and..reading his filter now I really fucked up early game to ve... He was right about Geript using ve to find Dp scummy. Geript posted his points after the comment, not before as I had said

Highest % to flip for the win right?

I'm not convinced Matt will flip scum, bro.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 25 2013 03:49 GMT

#3203

On September 25 2013 12:44 Mocsta wrote:

Show nested quote +

That's ok. I know are waiting till deeper in the cycle to confirm how he will react.. if he does.

So.
Is sentinel really your highest % to flip?

Obviously.

This is also fueled by teh fact that I don't trust you 100%.

TBH, I'm just like Marv in that you and Rayn are question marks.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 25 2013 03:52 GMT

#3205

What do you LIKE about it?

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 25 2013 12:17 GMT

#3320

Up to page 163, see Matt's post, immediately feel vindicated that I was unsure of him being scum.

Dude is town.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 25 2013 12:19 GMT

#3324

On September 25 2013 15:36 geript wrote:
Ok so here's where my mind's at. The night kills were super odd in many ways. I'm assuming that the NKs were Yam/BH/Wos; we could make an interesting argument that BH/VA/WoS were the shots and that Coag is actually scum, but I see very little reason to do so there. Yam/BH/WoS isn't awful I guess. but with both VE and Marv in a game I'd fully expect if both of them were town that both of them would be targeted as it's unlikely that both would be medic'd. In the very least I'd expect a doublestack on one of them and then a freebie shot at BH.

Here's the problem that I'm seeing: town got into a shitty place on D1 which is amazing for scum (yes part of that is my fault) and the best priority for scum in this type of situation is to do their best to keep it that way. So the highest priority for scum is not to remove blues but rather to remove people who can bring the thread on track. WoS is ignored half the time despite being a decent player. Yam can bring a thread on track but just as often derail a thread into "No You're scum" posting. Vayne (if he was a scum shot) is intentionally worthless until endgame.

Rather my priority as scum would be to remove active quality players of which the available shots would be: VE, Marv, DP (prior to rage quit), Mocsta, Rayn and a few others. So what's the point in shooting WoS or Yam/Vayne over any of those five. I'm honestly not seeing it. There's a shit ton of scum (6); there's an amazing KP rate (1/2 round up), town seems to be mostly inactive. Where's any sort of benefit of not trying to remove the "get on track" type people to keep the thread in a clusterfucked situation?

I've only seen odd kills like this in two drastically different situations: mostly inactive scum where NKs going through is far more important than anything else and mostly active experienced scum where they need a bit of time to hide before it becomes obvious. I'm not sure that Mattchew is right about Marv, but I really think that we should be taking hard looks at Marv/VE/etc. again because I'd bet that a number of the "pro scummers" are scum.

This is wrong and dumb. VE wasn't a good shot because he did nothing until today. Marv has been passed over for NK many times. I've been shot before him in Les Mafia. WoS was clearly town, and BH was a replacement with the possibility of being good for town (maybe).

Saying VE/Marv are worth looking into because they are alive is stupid.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 25 2013 12:28 GMT

#3331

Gonna reread Pandain. I just kinda wrote him off for a while.

I'm glad that Marv and I are on the same page about Ceph/Matt. I feel good about today's lynch.

yamato77

11589 Posts

September 25 2013 12:34 GMT

#3340

Moc, Matt is town.

I want you to explain why Sentinel wasn't on your list last night and yet is now "confirmed mafia".

I must have missed that transition.