Sanya12364 Posts
Onegu, JarJarDrinks,
I'm not going to let my policy lynch ruin the game for you two. But you two do need to elevate your scum-hunting game if town is to win.
So I'm going to teach one fundamental scum-hunting technique as one last gift. It is the telling difference between townies scum-hunting and scums pushing scum agenda.
Personal Notes:
Onegu, set aside meta arguments for a moment. The reason for lurky scum meta is because these scum hunting techniques work better with more activity.
JarJarDrinks, set aside setup speculation and WIFOM for this. This is a fundamental difference in behavior and unless there are some crazy crazy roles, the fundamentals always hold.
Town Scum-hunting
+ Show Spoiler +First, I'll discuss the look and feel of real scum-hunting. You make a case, you point some fingers, and you wait for counter-arguments. If you feel like your points haven't been addressed or more convincing information pops up. You press on and you vote for lynch. Example: getmoript's TAA accusation series + Show Spoiler +If you feel like your points have been addressed or new information shows up to change your mind, you back off. This will happen EVEN IF the target under suspicion is actually scum. The strength of a town scum-hunting case change with the situation and the facts. (You must account for players that fail once in a while because of: lack of thought, lack of reading comprehension, or plain ol' Didn't Read.) Example: getmoript's Day1 JarJarDrinks interaction + Show Spoiler +conversation starting here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=10#196Main Posts: On July 21 2013 14:30 JarJarDrinks wrote:What are you implying here? And I'll assume from the lack of answers to my questions, there isn't anything more to a hydra than what I posted. On July 21 2013 14:42 getmoript wrote:
I'm stating that your entry into the thread is convenient considering you're getting called out for lurking and being generally useless. Who is scum JJD? On July 21 2013 15:05 JarJarDrinks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 14:42 getmoript wrote:
I'm stating that your entry into the thread is convenient considering you're getting called out for lurking and being generally useless. Do you care to hear what I've been doing IRL? I doubt it. My name was first mentioned a while ago. If I waited untill people started voting for me, you would have said the same thing. My entry into the thread isn't suspicious dude. Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 14:50 getmoript wrote:
Also, why do you care about hydras? Why is it important in the least? I was asking because I wanted to know. I literally had no idea how they worked untill this game. You're really jumping on me for nonsense. stay tuned On July 21 2013 15:20 JarJarDrinks wrote:Tofu is who I'm most suspicious of right now. His first post sounds like he was just trying to say the towniest thing he could think of. Then he makes his "scum points" post, which I thought was mostly a joke @ first. But he defended it and said he wants to vote based off of it. Like the only thing even remotely scummy here is getmoript saying he doesn't want to interact w/ marv and only barely. Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 08:00 FirmTofu wrote:On July 20 2013 23:00 TanGeng wrote:
FiveTouch is Marv/VE?
We must lynch this Redville scum and take revenge for the mayor!!!
Down with FirmTofu!!!! Up with SilkenTofu!!!
Constructively discussing? Are we dreaming about a different type of forum mafia. If we wanted constructive discussion, might as well lop off about 24 hours of time and get closer to the voting deadline. Beginning of games is always fluffy and I like fluffy.
Fluff=bad You get scum points, sir. On July 21 2013 03:32 getmoript wrote:On July 21 2013 03:00 FiveTouch wrote:
It's a very real fake vote meant to express my willingness to fake-lynch rayn. Sup?
Also geript no, I'm not on right now. I'll probably be on later though, in case you...you know...had anything you wanted to say. You wanna say something alignment indicative for me. Because otherwise I really want to lynch you because both Hydras can't be town. Why can't both hydras be town? You get scum points, sir. On July 21 2013 04:02 getmoript wrote:On July 21 2013 04:00 FiveTouch wrote:On July 21 2013 03:43 getmoript wrote:On July 21 2013 03:35 FiveTouch wrote:
Apart from anything else we're a replacement. So it's just full on retarded straight up.
And creating some false dichotomy based on nothing. Yuk yuk yuk.
~marv I'm not talking to you Marv. I can't read you for shit. As a matter of fact I don't think I've played a game with you other than the other hydra game. Put VE back on the line. You're serious? You say something horrendous and then just say you're not going to interact with me? How about some motivation, because you're being disgusting so far. ##Vote: getmoript Are you an idiot Marv or just scum? I told you I can't read you versus shit. I read people far better when I've followed/played in more games with them. Hell I still don't have a read on you in Ver's game. You just mad because I'm more gay ripped than you? Why would you want to glean information from only one half of the hydra? Why are you asking for less information to work with? You get scum points, sir. On July 21 2013 05:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Yeah WoS, i am scum, what was the point of your question?
I don't think there is anything scummy in thread atm. Just stopped working and read the thread. Lemme drink a couple of beers so i can start playing. ^^
Oats why are you so silent? You claimed scum. You get scum points, sir. On July 21 2013 06:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I think Austin is town. I am so confused. You think Austin is town but you don't explain what makes you think that why. Why say it at all? You get scum points, sir. @ least 2 or 3 out of his 5 points are obviously not serious posts that he jumps on. Need to sleep now. I'll have more to say tomorrow. On July 21 2013 15:22 getmoript wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 15:19 FiveTouch wrote:
Okay I've read the thread and I want to lynch a lurker. Throw a dart between DocH, Zephirdd, Oatsmaster and TAA. None have even tried to fake caring about the game, so I'm not even going to fake caring about their lives. Who's it gonna be guys?
I prefer Zeph, as he's actually posted yet has said literally nothing...but like I said, I would support any of the other lynches I mentioned without hesitation.
-VE Talk to me about your thoughts on Tofu and JJD. On July 21 2013 15:24 FiveTouch wrote:
Like JJD I really disliked Tofu's scum points post, but unlike JJD I don't want to kill him for it. I think lurkers will cause us more grief than shitflinging late-game, and Tofu's posting will reveal his alignment in the days to come. On July 21 2013 15:27 getmoript wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 15:24 FiveTouch wrote:
Like JJD I really disliked Tofu's scum points post, but unlike JJD I don't want to kill him for it. I think lurkers will cause us more grief than shitflinging late-game, and Tofu's posting will reveal his alignment in the days to come. Side note. At some point I need to shadow you to learn how to be nice. Mental reminder. Here getmoript reconsiders JJD suspicion because of getmoript's meta knowledge. Example: JarJarDrink's 4 cops scenario against me. + Show Spoiler +Conversation starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=122#2434Main Content: On July 29 2013 21:48 JarJarDrinks wrote:
Proof that TanGeng is mafia
OK we have 4 cops
getmoript - redcheck on TAA
Cora - greencheck on TG
tofu - greencheck on TG, greencheck on cora, greencheck on Kirby
fivetouch - redcheck on getmoript, redcheck on cora
So I think we have to assume we have: 1 legit, 1 insane, 1 naive, 1 paranoid. I think everyone agrees that makes sense.
If that's the case, it looks like it's: getmoript = legit, Cora = insane, Tofu = naive, fivetouch = paranoid. Which means:
TanGeng = scum
##vote TanGeng JarJarDrinks feels like there is a solid case against me. On July 29 2013 21:51 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 21:48 JarJarDrinks wrote:
Proof that TanGeng is mafia
So I think we have to assume we have: 1 legit, 1 insane, 1 naive, 1 paranoid. I think everyone agrees that makes sense.
If that's the case, it looks like it's: getmoript = legit, Cora = insane, Tofu = naive, fivetouch = paranoid. Which means:
TanGeng = scum
##vote TanGeng Counter scenario: getmoript = paranoid, Cora = sane, Tofu = naive, fivetouch = insane. Which means: I'm town I counter with something that contradicts his argument. On July 29 2013 21:59 JarJarDrinks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 21:51 TanGeng wrote:On July 29 2013 21:48 JarJarDrinks wrote:
Proof that TanGeng is mafia
So I think we have to assume we have: 1 legit, 1 insane, 1 naive, 1 paranoid. I think everyone agrees that makes sense.
If that's the case, it looks like it's: getmoript = legit, Cora = insane, Tofu = naive, fivetouch = paranoid. Which means:
TanGeng = scum
##vote TanGeng Counter scenario: getmoript = paranoid, Cora = sane, Tofu = naive, fivetouch = insane. Which means: I'm town Bah, I thought I had it. OK, the cop info doesn't really tell us much. ##unvote for now back to rereading Even though I am his main suspect. I posted the counter-scenario and he reconsiders his argument and goes back to other scum-hunting. Example: FiveTouch's Corazon claim questioning + Show Spoiler +The look of genuine scum-hunting is that it should be logical (barring intimidation by other players) and the conclusion fits to the new facts and counter-arguments. If it is a partial case, there some sense of doubt should be coming from the town player. In more advanced play, you'll also have to know what kinds of facts appeal to the particular player in question.
Pushing Scum Agenda
+ Show Spoiler +Pushing scum agenda plays out differently, where scum will have an agenda in mind and grab at facts to fit to the desired outcome. Even if the initial argument is broken and the situation changes, scum will try to re-establish new arguments for the agenda. Sometimes, these arguments will be ridiculous, or silly, or even blatantly anti-town. And scum will ignore counter arguments, make up new reasons, or just plainly rehash the same argument to continue pushing. This is the scummy sort of tunneling. For this I give you FirmTofu's Corazon Day3 lynch sequence. + Show Spoiler +Even before the claim: On July 27 2013 20:09 FiveTouch wrote:
Just one more note on Cora, and this is to Firm especially. Presumably Corazon would be claiming to save his scumbuddy, TAA. There's a couple things to note about that.
1) he's going head to head with getmoript, someone already viewed as significantly more townie than Corazon. Already the chances of winning that battle are pretty small
2) EVEN if he did win that battle, getmoript gets lynched and flips detective. But then that gives away *both* TAA and Corazon.
The net of it being that even in the *best case* scenario for Corazon, he's trading 1 townie for 2 mafia. Seems terribly unlikely, no? 5T warns against the case for Corazon as scum. We start with the claim. On July 28 2013 04:04 FirmTofu wrote:
Alright, I gave myself a 12:00 deadline to post this. I've only delayed it this long because I wanted to see where the votes go before my reveal. I was also hoping for the off chance that people would lynch Cora without me having to reveal.
I am the Detective! I have the exact same role pm as getmoript.
Night 1, I checked TAA. Result: Town
Night 2, I checked Cora. Result: Town
This should answer a few questions for you.
Why did I defend TAA with "weirdness" for so long?
Because I got a town check on him.
If you have any additional questions, please ask.
I'm either a naive cop or a defective cop that gets everything wrong.
I'm leaning toward defective. I want to lynch Cora. 3 cops in this town? Highly unlikely. I am a DT and agenda is lynch Cora! On July 28 2013 04:17 FiveTouch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 04:04 FirmTofu wrote:
Alright, I gave myself a 12:00 deadline to post this. I've only delayed it this long because I wanted to see where the votes go before my reveal. I was also hoping for the off chance that people would lynch Cora without me having to reveal.
I am the Detective! I have the exact same role pm as getmoript.
Night 1, I checked TAA. Result: Town
Night 2, I checked Cora. Result: Town
This should answer a few questions for you.
Why did I defend TAA with "weirdness" for so long?
Because I got a town check on him.
If you have any additional questions, please ask.
I'm either a naive cop or a defective cop that gets everything wrong.
I'm leaning toward defective. I want to lynch Cora. 3 cops in this town? Highly unlikely. So annoying doing this via phone at a party. I believe this claim because we are also a detective, we have red checks on getmo and Cora. If I were to speculate, I'd say we had 4 cops with a different sanity each. The combination of our and firm's checks means Cora is probably town though Marv 5T also claims DT; says Cora is probably town. On July 28 2013 04:22 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 04:17 FiveTouch wrote:On July 28 2013 04:04 FirmTofu wrote:
Alright, I gave myself a 12:00 deadline to post this. I've only delayed it this long because I wanted to see where the votes go before my reveal. I was also hoping for the off chance that people would lynch Cora without me having to reveal.
I am the Detective! I have the exact same role pm as getmoript.
Night 1, I checked TAA. Result: Town
Night 2, I checked Cora. Result: Town
This should answer a few questions for you.
Why did I defend TAA with "weirdness" for so long?
Because I got a town check on him.
If you have any additional questions, please ask.
I'm either a naive cop or a defective cop that gets everything wrong.
I'm leaning toward defective. I want to lynch Cora. 3 cops in this town? Highly unlikely. So annoying doing this via phone at a party. I believe this claim because we are also a detective, we have red checks on getmo and Cora. If I were to speculate, I'd say we had 4 cops with a different sanity each. The combination of our and firm's checks means Cora is probably town though Marv Oh damn. Okay hold on, I'm going to have to think about this for a bit. Agenda derail? So far still looks like town DT claim & scum-hunting at this point. On July 28 2013 04:29 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 04:17 FiveTouch wrote:On July 28 2013 04:04 FirmTofu wrote:
Alright, I gave myself a 12:00 deadline to post this. I've only delayed it this long because I wanted to see where the votes go before my reveal. I was also hoping for the off chance that people would lynch Cora without me having to reveal.
I am the Detective! I have the exact same role pm as getmoript.
Night 1, I checked TAA. Result: Town
Night 2, I checked Cora. Result: Town
This should answer a few questions for you.
Why did I defend TAA with "weirdness" for so long?
Because I got a town check on him.
If you have any additional questions, please ask.
I'm either a naive cop or a defective cop that gets everything wrong.
I'm leaning toward defective. I want to lynch Cora. 3 cops in this town? Highly unlikely. So annoying doing this via phone at a party. I believe this claim because we are also a detective, we have red checks on getmo and Cora. If I were to speculate, I'd say we had 4 cops with a different sanity each. The combination of our and firm's checks means Cora is probably town though Marv The problem with this theory is that Cora didn't claim detective. He claimed investigator. I'm like 100% sure Cora is scum at this point. Agenda is back! 100% sure. Also 100% superficial. (also Cora does explicitly claim Detective). On July 28 2013 04:30 FiveTouch wrote:
Imo we lynch outside the claims because I believe them all. We probably die tonight but the other two cops should be able to confirm their sanities. 5T's town plan is to confirm sanities On July 28 2013 06:11 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 06:06 FiveTouch wrote:
TG is player of the team if that's the case, but it's absolutely within the realm of possible to ME. Marv may disagree, but my townread on TG is heavily tied into his more recent play....
Though now that I'm sitting here thinking about it, most of what I dismissed as townie on D1 was based on the assumption that he just doesn't know what he's doing. He's displaying a completely different kind of mindset and capability recently. :/ Well, scum is currently voting for me. It all comes down to whether JJD or kirby will vote me or them. We need a majority on either one to win this game and that means you need to vote one of them as well. I will not be voting kirby today. Remember not kirby, today. On July 28 2013 06:34 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 06:30 JarJarDrinks wrote:
I wish this all would have happened yesterday so there'd be more time to reread stuff to see if I really believe these claims. I'm leaning towards legit because it'd be so outlandish for scum to do something like this,
If u 2 guys are telling truths. then there's a fullproof way to see if cora is legit. Submit your own name tonight. According to cora u wont get town or scum, it'll say investigator or whatever it was he said. Instead of all of us wasting our checks... why don't we lynch Cora and see what our cop sanity is based on his flip? that way we'll know whether the two cops can find scum the following night. It's a win-win. A get information plan! That lynches Cora! On July 28 2013 06:44 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 06:40 cDgCorazon wrote:On July 28 2013 06:38 FirmTofu wrote:On July 28 2013 06:35 cDgCorazon wrote:On July 28 2013 06:34 FirmTofu wrote:On July 28 2013 06:30 JarJarDrinks wrote:
I wish this all would have happened yesterday so there'd be more time to reread stuff to see if I really believe these claims. I'm leaning towards legit because it'd be so outlandish for scum to do something like this,
If u 2 guys are telling truths. then there's a fullproof way to see if cora is legit. Submit your own name tonight. According to cora u wont get town or scum, it'll say investigator or whatever it was he said. Instead of all of us wasting our checks... why don't we lynch Cora and see what our cop sanity is based on his flip? that way we'll know whether the two cops can find scum the following night. It's a win-win. Why don't we lynch the fake-claiming scum member? The fact that you only want to lynch me for info is pretty scummy, man. You still haven't explained why you think I'm fake-claiming. I mean, to you, I should be just as likely a fake-claimer as 5T. The only difference being that people might actually vote me. On July 28 2013 06:13 cDgCorazon wrote:
BTW, is it weird that FirmTofu's claim only comes after jrkirby gets 2 votes in quick succession? That's pretty convenient... So your whole case against me rests on the timing. Holy hypocrisy. You think the timing of your claim isn't scummy when it brought getmoript's claim and accusation of TAA into question, but when I claim as kirby is gaining votes, I'm suddenly scum? Trying to draw a parallel to Corazon claim? Here's Corazon's Claim sequence + Show Spoiler +On July 24 2013 06:19 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 06:18 getmoript wrote:On July 24 2013 06:16 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
Its funny 5touch is defending TG again. I have a scum read on neither but gotta keep an eye on things like that. Fuck it. I'm tired of your shit. I'm detective. TAA is red. Go vote. Oh really? That's interesting... On July 24 2013 06:21 cDgCorazon wrote:He's lying. I'm a detective. CORA explicitly claims detective hereOn July 24 2013 06:21 FiveTouch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 06:21 cDgCorazon wrote:On July 24 2013 06:20 FiveTouch wrote:
How do you like this claim, Cora? He's lying. I'm a detective. Are you serious? Are you sane? (as in, cop sane) On July 24 2013 06:34 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 06:33 getmoript wrote:On July 24 2013 06:29 FiveTouch wrote:
I'm way less sure about this than VE tbh.
getmoript, do you have anything with sanity, or do you know you're sane?
~marv Why does my sanity even matter? He's objectively scummy on top of a red check. Who cares. Because having two sane cops in an 12 player setup is ridiculously town favored. On July 24 2013 07:02 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 06:58 cDgCorazon wrote:On July 24 2013 06:52 FiveTouch wrote:
Corazon, VE is bang on. Do you think getmoript is mafia?
~marv Well I don't think the chances of having 2 cops and a vigilante for town and only a roleblocker for mafia is very fair. Someone has to be lying. I can believe Onegu, which leaves Getmoript and TG's claims. There's a chance they could both be lying. Idk why Getmoript would claim to get TAA killed. What would he say if he was wrong about TAA? If town indeed has these power roles, we'll most likely be dealing with a miller or a godfather. Notice Corazon gets derailed quickly, but never reasserts his agenda. This is how a town claim works. If it meets resistance, the agenda is discarded. On July 28 2013 07:35 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 06:34 FirmTofu wrote:On July 28 2013 06:30 JarJarDrinks wrote:
I wish this all would have happened yesterday so there'd be more time to reread stuff to see if I really believe these claims. I'm leaning towards legit because it'd be so outlandish for scum to do something like this,
If u 2 guys are telling truths. then there's a fullproof way to see if cora is legit. Submit your own name tonight. According to cora u wont get town or scum, it'll say investigator or whatever it was he said. Instead of all of us wasting our checks... why don't we lynch Cora and see what our cop sanity is based on his flip? that way we'll know whether the two cops can find scum the following night. It's a win-win. It's a terrible plan. Scum kill the only useful DT remaining. This is a terrible plan. The information play is actually a terrible anti-town plan. After this Tofu's filter is filled with nothing else about Cora as scum. Do you see Tofu get derailed from the agenda? Do you see Tofu pick the agenda back up? 5T already posts some warning analysis. The case is quite flimpsy. Is it willful ignorance / scum agenda pushing? To me this feels very different from how scum-hunting and a town counterclaims works. Contrast with how Corazon's counter-claim played out. Once the possibility that there could be multiple cops was suggested, he puts his initial "You're lying reaction aside." As for my tunneling of Vivax and FirmTofu, my arguments posted days ago remain unaddressed. + Show Spoiler +However, this is not a fool-proof way to pick apart scum and town. Good scum players will make their agenda pushing look like town scum-hunting as much as possible. But town scum-hunting will always look like town scum-hunting. Feel free to see if you can find other conversations in this game that feels like scum agenda pushing.
You two can decide whether or not this is a worthy technique, whether or not Tofu looks like he is pushing scum agenda, and whether or not you will vote my really solid scum reads, Vivax and FirmTofu.
If there are 3 votes on either Vivax or FirmTofu at the deadline tomorrow, I will hammer them down.
If instead, one of you still want to vote jrkirby and there are 3 or more votes on jrkirby, I promise to cast a policy lynch vote on jrkirby. And I fully expect to go into an endgame with scum victory.
Basically I will provide the 4th vote on any one of jrkirby, FirmTofu, or Vivax.
I also hope we don't go to no-lynch, as I would like to end this game as soon as possible.
Onegu, JarJarDrinks.
Balls in your court.
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EPT
