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EBWOP
On January 13 2013 07:14 Mocsta wrote: Wow. Thats it over the night shift.
Oats u sound like sno_man.
perhaps the aggresion u 2 have shown is why there is a lack of discussion.
I think u should read what i posted to him.
My questions are ice breakers and i have not a genuine comment from *YOU* to stimulate town conversation. In fact. You are deterring conversation.
@oatsmaster Why should i NOT treat is the outcome of your agressive posts [stopping fluid and positive town conversation] as scummy motivations
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On January 13 2013 07:05 Trotske wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 05:30 bringaniga wrote:On January 13 2013 04:38 Mandalor wrote: I was at a friend's birthday party yesterday and I'm still very much hung over. I'll just answer the questions briefly and promise I'll be more active tomorrow.
1) No, not a fan of policy lynching. It doesn't give us any information whatsoever. Even if we lynch a townie D1, we have a list of people who voted for him and we have people defending or accusing the guy. Looking for scum should be our top priority, always. I would only favor a lurker lynch if we can not come up with a good case.
2) That said, after observing the past two newbie games, I feel that the quiet guys are more likely to be scum. We'll have to pressure them to help us. I am yet to see a very outspoken scum player orchestrating town play in a newbie game. We should keep an eye open for players with low post count and most importantly a low amount of quality posts, wishy-washy reads ("maybe, perhaps, in theory he could maybe be scum") and zero own cases. This contribution is insufficient. I still require 20 words from you on any topic other than questionaire answers. Can you please explain what all your posts are about? your new scum hunting techniques have made it so I have not seen a single post from you that was useful at all. Trotske,
I agree his posts are ermm.. "diffferent?".. however, there are still to my knowledge 3 participants who have not contributed at all.
Acid, Shz, Glurio
@Trotske Since you are here, I may as well try to generate some meaningful discussion.
(1) Do you think it was reasonable to mention to Sn0_Man and Oatsmaster that their over-agressive/paranoid type early-game playstyle might actually be preventing people from talking (including the 3 I listed above)?
(2) Do you think that behaviour is a normal town approach to the game?
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On January 13 2013 04:32 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 03:55 OmniEulogy wrote: I think having people explain the reasoning behind their votes is fantastic but I don't think it goes far enough, I believe we should go through each others cases and not only agree/disagree but see if we can prove the case right or wrong ourselves while waiting for the defense of the person being accused. (it is important to wait for them to defend themselves first, otherwise we give them an escape with no effort on their part) I know this is done to some degree each time a case is made but in both of my last games we've made the mistake of lynching townies due to their arguments not standing up to one persons case. I'm hoping we can avoid that if everybody weighs in with not only their own case but their thoughts on the other cases as well.
It's a lot of extra effort but I believe it's a good way to discuss scum reads with each other and keep conversation strongly focused on scum hunting.
I like this a lot. It puts more work on townies, but it will become very difficult for scum to keep up appearances this way.
zarepath/Omni, I completely agree. I hope town takes this on.
Just remember, last game -Night1; I asked everyone to critically read my case on OmniEulogy.. only cDgCorazon reciprocated. (ending with:even though he initially thought it was flawed, after pondering, he was convinced OmniEulogy was high chance for scum @ his death).
So.. I say to you, that * I * will make the effort to provide rational, constructive feedback to your cases. With the current town atmosphere, I wouldn't bank on some of the others to help out.
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On January 13 2013 01:42 Oatsmaster wrote:
Lynching a scum read is good because it provides discussion around the lynchee which is helpful in locating scum.
For example, a day 1 scum lynch will almost surely not have any scum, depending on the situation so then just lynch everyone who wasnt on the wagon. Really optimistic example.
This is funny coming from you. *ALMOST SURELY NOT*
Didnt you play in Newbie 32...werent you lynched Day1 as scum?
I think its unlikely to lynch scum Day1, and in my 2 games we haven't achieved that. But obviously something went right in your game to lynch you.
So far, there havevn't been too many contributions; but a few of us have indicated wanting a combined scum hunt and bouncing ideas against each other. I 100% advocate this as well.
Perhaps this will be the key to lynching scum Day1 (after all I dont want you to feel alone )
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On January 13 2013 01:28 Oatsmaster wrote: My point was that the question is not a good question because what do we know about optimum scum behaviour?
You know I read this, and get a funny vibe.
Its almost a soft-town tell... ohh i cant be mafia because I know nothing about being mafia.
Now, last game we had a guy do a similar thing, he was town.. so for the time being, I will give you some leniency here.
I am going answer this because, I assume in *your-own-way* you are *trying* to contribute to the scum hunt.
We are newbies, with a maximum of 3 games. Of course we don't know about optimum behaviour. So what? That means both alignments do not know optimum, and we are at the same playing field. My games are 1-1 for town/mafia, that indicates level playing field too.
You are seriously derailing conversation here, but to what agenda?
The intention of the post is to start getting us townies to think about ways mafia try to persuade us to think. That way we can start to counter it.
If you can not see that, and in combination with the other things you have written, I have to seriously doubt your intentions.
@Oatsmaster Why are you so against town collaborating together to prepare for the scum hunt?
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On January 13 2013 07:45 Trotske wrote: 1. Yea I think it is very easy to intimidate people into thinking they shouldn't post because they might get fingers pointed at them for doing something like starting the conversation that needed to get started anyway or defending someone who they claim is scummy. I think it makes a bad town mindset for getting as much information about everyone was we can if townies are not as eager to post.
2. I think it hurts town so I don't think it is normal if town wants to win but I don't have alot of experience and have pretty much just read some guides.
Oh and to your first point I would say fluff posts are just as bad as not posting at all because it just distracts from the real posts that people need to read and I havn't seen bringaniga post anything that wasn't as waste of my time to read.
Thanks for the support Trotske. I am happy others agree Sn0_Man and Oatsmaster are creating a bad town environment.
Fair comment.
For your #2.. in past games feedback the veterans kept saying was.. this is a simple game.. town catch mafia. you ask questions to find scum. its that simple. I wouldn't fret on your experience, to me so far, you are taking a good approach trying to consider if a post is town or scum motivated.
Once the votes come through, is when we start to see alignments more clearly (At least in my experience)
[p.s] The guides are REALLY useful - make sure you read them again; also speak to the coaches. The feedback is invaluable.
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.... OK... your not a smurf of Chezinu the brown are you?
Anyways, what has everyone posting got to do with the below.
Please address these with the same courtesy all other players did.
Thank you.
On January 12 2013 13:09 Mocsta wrote: 1) Stance on Lurkers: i.e. Do you policy lynch?
2) How do you think scum would try to get influence with us?
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All.. I will be be away for at least the next 6 hrs.
Please continue conversations, we need more!!
I would give my reason for where I shall be.. but apparently "Oatsmaster" has banned me from using that word.
Ahh fuck it.. I have to clean ze pool more. [forgot to put Chlorine in it last week.. and yeah... a little bit infested ]
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On January 13 2013 08:42 Oatsmaster wrote: Mocsta, do you have any reads so far?
Yeah, and so far my best read has NOT addressed any of my questions to him.
Instead, my best read has responded by trying to dodge the questions and put the limelight on other participants.
##FoS: Oatsmaster
All you have done is successfully derailed the thread convo, and made people uncomfortable to post. Others have agreed with me. I see no town motivation for your behaviour.
You have continued this behaviour, and when asked about it, you dodge the questions and instead ask irrelevant questions to the mods.
If everyone had posted, this would be a vote. But because we are still waiting on 3 to 4 people, I will give benefit of the doubt and just lay finger of suspicion.
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Taking a break for lunch, and see a OMGUS vote from Oatsmaster.
<insert sarcasm> Well done, you are obviously a top candidate to lead the scum hunt.
Interesting that he doesnt even bother to read the 3 pages of thread since Day1 before laying down his vote.
Oatsmaster, you said you answered my direct questions? No you didnt.. If you need a refresher, try here:
On January 13 2013 07:18 Mocsta wrote: @oatsmaster Why should i NOT treat is the outcome of your agressive posts [stopping fluid and positive town conversation] as scummy motivations
On January 13 2013 07:50 Mocsta wrote: @Oatsmaster Why are you so against town collaborating together to prepare for the scum hunt?
As for your points, They are just plain wrong.
Your heuristics are weak, and confirmation bias is completely drowning you.
That you are willing to lay a case down when:
- Not all participants have even introduced themselves
- You have not read the thread and addressed criteria directed to you
- You are targeting one of the few trying to stimulate positive discussion
- Even worse, targeting with no actual case logic
is just plain stupid. And to me, looks like you don't care who your vote goes to.
I know as a townie, my vote is my most important weapon. I don't just throw it around lightly, and *hope* to catch scum. I scum hunt actively, create a collaborating town environment, and *know* I will catch scum.
You on the other hand, just throw the vote with wild abandon.
In my 2 games, I haven't seen a townie do that, and I still don't think I have seen a townie do it.
You have been upgraded from Finger of Suspicion to
##Vote: Oatsmaster
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On January 13 2013 14:20 Oatsmaster wrote: This game man.. Explain why you voted me in detail please Mocsta. It feels like you are relying on your previous town games to give you an automatic town read. About a townie throwing their vote in reckless abandon, please read newbie mafia XXXI. I don't think I'm doing it this game though :/ I have voted my scumread and I either push your lynch, or lay off you because I think that you are town. At the moment, YOUR OMGUS vote on me isn't convincing me. Everyone else, comment on the situation please. i already detailed it. That you ignore this is just fuether cause for concern
shz is dead right. I fos you. And then you omgus me.
I have not omgus. I laid out succintly my concerns with your play. And there is no way what you are doing is contributing positively. Hence the only possible explanation is scum motivation
your reaction is case on point. Instead of provide sound reasoning like a townie would. You prefer further emotional arguments trying to demand i explain myself when it was already there for all to see.
with your handling of this pressure. You have proven my vote was the right decision. Guess thats 2 scum games in a row that u r uncovered day 1
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I appreciate you stepping in the middle here. But this is more than alpha males beating chest.
Oatsmaster is out of line and is doing his most to prevent discussions. The thread feels like day3 and we have not even had our first lynch. i think oatsmaster has had a large part to play for this. I can only expect his intentions and attitude have been premeditated.
@bringa you still havent answered the first questions or participated in any meaningful discussions. Yet you have posted numerous times. This is not good enough. I am going to expect more from you over the next 20hrs. Your saving grace from me so far is oatsmaster scummy play and that acid is yet to contribute.
start contributing bringaniga.
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Welcome OmniEulogy.
FYI http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385389
On December 01 2012 23:39 ghost_403 wrote:
FLIPS Oatsmaster the goon was lynched Day 1. This is the game with the famous AxleGreaser.
---------------- Omni, I am used to your concern with me. I know each game is different, but just remember, you spent a lot of last game hounding me, and even JK'd me, which in the end proved I was town.
So, I don't have a problem if you are unsure of my alignment. This is smart thought process to take and I return the same to you. I stand by that as town, we shouldnt be calling out weak or strong town reads Day1, the information can only help scum make easier targets.
Like I keep saying to you, I am an ab-lib poster; with too much activity to try and bullshit. My motivations and intentions should be clear in my posts. I stand by my actions speaking louder than words.
In regards to actions speaking louder than words...Herein lies my problem with Oats - and why I voted him.
Initially I gave him benefit of the doubt and said.. hey.. you realise your not helping out town with your attitude .. instead he tries to aggressively intimidate me.. I then ask him 2 sets of questions specifically to him regarding his behaviour... he completely ignores them and tunnels me all over again.
His derailing on the thread, when there is already low activity to me, has led to a thriving scum environment (something I am trying to oppose here) - this with all the previous behaviour was grounds for my vote.. he follows up by saying I OMGUS him, which is completely wrong.
He is doing his best to try and intimidate me from contributing; and at the same time is not getting anyone else to contribute. In my 2 games, I have never seen town play this move; whether it was Day1/Day2/Day3. I can only read his motives as intentional, and scum aligned.
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On January 13 2013 19:37 Oatsmaster wrote: Instead you focus on somebody who has been active, playing his previous town meta, and has been trying to promote activity while defending himself from you.
I think he is scum. Is that not a good enough reason? Oatsmaster.. I have had enough of your behaviour. You are again completely out of line.
Once again, you are implementing emotional arguments and trying to intimidate others from posting. Let it be known, I will not be intimidated by you. I stand for an open environment, not the dictatorship that you seek.
When I gave the the FoS I thought maybe you were just trying to cock-block discussion; but your actions since then have been consistent.; consistently reckless. You are doing your utmost to derail the thread with your fast and loose play; obviously a good scum strategy to partake in.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Day1 activity has been extremely poor, even with my best efforts to counter. Who else has stepped up to promote discussion. There have been 1 or 2 other individuals. Perhaps you just decided to target whoever was the first poster to the thread was.
Let me guess, after your done with me, you will pursue them as well.
You are a MAJOR CULPRIT for the lack of activity this Day 1.
As such, let me remind you:
On January 13 2013 13:12 Mocsta wrote: You have been upgraded from Finger of Suspicion to
##Vote: Oatsmaster
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On January 13 2013 19:44 Oatsmaster wrote: So how do I get people to talk?
Theres a variety of methods. Forum Mafia operates a lot like real life, typically if you ask someone a question politely, they will reciprocate with a response - hopefully polite.
When you ask questions with your tone; 3 outcomes are standard:
1) They are intimidated, and capitulate to you. I assess your behaviour as seeking this.
2) They answer your question, and do no capitulate.[i]This is me. I am not scared of you. I know I am town, it is you who is trying to create havok where havok does not exist.[i] That you make this play so early indicates, scum see my proactive start to the game as a threat. So I take your tunneling as a complement.
3) They tell you to fuck off.
Now that you know why your question technique is poor.. lets try good questions:
1) @Oatsmaster You say you want to target Mocsta because "I think he is scum. Is that not a good enough reason? " So far, all your points are dredged in confirmation bias. You are looking for connections that do not exist. Have you tried thinking, why would Mocsta post what he does if he was town. I think you should, let me know if your points are then countered, and if your perspective has changed.
I think thats a good question in this situation.
2) @Oatsmaster You are tunneling one target, Mocsta; yet at least 1 individual is yet to post with 24hrs expired. Are you not concerned with this behaviour? Do you find this behaviour scummy? (to both points, that you ignore others have not posted, and that someone has not posted)
I think thats a good question in general
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On January 13 2013 20:03 OmniEulogy wrote: Haha Generally I think asking questions is how you have to do it. I know you have been but it's mostly been in regards to the discussion between you and Mocsta. I'm not saying ask the lurkiest of lurkers anything. You might not get an answer back. But I believe most of the other players would answer you.
For example I'm curious about how people find Bringaniga's posting. @Everyone Would you be willing to lynch him based on his current posting and why? I personally am against lynching Bringaniga right now. I feel that he has a town mindset behind his actions, and although it is annoying it is not very scummy yet.
Im disapointed with Bringaniga output. I have called him to respond as well at least once, possibly twice (yeah I know, I managed to do this, whilst "discussing" with Oatsmaster.
Im not sure if a see a townie mindset, or any mindset? seems like a fruitloop. Perhaps hes a bored VT; or TeMiL all over again *sigh*. I think treat him as a priority for Day2.
Right now, every time I want to walk away from Oatsmaster, he just keeps baiting me back. I really think the scum gambit for Day1, is to kill discussion and hope it never picks up. So far its working..How is it possible we are 4-5 pages in.. and over 24hrs have passed, this is not normal.
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On January 13 2013 20:16 OmniEulogy wrote: Mocsta I'd also like you to give your 2 cents about Bringaniga if you would. I'm not looking for anything in depth, just your opinion on him IF things remain the way they have been until the deadline.
Even though I touched bases on him last post, to answer your question specifically.
If things remain the way they are; Oatsmaster gets my vote over bringaniga.
If bringaniga posts nothing meaningful between now and lynch, I am happy to vote him instantly Day2.. I learnt from the last game, if your sure of mafia, and something new pops up, sometimes no point changing. (How many times did we lose voting out TeMiL.. because someone offered a confirmation biased post).
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On January 13 2013 19:59 zebezt wrote: Oats seems to be either playing scum or is acting like an idiot. Not easy to decide which it is. I think a scum would not stick his neck out this much so early on though.
I think Oats is trying to do 2 things
(1) Play "So-Scummy-He-Can't-Be-Scummy" This play has been so effective in past games I played, it allows you to be active, confuse town, but still survive.
& (2) Gambit: "Create Chaos by targeting a discussion promoter" I think Oats randomly chose me, possibly because I wrote the first post. Even calls me out for writing the first post
On January 13 2013 01:05 Oatsmaster wrote: Hey Mocsta, what was the point of your opening questions? Do you think you achieved your goal?
I think the gambit is to derail thread convo as much as possible... I mean right now, who are we actually thinking is genuine scum besides Oatsmaster? Thats exactly what scum want.. they sacrifice one player, and then can win the game by lurking low like the rest of town they intimidated to stop posting.
[As an aside.. how is that post even constructive to town... from his first post regarding me, he has decided to be of this aggressive untoward nature.]
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On January 13 2013 20:24 OmniEulogy wrote:I'm not sure Mocsta. I think we have a lot more to work with than D1 of our last game. Also, I was a bit impatient sorry I believe we can use today to get some answers from the EU guys. Shz, Mandalor, Glurio ect. should give us their input. Zarepath should also be around. It wasn't the best 24 hours we could hope for but I'm trying to work a few things out with the limited information. I'll try to have one good case about 5~ hours before the deadline. Two if it's needed. It sucks to have to hope people will respond but most of them have given reasons for their inactivity during the weekend. Now is their chance to prove they want to help town and come in with some fresh thoughts.
Agreed. Regardless of my thoughts on Oats, we need to pursue other leads so we are in good stead for Day 2.
Good to know we are on the same page; did you want to lead the discussion with the "low post" guys?
I would do it, but feel Oatsmaster will just try to derail it.. perhaps if you post, he will ignore it.
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On January 13 2013 20:29 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 20:21 zebezt wrote:On January 13 2013 20:05 OmniEulogy wrote: I've gotta jump in and say one thing Zebezt. Him mentioning the townie/blue/mafia ratio was before the game even started. Oops Got a bit carried away with my newly discovered filter skills I did the exact same thing last game, or in my first... maybe both. It happens You make an interesting point on Sn0 regardless. I think he's just acting as a paranoid townie though, which I am not implying is a bad thing I believe you should assume everybody is scum and have them prove themselves as town first. His activity level is low however but I'm not sure if I'd put him as #1 scum suspect at the moment.
Yeah.. hes not my #1.. its difficult.. the most important lesson I was taught from my first game was to avoid building association cases.
Concentrate on 1 scum, you either prove them innocent, or prove them guilty. If innocent move on, if guilty.. lynch.
I know this is hard... it is easy to think the way sn0_man/Oatsmaster entered the game was very similar.... but its very hard to pressure two players at the same time very well. Therefore, advice is to choose one, and focus until you get the answers you seek.
TL;DR Stay on one target, push them till you are satisfied...
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