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On December 04 2012 11:13 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
@Anyone
In your opinion, what differentiates bad(newbie) town play from scum play?
This one?
I feel like one of the major things that differentiate newbie play with scum play is the explanation that comes behind an accusation. I feel that newer players, when accusing others of being scum, will have a lot weaker arguments that are not particularly well thought out. Reasoning would mainly be either lack of experience, or just going on gut feeling that what someone has said in the past seems suspicious.
On the other hand, being scum means that you have to have a certain amount of thought behind what you say, as making a contradictory or just a random off-the-cuff statement could shine a light of suspicion on them, which obviously they want to avoid.
If a new player is scum, I also found from my real life experience from the game, they do prefer to wait for others to make motions against someone before being sheeping behind them and just agreeing with what others have said. This may not be true all the time, as a lot of new players do get warned about being too obvious about it, but it can happen when they cannot formulate their own attack in time.
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I agree that if you don't have much to go on then waiting a bit and formulating your opinions more is ok, but remember that you should post when you have something because waiting until you have an iron clad case will take too long and you need to post reads sooner to establish your "townyness" and spur discussion.
Guess I will have to wait until more people are up to get more feedback on my humongous post, seems that most people called it a night a while ago.
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On December 04 2012 10:05 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
1.) How many games of Mafia have you played / obs'd? Include roles if you wish.
2.) Would you lynch a lurker (I.E, few posts, little content) over a minor-moderate scumread? Explain.
3.) What is your favorite color?
On December 04 2012 10:04 yamato77 wrote:
Greetings gentlemen!
A few questions to spark ye olde town discussion:
1) How many games have you played on TL?
2) Where do you stand on lurker lynching D1?
3) Pie or Cheesecake?
These ones
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On December 04 2012 19:26 Kickstart wrote:
I agree that if you don't have much to go on then waiting a bit and formulating your opinions more is ok, but remember that you should post when you have something because waiting until you have an iron clad case will take too long and you need to post reads sooner to establish your "townyness" and spur discussion.
Guess I will have to wait until more people are up to get more feedback on my humongous post, seems that most people called it a night a while ago.
Do you mean like, 'lol scumslip', or like off 1 post?
Because a lot of things look scummy without context, same as stuff can look townie without context but looks scummy with context.
I think that we shouldnt jump to conclusions/vote like I did last game but
Dont be afraid to vote.
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EBWOP:
Your vote is very powerful :D
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Oats: I already answered those questions earlier in the thread.
On December 04 2012 10:57 Sylencia wrote:1) This is my first game of Mafia on TL, I've played it a bit offline, so I'm interested to see how different it is in comparison. 2) While I don't want to be trying to lynch more active townies, I feel that lynching lurkers has a negative impact for us, as it really gives up a day where we could be cleaning up the town, and also reduces the number of days we have to live. 3) Pie, cheesecake is disgusting (most of the time)  Favourite colour is orange, though a good yellow has always had a special place in my heart too 
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2012 14:52 Oatsmaster wrote:What. Axle stop having a pity party and just play to the best of your ability. Read the thread, form opinions, ask + Show Spoiler +make a case, pressure people. Explain your scumread on yamato more.
I think what happened previously was an error on my part. To gain value from it anyway.
As a person with no meta(game history) however it shows why from now on I will post deliberately and carefully. Noise and confusion like that will only ever get me
* lynched if I am scum.
* mislynched if am town.
I have considered your suggestions and and of them I have chosen to do these things.
'No more Pity'
'play to the best of your ability.'
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Now doing just that.
OatsMaster A question for you?
Is it a scum tell when one player tries to tell another player how to play?
When do scum do that and why?
When do town do that and why?
Remembering that Lynch all Liars is a thing that some people believe in.
What is your truthful answer to those two?
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On December 04 2012 19:50 AxleGreaser wrote:
'No more Pity'
Just an anecdote here, I have tried the pity play before, and people find it more annoying than anything and it does get you lynched, so it's a wise decision you've made 
(In the case I was in, I was bemoaning the fact I had gotten a vanilla with a vanilla power twice in one night - as this version gave everyone an extra power, but one of those powers was to gain no extra powers. The chance of getting that power was about 1/50 as well lol)
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On December 04 2012 19:50 AxleGreaser wrote:
Now doing just that.
OatsMaster A question for you?
Is it a scum tell when one player tries to tell another player how to play?
When do scum do that and why?
When do town do that and why?
Remembering that Lynch all Liars is a thing that some people believe in.
What is your truthful answer to those two?
I think its a null tell because we all want to get better and to help people get better, especially in Newbie games.
assuming ulterior motive.
Scum tell people how to play in order to confuse them and make them less effective and more useless for town.
town will do that because they want effective players. A good, organized town will stomp on scum any day of the week so if you can do that, town has a easier time in finding scum.
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On December 04 2012 19:45 Sylencia wrote:
<snip>
I feel that lynching lurkers has a negative impact for us, as it really gives up a day where we could be cleaning up the town, and also reduces the number of days we have to live.
<snip>
Can you explain this more?
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On December 04 2012 20:01 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 19:45 Sylencia wrote:
<snip>
I feel that lynching lurkers has a negative impact for us, as it really gives up a day where we could be cleaning up the town, and also reduces the number of days we have to live.
<snip>
Can you explain this more?
Sure, so my theory is this (and I guess the amount of activity kind of makes me feel more strongly about it):
When people talk, they will generally give off some sort of tell as to whether they're more likely to be good or not. Even if they don't, they have provided you with information. After time has passed, if everyone has read what everyone else has said, they should have plenty of information to go off. If we have 2 lurkers, those guys we have no information on. In addition, the chance they are a townie is so much higher than they would be mafia. Lynching a lurker on day 1 or maybe day 2 is essentially saying "I don't know, the information given too me is too confusing, let's just take a stab in the dark" - which is the easy way out, and also means that the mafia have already won by that point (not really, but they have a big advantage because they now know that they're in the clear for now). Also, unless the mafia team is some genius combination/afk, I highly doubt both mafia will remain silent during the discussions, meaning that you will be hearing an active mafia member talking and swaying people. The tricky part is catching them in the act.
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Ok,
Do you want to share scum reads or keep them to yourself?
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At the moment, I'd prefer to keep it to myself. Not to withhold information, but not to muddy the water with my suspicions, and also to give the ones I'm watching a chance to possibly slip up.
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k cool.
What do you think about kickstarts suspicion towards yamato?
Also what do you think about yamato?
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2012 11:15 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 11:13 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
@Anyone
In your opinion, what differentiates bad(newbie) town play from scum play? Intention. Scum play will always have the intent of not looking suspicious, or of blending in. New town play might look like obvious scum play but it could definitely be a case of too obvious to be scum.
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observation: The English above is very explicit in what it is saying.
The use of 'Intention.' as a one word sentence indicates the primary significance of it as an absolute imperative.
The analysis considers how one behavior, can be both a scum or a town play.
This is incongruous with my previous observations of meta in newbie games.
As that is so limited meh... I throw that away as more likely to mislead than help.
Hypothesis: This is not like the newbie games I have read.
Even more tellingly it asks for opinion about a topic at a level. 'bad(newbie) town'
This betrays a knowledge in the questioner, and an expectation of knowledge in the person asked, that there are other levels of play that they know both about and thus shared knowledge.
I could wrongly conclude shared knowledge is a scum tell, but I don't.
Most players here except me know one another.
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Minimum conclusion:
This is fair fight.
I can safely without fear play to the best of my ability and do no harm.
"First do no harm:" is powerful and honorable creed.
<but isnt it aganst the rules>
It is against the rules not to play to win..
A question that arises for me is win what?
You can win the match of mafia, go team, but if it broke or hurt the game, then you would truely have lost.
Near as I can tell the rules at the top each mafia game, are written by people who know the value of every word and degree of emphasis. Thus I hope they agree with my interpretation of the rules.
This is fair fight.
I can play to the best of my ability.
As the value of what I know depends on the skill with which I observe
I will state usually from memory what I saw before.
The knowledge i have:
In my obs of previous newbie games, I observed that thinking did not normally appear to me to go that deep.
I observed that SDM was the most valuable town asset.
As he was the most valuable town asset the obvious thing to do was for doc to protect him.
Thus scum would, probably, in newbie game kill someone else.
I thought that would be Aqua or Jacob.
There was no double double crosses anywhere.
The no lynch, made me suspicious of SDM.
While he had played to me as strong town.
If he was a very strong scum, he might have reached the same conclusion as I did hope the doc would protect him
and then scum would not nk at all and wind up with one of their own as confirmed town.
I had to throw that idea out, as I lack the actual experience to guess if in a newbie game that would be plausible.
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Why are you thinking about the game that is already over?
Why do you talk like this??
Just casually say stuff, if it doesnt sound natural please dont post it :D
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11589 Posts
I pressured Axle because he wasn't responding to questions in the thread. I thought he was hiding something but that is just how he posts apparently.
##Unvote
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my brain is melting reading axle's posting
I really want to understand but I cant
so yamato, what do you think about kickstart's long post about you and Rad?
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This post contains content on its own so that does not get lost in the last one.
The last post drew a conclusion from a ridiculous small amount of data.
That is not all the data it is based on just all that was quoted.
A lesson I learned along time ago when dealing with potential liars is never show all your cards to them.
The majority of people here are town. I, state that, I think my optimal play is to show a large fraction of what I know.
It is a dangerous risky play for town to tell other players what to do.
If you think I am doing it wrong you could try to tell me in game what I ought do.
I am prepared to be given wrong advice from scum if that then gets them lynched.
(I wonder how many deep that was.....)
(I am probably going to stop mentioning double double crosses and looking tat things from both sides as if you have not noticed I know that by now you are not going to.)
Finally, hence Importantly
I do not reach final conclusions no matter what the English implies.
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Oats I believe you asked me to change what I was doing.
As mentioned getting other people to do things is
a scum tell,
or helping a wounded (7/9)townie get back up of the floor
Does this meet with your approval so far?
Why or Why Not?
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EPT
