General Discussion - Page 2346

On March 11 2013 07:17 Porkz wrote:

This is fucking beautiful

On March 11 2013 06:51 Talron wrote:

I'll try! Not sure what's important tbh, because I find it interesting overall. Will try to get the most done - Note that this is just an overall conversation between Saga, Kuro, Fata and rmn, rather than an actual interview so there's a lot of topic jumping. I tried to translate and write things down on the fly.

Puppey and Xboct were "in hangover mode" btw. It'was what was pointed out by Kuro, who's also catched a cold.


Fata recently said in another interview, that he wants his team to play an agressive style, yet plays KotL+PL+DS, so he pointed out that he kinda had to resort to this lategame strat, as Na´Vi is more expirienced in those midgame aggression than they are and they would have had worse chances otherwise. He also mentioned, that despite picking a passive / turtle lineup, they yet played fairly agressive.

It was also asked about the itemchoice of Sven. It was a bit "overkill" in his eyes, because it delayed his BKB, which was way more needed.

About that mid Pandault usage of Dendi kuro simply said, that it was stupid of them. Kinda similar to the top engagement, that is "simply fail". They had DD on Gondar, which in his eyes is the best rune for Gondar, so they tried, but Black did everything right in buying time, so they could not burst him down and the battle turned eventually.

About the draft in comparison to the G-League finals.
About Kotl -> Is he the strongest support and did you feel his presence at all in this partiucal game?
-> KotL is #1 support with NA atm and we definetly felt his strong presence. "Why did you let hero x / y through" -> Kuro didn't want to answer this question, as it's kinda redundant, because one game you lose vs. hero x/y but then win against those in the next with another lineup. But overall Na´Vi doesn't have any drafting issues, he says and wasn't what it came down to in this game.
KotL+PL is nothing new and it's obvious, that people will pick PL, if they have KotL already, if they want to win.

About G-League game #4: "Was the Pipe on sylla the right itemchoice?"
Not really, LGD.int just wasn't able to break through iG anyway. You could see that at the bottom defense, by looking at ChuaN; who instantly stunned the spiritbear, so he could get one hit off maximum. They just did everything right and LGD.int in the end lost their concentration due to the game simply being so intense.
Then they're praising YYF's Batrider play, taking the hero's potential to the max. and talking about his strengths as a hero in general, without being in the hands of a skillful player like YYF and come to the conclusion, that he's really strong especially Dagger+FS, which is even stronger in lower level games.

Comparing iG to LGD.int they're overall younger and as such iG obviously have way more expirience especially in those ridiculous lategame matches. But for being such a young team LGD.int are still doing really well.

Comparing the gamestyles of both teams:
Kuro thought there was coming something new, but in the end there was nothing. Also a bit disappointed about it, because there was mentioned something in some interviews. But it's only natural to stick to the practiced strategies, as they want to win. In his eyes there's a need for a patch right now, because the meta has come somewhat stagnant.
[It seems like IceFrog also watched G-League finals ingame]

Why do chinese drafts differ from western so much - especially wisp? Are the westerns just that far behind or what is it about? Also you see LGD.int picking Rubick 1st, which you really don't see here.
Because of the high speed pressure in chinese games, especially iG wisp is no use, because then he's basicly like having one hero less. He works in the western scene, because they are slower and not as pracitced
- Fata
Wisp relocate is imba but at the same time useless, because compared to other supports you have to bet on the enemy making mistakes. In the last game for the example there would be completely no use for wisp, as they've been running around as 5 anyway.
- Kuro

Why does Na´Vi yet value Wisp so high? Are you not able to do, what the chinese do?
We've had exactly 3 scrims, since the new roster was formed. So we actually do lack the practice against it.

Could you consider a team, which values Wisp so highly for example Fnatic do well against in chinese teams?
Maybe once, but they'll just ban it afterwards, if they see they're good with it. At top level DotA you don't ban heroes for the sake of the heroes, but rather you ban against players / the team.
These days it's kinda hard to draft, as you kinda want to ban against your opponents, but also have to ban those superstrong heroes. Basicly the draft goes like this: "Team joins game and admin say x is 1stpick y has 2ndpick. And we just say: Okay we don't want them to have for example Nyx & KotL. - that's it." At the moment you get just some heroes and win the game because of certain heroes [mostly Nyx, Bat or KotL]
For example in G-League game #4 KotL was the hero, which won iG the game, despite LGD having Juggernaut, who is really good against that illuminate spam, so you could see there, that LGD was basicly bleeding for giving iG that hero.

So what's the thing with KotL? Western teams usually go for either Juggernaut due to healward+Sylla [nth] or Clockwerk, AA+Visage to hookshot him and nuke him down globally [dignitas]
Furion+Naix is what Fata usually does or counter him otherwise globally, when leaving KotL through intentionally. This still wouldn't do shit against iG he says, because you still wouldn't be able to break highground.
What would you suggest to balance with him?
Maybe some CD numbers about illuminate. Apart from that Kuro thinks there is no counter to either KotL or PL, neither hero nor strategywise, that's why they're firstpicked, as they are always good.
Overall the whole "sniping strategies" such as the one used by dignitas against KotL are not realiable, as a good KotLwill stay very far back and also supports will usually have something to get away with force, mek and whatnot.

Then Kuro said something about why Na´Vi lost against mouz and according to him it came down to the very start of it, where they gave up those kills. Fata adds, that Na´Vis problem was, that they just couldn't fight without RP and also wouldn't have a chance against PL splitpush, especially without RP, since Panda Ult doesn't do jack against PL, who already has at least a bit of farm.
Overall Na´VI should have just won one teamfight, because of the great comeback potential and the map dominance afterward, due to sven who can kill everything within 2 seconds adn they great teamfight ultis, so mouz kept avoiding fights while their ults were up, but also engaged, when they were down - they did everything right. Despite having an advantage and 2 hex, mouz would still fear the teamfight of Na´Vi.
The major mistakes were the roshfight in which Sven had no vision, which Na´Vi should have one.

Why does Gyro get "ignored" in China? He's so popular in the western scene.
-> Well, where would you put him? Carry? There are way better carries than him. Solomid? There are also better heroes than him. He's more popular in the western scene, as you have way more space. The sad truth is, that the overall skillevel here in the scene is just lower adn the same thing goes for wisp.

How many minutes would you think iG would need against let's say Fnatic? Especially looking forward to TI3.
"iG would need 15 minutes". Kuro was in comp DotA for roughly 7 years now and it's always been like that. At the beginning of the year the western scene has always been better, but when it counts China just dominates. In order to step up the game and be on par with the chinese it's not necesarily to move to China, but rather the infrastructure here not really allowing stuff like this, educationwise. Because in China for example you wouldn't be screwed without a proper job and you can actually afford to play 8-12 hours a day.
The whole scene needs to evolve in order to get up to par with the asian teams. You can see this really well in LGD.int. They've been there 3 months and they're in the G-League finals, despite not even having bignamed players like Brax or 1437.

Kuro you said in an interview, that you think that a mixed nationality team can't go to the top. Yet you're the only german on Na´Vi. Or Fnatic for example. How is that?
"Well I am pretty much the exception I think. But overall I think I exaggerated a bit. Yet overall my statement stands. Being from the same nation will always be better. Not saying it's not going to succeed, but it's not going to be as good"

Do you think online games don't matter as much as LAN?
I am not going to say, that nothing besides the international matters, because that wouldn't be true. However overall the LAN games games are way more important and say more. To put in a simple way: there currently is no team that will perform as good as Na´Vi. This might sound stupid, but in general it's not even hard to win a single tournament. The thing is about staying at the top. A team like nth might win a DH with ancientstacking or Fnatic winning with some midpulls. That's why the previous Na´Vi squad had so much respect. Not trying to take away anything from either team, but it's just about winning a perfect timeframe, where the team was succesful. If for example mouz would've attended a LAN in january, they would've won as well, but would've fallen off a bit by now. It's being about better, but having the better idea just like the ancientstacking for example. It was their new thing and knew how to execute it properly, people didn't knew how to deal with it and so they won.
Na´VI is the only EU team in the past to stay at the top constantly. Looking back you had the chinese: EHOME 2010, DK 2011 and iG2012. But you have to think about it that way: They worked ridiculously hard for achieving that and kept working hard after winning multiple tournaments. If a western team wins a major tournament, they start slacking, read forumposts, read their tweets and start fapping to how good the people talk about them and then fall off aterwards. Good example would be the DH winners so far, mtw / nth.
It's a lot about your mental status on LANs, just like it is in real sports, where the hometeam usually is playing a bit better than usual, because of the homecrowd supporting them. Same with Na´VI in Starladder. It's their home and people there only cheer for them

Would you like to have a ridiculously huge patch before the international?
Yes, for sure. The first thing I'd like to read would be "PL is removed from the game and is now a neutral creep"
DS, Mag, Bat, Nyx, Kotl are the 5 "imba" heroes right now. What would you change about them to tone them down properly?
It's normal to have a bit of imbalance, but those are a tad too much. With this pool firstpick can almost be considered imbalanced. Today's DotA is basicly about which team has more imba. There is barely any strategy behind it. Surprise picks only work for a single game, because the next game it's going to be banned the next game, just like it was in g-league finals. But on the other hand Game #3 should have been won by iG, because they did some cruical mistakes, despite being in the lead. However I don't agree with the SnY on Naix. What I do I agree with is the VG on magnus, because it was for tankiness, which alone wins them the teamfight.
Bat: Flying vision reduced, because that's a pretty unique mechanics. It's like a 18 sec aghs NS. For example tone down his MS during his ulti. Maybe increase manacost or decrease strgain, rebalance the napalm turnrate
Nyx: Carapace is just fucked up. Back when I read the changelog I was like "Nyx OP". You press 1 button to basicly be invulnerable. His manabreak also is too strong. in g-league finals it was like a 4sec laguna blade on the batrider 70+mins into the game. But the mainproblem is carapace. Running into a sentry as invis hero usually gety you killed - not as NA. Thanks to carapace. He really needs to be toned down somewhat. The only hero I ever hated so much was the very old Spectre, which had the stunning dispersion around 5 years ago. "You basicly had a 22% chance to instantly lose the game". Carapace is basicly like that.
KotL: There's no use to think about how to nerf him. He'll hopefully be nerfed soon anyway. Also you gotta ban him anyway.

They're still talking at this point, but I'm kinda losing the overview atm, so I'll stop at this point - Sorry :/. Please note, that I might have translated some things wrong or misunderstood some things, as I translated on the fly, while writing things down. I am just roughly translating what they are talking about. Don't ge the idea to quot anything form what I've translated anywhere, because this is as inofficial as it can get.

Cheers!

#E: nvm just a handful more small questions.

Which heroes do you miss in Dota2 metagamewise and which are your favorites?
Zeus, Rhasta, AA, Pugna, Lion mid, Invoker ... Almost every hero which isn't played atm and anything that isn't PL.
- Fata
I don't really care. Atm I mainy play Rubick. Hell, I can steal carapace if I want to!
-Kuro

What about Qojqva, Fata? Will he be the official member?
*This my personal note [talron] : some weird troll talk, which results in Saga saying, that it basicly means, that he's going to be added officially soon.

Kuro you said, that you think cosmetics are a waste of money, yet you showed off your new rubick set today?
Well, I have to show support to valve somehow. But still it's a "waste of money" somewhat.

On March 11 2013 07:50 BurningSera wrote:
Interesting read, but I'm disappointed, kuroky sounds so narrowminded and pigeon hole himself on the ban/picks. Guess what, even pl/eza/ds/na etc 'strong' supports removed from this game iG would still win. Not that I'm a blind fan of iG, iG really showed that they are capable of playing so many heroes/line up but they are not unbeatable, game3&4 wad rather sloppy play from them. Anyway, What kuroky said sound just like what he said in early beta about the map size imba etc. I want to hear what puppey think.

On March 11 2013 07:50 BurningSera wrote:
Interesting read, but I'm disappointed, kuroky sounds so narrowminded and pigeon hole himself on the ban/picks. Guess what, even pl/eza/ds/na etc 'strong' supports removed from this game iG would still win. Not that I'm a blind fan of iG, iG really showed that they are capable of playing so many heroes/line up but they are not unbeatable, game3&4 were rather sloppy play from them (compared to game1/2). Anyway, What kuroky said sound just like what he said in early beta about the map size imba etc. I want to hear what puppey think.

On March 11 2013 07:50 BurningSera wrote:
Interesting read, but I'm disappointed, kuroky sounds so narrowminded and pigeon hole himself on the ban/picks. Guess what, even pl/eza/ds/na etc 'strong' supports removed from this game iG would still win. Not that I'm a blind fan of iG, iG really showed that they are capable of playing so many heroes/line up but they are not unbeatable, game3&4 were rather sloppy play from them (compared to game1/2). Anyway, What kuroky said sound just like what he said in early beta about the map size imba etc. I want to hear what puppey think.

On March 11 2013 08:07 ViZe wrote:
Honestly I'm not even convinced pl too strong though he will probably get a nerf anyway. KotL, Nyx, Batrider will definitely see nerfs too. DS, Mag, N'aix and Sylla might get nerfs too

The rest I don't know

On March 11 2013 08:23 BurningSera wrote:
Pl/eza/na will get nerfed for sure after this, especially pub is now exploded with them, while big or small nerf depends on how icefrog look at them. The funniest thing is that rarely anyone give a damn to that pl buff back at that patch(have a look at that thread xD to me he really deserves that, I am so glad that pl back to comp scene) and eza has been just like that for so long, na buff on the other hand is so good in this era of 'facerush'.

On March 11 2013 09:16 Gheizen64 wrote:
PL, NA, Kotl, Bat, DS, Magnus will get nerfs for sure. Sylla probably too.

I want the patch already, and Abaddon in game!

On March 11 2013 09:20 FinestHour wrote:
sylla and naix dont really deserve nerfs imo the rest maybe there are already so many options for dealing with those heroes