|
|
On October 10 2012 04:40 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 04:30 Nevuk wrote:
He needs the right lineup and to be picked against a certain lineup as well. Alchemist/Razor/Bat is a -armor aoe, aoe damage spam fest. Bat lets Razor stay in range of people who would otherwise just turn and run away, Alchemist and Bat are innately tanky and make for poor targets for many single target spells. Plasma field (i think it's field... they changed the name or something), firefly, acid spray can make a death field for even high hp heroes.
Against a lineup with no single target spells Razor's changes are very minor, or lineups where the single target spells aren't the point. (Tidehunter for example, gush is a good spell but he can cast it on a hero with lower armor than Razor anyways and I don't really think people are picking him solely to gush Razor). Tide/Veno/Sylla/Leshrac/Furion, etc.. The vision on his drain is probably the most important thing added.
The shitty thing on Razor besides his ult is his stat gain, it's pretty pathetic for an agility hero. I read that as "against a lineup you don't pick razor against, razor isn't that good." picking furion into Storm Tinker isn't very good of an idea either.
I'm arguing that Razor isn't imbalanced. I don't think he's going to be a top pick. He is probably going to be picked but only situationally. I actually really like Razor as a hero I just fail to see him suddenly becoming a top pick again.
On the topic of Razor : NB, what do you like to get on him post 6.75? (question goes out to other players too, NB is just the one talking about him the most)
|
For alchemist i often prefer something like a phase boot into dagger kinda build that similar to TA and run him as a ganking semi carry/pusher rather than a hard carry farmer. The reason is that even though you lead in gold, you still need to shut down the enemy gold source early and with the new gold system, ganking benefit you way more than farming. Another reason is the physical nuker scale WAY down once the enemy team finish mek which could be rushed by some power leveling jungler around 13-15 mins.
Changing topic: i have been playing rubick quite a lot lately since i havent play him much since he got released in dota1. I am doing decently well but often run out of Patience waiting for the big spells in teamfight to steal. What do if the enemy has an enigma/tide that just save ulti until you get in their effective range?
On October 10 2012 05:17 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 04:40 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 10 2012 04:30 Nevuk wrote:
He needs the right lineup and to be picked against a certain lineup as well. Alchemist/Razor/Bat is a -armor aoe, aoe damage spam fest. Bat lets Razor stay in range of people who would otherwise just turn and run away, Alchemist and Bat are innately tanky and make for poor targets for many single target spells. Plasma field (i think it's field... they changed the name or something), firefly, acid spray can make a death field for even high hp heroes.
Against a lineup with no single target spells Razor's changes are very minor, or lineups where the single target spells aren't the point. (Tidehunter for example, gush is a good spell but he can cast it on a hero with lower armor than Razor anyways and I don't really think people are picking him solely to gush Razor). Tide/Veno/Sylla/Leshrac/Furion, etc.. The vision on his drain is probably the most important thing added.
The shitty thing on Razor besides his ult is his stat gain, it's pretty pathetic for an agility hero. I read that as "against a lineup you don't pick razor against, razor isn't that good." picking furion into Storm Tinker isn't very good of an idea either. I'm arguing that Razor isn't imbalanced. I don't think he's going to be a top pick. He is probably going to be picked but only situationally. I actually really like Razor as a hero I just fail to see him suddenly becoming a top pick again. On the topic of Razor : NB, what do you like to get on him post 6.75? (question goes out to other players too, NB is just the one talking about him the most)
Personally when it come to razor i often favor skilling QW and skip the movespeed spell in general if i get free farm. It simply give way more damage especially if you max W first in a 1v1 situation. The hero pre 6.75 have a huge problem with survival during teamfight in order for him to show his full effectiveness. post 6.75 the single target purge help in a TON since the only way they could shut him down is using an AoE spells array which wwere not designed to shut down carry to begin with (nuke less etc).
Item on razor you need to get base on the enemy team. Basicly you need to out tank, out run and then damage. Often in time if you get an early level lead(2-3 level around 15 mins mark), just dont even care about tanking items. Otherwise match it with enemy carries: pipe traquil pointbooster etc... After that you take care of your movespeed by either drum/manta then get attack speed to simply show your full out put damage potential once you got max W charge (MoM/thunderhammer/AC etc). Skill wise i often skip ulti until i max the first 3 skill first, there are so many rare situation that you can land the -armor correctly while still survive/dealing dmg(alchemist helps this out a TON).
|
I don't see how ganking benefits alchemist way more than farming. The new gold system isn't that big a difference to the old one that you are suddenly going to get more from ganking than farming.
Here is the comparison image: http://i.imgur.com/tU0pX.png
|
On October 10 2012 05:17 NB wrote:
For alchemist i often prefer something like a phase boot into dagger kinda build that similar to TA and run him as a ganking semi carry/pusher rather than a hard carry farmer. The reason is that even though you lead in gold, you still need to shut down the enemy gold source early and with the new gold system, ganking benefit you way more than farming. Another reason is the physical nuker scale WAY down once the enemy team finish mek which could be rushed by some power leveling jungler around 13-15 mins.
Ganking will never get you more gold than farming, and thats even more true for alchemist out of all heroes
And yep, especially against an enigma.
|
On October 10 2012 05:26 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 05:17 NB wrote:
For alchemist i often prefer something like a phase boot into dagger kinda build that similar to TA and run him as a ganking semi carry/pusher rather than a hard carry farmer. The reason is that even though you lead in gold, you still need to shut down the enemy gold source early and with the new gold system, ganking benefit you way more than farming. Another reason is the physical nuker scale WAY down once the enemy team finish mek which could be rushed by some power leveling jungler around 13-15 mins. Ganking will never get you more gold than farming, and thats even more true for alchemist out of all heroes And yep, especially against an enigma.
it doesnt give you more gold but it will increase your advantage way more than static farming. This is because you not only gain gold, you also taking gold away from enemy team plus giving your teammates assist gold PLUS experience. This overall will benefit you(as a whole team) way more than farming.
edit: well happy 6k post.... meh wrote this as my 6k contribution then http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374217
|
On October 10 2012 05:26 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 05:17 NB wrote:
For alchemist i often prefer something like a phase boot into dagger kinda build that similar to TA and run him as a ganking semi carry/pusher rather than a hard carry farmer. The reason is that even though you lead in gold, you still need to shut down the enemy gold source early and with the new gold system, ganking benefit you way more than farming. Another reason is the physical nuker scale WAY down once the enemy team finish mek which could be rushed by some power leveling jungler around 13-15 mins. Ganking will never get you more gold than farming, and thats even more true for alchemist out of all heroes And yep, especially against an enigma.
except if ur bountyhunter... Or rubick with track
|
Alch scales well with items due to 1 BAT and farms really fast due to greed. That argument is probably least valid on him of all heroes.
If you want to win by keeping them down rather than keeping you up, don't pick alch. Pick TA or NS etc.
|
On October 10 2012 05:29 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 05:26 Erasme wrote:On October 10 2012 05:17 NB wrote:
For alchemist i often prefer something like a phase boot into dagger kinda build that similar to TA and run him as a ganking semi carry/pusher rather than a hard carry farmer. The reason is that even though you lead in gold, you still need to shut down the enemy gold source early and with the new gold system, ganking benefit you way more than farming. Another reason is the physical nuker scale WAY down once the enemy team finish mek which could be rushed by some power leveling jungler around 13-15 mins. Ganking will never get you more gold than farming, and thats even more true for alchemist out of all heroes And yep, especially against an enigma. it doesnt give you more gold but it will increase your advantage way more than static farming. This is because you not only gain gold, you also taking gold away from enemy team plus giving your teammates assist gold PLUS experience. This overall will benefit you(as a whole team) way more than farming. edit: well happy 6k post.... meh wrote this as my 6k contribution then http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374217
That doesn't make sense. There's better heroes out there that can impact the game more with "ganking" than an alchemist so why on earth would you pick a hero that can farm super fast and isn't as effect as a ganker and go forsake farming in favour for ganking. Farming with an alchemist then joining the game most likely gives you a greater benefit then ganking with an alchemist. It just seems like an incredibly inefficient way to play a hero that can farm incredibly fast and thus potentially impact the game before the other teams carry.
Your logic could almost be applied to all carries. Why farm as a carry when you can go gank and benefit your team way more? I mean alchemist isn't a CK that has this natural damage ability and a instant potential for 4 second stun with a pseudo blink. Sometimes you benefit your team way more by farming and getting your items so you can be a force when they need you to be.
|
On October 10 2012 05:29 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 05:26 Erasme wrote:On October 10 2012 05:17 NB wrote:
For alchemist i often prefer something like a phase boot into dagger kinda build that similar to TA and run him as a ganking semi carry/pusher rather than a hard carry farmer. The reason is that even though you lead in gold, you still need to shut down the enemy gold source early and with the new gold system, ganking benefit you way more than farming. Another reason is the physical nuker scale WAY down once the enemy team finish mek which could be rushed by some power leveling jungler around 13-15 mins. Ganking will never get you more gold than farming, and thats even more true for alchemist out of all heroes And yep, especially against an enigma. it doesnt give you more gold but it will increase your advantage way more than static farming. This is because you not only gain gold, you also taking gold away from enemy team plus giving your teammates assist gold PLUS experience. This overall will benefit you(as a whole team) way more than farming. edit: well happy 6k post.... meh wrote this as my 6k contribution then http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374217
LOL I thought you were firebolt while i read your entire post because iv become so accustomed to everyones icons.
Gratz on your 6k, and more importantly, your archon 
|
so i'm still relatively new to dota2 (only played a little over a month) but i've logged a lot of games. i play mid a lot w/ invoker and tinker and do well but for some reason i've started running into pudge (never faced him mid before yesterday now i've faced him 4-5 times) and i keep getting owned. everytime i try to last hit pudge just runs up w/ rot and hooks me and i'm screwed. not really sure what to do. do i just have to concede that he will win the lane and play safe or leave the lane and gank more?
thinking about it a bit i don't think i've faced him with invoker or if i have i did well beause i don't remember it. its with tinker and rubick that i have a lot trouble vs pudge.
|
On October 10 2012 05:40 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 05:29 NB wrote:On October 10 2012 05:26 Erasme wrote:On October 10 2012 05:17 NB wrote:
For alchemist i often prefer something like a phase boot into dagger kinda build that similar to TA and run him as a ganking semi carry/pusher rather than a hard carry farmer. The reason is that even though you lead in gold, you still need to shut down the enemy gold source early and with the new gold system, ganking benefit you way more than farming. Another reason is the physical nuker scale WAY down once the enemy team finish mek which could be rushed by some power leveling jungler around 13-15 mins. Ganking will never get you more gold than farming, and thats even more true for alchemist out of all heroes And yep, especially against an enigma. it doesnt give you more gold but it will increase your advantage way more than static farming. This is because you not only gain gold, you also taking gold away from enemy team plus giving your teammates assist gold PLUS experience. This overall will benefit you(as a whole team) way more than farming. edit: well happy 6k post.... meh wrote this as my 6k contribution then http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374217 That doesn't make sense. There's better heroes out there that can impact the game more with "ganking" than an alchemist so why on earth would you pick a hero that can farm super fast and isn't as effect as a ganker and go forsake farming in favour for ganking. Farming with an alchemist then joining the game most likely gives you a greater benefit then ganking with an alchemist. It just seems like an incredibly inefficient way to play a hero that can farm incredibly fast and thus potentially impact the game before the other teams carry. Your logic could almost be applied to all carries. Why farm as a carry when you can go gank and benefit your team way more?
There is actually a reason into that: i dont think there is any cost effective end game item that could be purchase using gold apart from rapier. The bigger the item you purchase, the less cost effective the item will be which gives room for the enemy to catch up with good spells chain etc. I do, treat alchemist in a way that he could scale into team fight much EARLIER than normal carries with farm lead. By early i mean getting an early drum, may be early phaseboot/medalion that could help out teamfights/push around tier 1 contesting battles. This is achieved by putting only 1 point in E at level 1 and maxing QW right after.
|
On October 10 2012 05:49 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 05:40 Numy wrote:On October 10 2012 05:29 NB wrote:On October 10 2012 05:26 Erasme wrote:On October 10 2012 05:17 NB wrote:
For alchemist i often prefer something like a phase boot into dagger kinda build that similar to TA and run him as a ganking semi carry/pusher rather than a hard carry farmer. The reason is that even though you lead in gold, you still need to shut down the enemy gold source early and with the new gold system, ganking benefit you way more than farming. Another reason is the physical nuker scale WAY down once the enemy team finish mek which could be rushed by some power leveling jungler around 13-15 mins. Ganking will never get you more gold than farming, and thats even more true for alchemist out of all heroes And yep, especially against an enigma. it doesnt give you more gold but it will increase your advantage way more than static farming. This is because you not only gain gold, you also taking gold away from enemy team plus giving your teammates assist gold PLUS experience. This overall will benefit you(as a whole team) way more than farming. edit: well happy 6k post.... meh wrote this as my 6k contribution then http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374217 That doesn't make sense. There's better heroes out there that can impact the game more with "ganking" than an alchemist so why on earth would you pick a hero that can farm super fast and isn't as effect as a ganker and go forsake farming in favour for ganking. Farming with an alchemist then joining the game most likely gives you a greater benefit then ganking with an alchemist. It just seems like an incredibly inefficient way to play a hero that can farm incredibly fast and thus potentially impact the game before the other teams carry. Your logic could almost be applied to all carries. Why farm as a carry when you can go gank and benefit your team way more? There is actually a reason into that: i dont think there is any cost effective end game item that could be purchase using gold apart from rapier. The bigger the item you purchase, the less cost effective the item will be which gives room for the enemy to catch up with good spells chain etc. I do, treat alchemist in a way that he could scale into team fight much EARLIER than normal carries with farm lead. By early i mean getting an early drum, may be early phaseboot/medalion that could help out teamfights/push around tier 1 contesting battles. This is achieved by putting only 1 point in E at level 1 and maxing QW right after.
But when do I skill T, X, or M?
I thought we already covered this ITT. Not everyone uses the same hotkeys.
|
United States47024 Posts
On October 10 2012 05:49 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 05:40 Numy wrote:On October 10 2012 05:29 NB wrote:On October 10 2012 05:26 Erasme wrote:On October 10 2012 05:17 NB wrote:
For alchemist i often prefer something like a phase boot into dagger kinda build that similar to TA and run him as a ganking semi carry/pusher rather than a hard carry farmer. The reason is that even though you lead in gold, you still need to shut down the enemy gold source early and with the new gold system, ganking benefit you way more than farming. Another reason is the physical nuker scale WAY down once the enemy team finish mek which could be rushed by some power leveling jungler around 13-15 mins. Ganking will never get you more gold than farming, and thats even more true for alchemist out of all heroes And yep, especially against an enigma. it doesnt give you more gold but it will increase your advantage way more than static farming. This is because you not only gain gold, you also taking gold away from enemy team plus giving your teammates assist gold PLUS experience. This overall will benefit you(as a whole team) way more than farming. edit: well happy 6k post.... meh wrote this as my 6k contribution then http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374217 That doesn't make sense. There's better heroes out there that can impact the game more with "ganking" than an alchemist so why on earth would you pick a hero that can farm super fast and isn't as effect as a ganker and go forsake farming in favour for ganking. Farming with an alchemist then joining the game most likely gives you a greater benefit then ganking with an alchemist. It just seems like an incredibly inefficient way to play a hero that can farm incredibly fast and thus potentially impact the game before the other teams carry. Your logic could almost be applied to all carries. Why farm as a carry when you can go gank and benefit your team way more? There is actually a reason into that: i dont think there is any cost effective end game item that could be purchase using gold apart from rapier. The bigger the item you purchase, the less cost effective the item will be which gives room for the enemy to catch up with good spells chain etc. I do, treat alchemist in a way that he could scale into team fight much EARLIER than normal carries with farm lead. By early i mean getting an early drum, may be early phaseboot/medalion that could help out teamfights/push around tier 1 contesting battles. This is achieved by putting only 1 point in E at level 1 and maxing QW right after.
While from a strict stats perspective this is true, it doesn't account for the fact that physical damage stats scale multiplicatively, rather than additively.
|
Pudge is a popular pub pick. He will be picked most games unfortunately.
Stay further back. Try to keep vision of the high ground and keep the creeps between you and him. Harass him whenever he comes forward. Many mid heroes will have some sort of disable (invoker coldsnap (especially if he takes creep aggro) and rubick telekinesis), so burn it if he does manage to hook you or gets a rune that lets him get close (invis, haste).
He has no base armor and no ranged farming techniques (you can't use hook to farm). Abuse this to keep him away from the creepwave.
|
Did puppey just imply that the god to lgd thing is real?
|
On October 10 2012 05:49 NB wrote:
There is actually a reason into that: i dont think there is any cost effective end game item that could be purchase using gold apart from rapier. The bigger the item you purchase, the less cost effective the item will be which gives room for the enemy to catch up with good spells chain etc. I do, treat alchemist in a way that he could scale into team fight much EARLIER than normal carries with farm lead. By early i mean getting an early drum, may be early phaseboot/medalion that could help out teamfights/push around tier 1 contesting battles. This is achieved by putting only 1 point in E at level 1 and maxing QW right after.
dude alchemist gets 800 gpm clearing the jungle idk why you would want to gank with him
On October 10 2012 04:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
I read that as "against a lineup you don't pick razor against, razor isn't that good."
picking furion into Storm Tinker isn't very good of an idea either.
razor does fine against lineups with few or no single target spells
that's like saying you counterpick nukers with antimage
|
On October 10 2012 05:56 Yoshi- wrote:
Did puppey just imply that the god to lgd thing is real?
I don't understand how this is supposed to work.
|
Yah... I agree that ganking alchemist is way more effective than people are giving credit. A simple medallion (which coincidentally addresses your mana regen and base armour issue) plus either a dagger or lothars results in one of the scariest solo-killing combos in the game atm. -12 armour + 360 physical damage nuke + 4 seconds of autoattack in ult form is nothing to scoff at. It's not like farming and ganking are diametrically opposed either. It's really easy to enter a "solo-kill enemy farmer -> free-farm the lane" rhythm and that style of play absolutely crushes pubs.
|
who cares if everywhere on your screen is gold...
|
dota down for anyone else? incoming patch?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
