EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 1081
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Raidern
Brazil3821 Posts
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
On September 22 2012 10:10 Shikyo wrote: Again, people don't understand the game balance. Heroes aren't made to be competitively viable. Anyone who thinks that heroes are supposed to be equally useful in all situations or in any situations are looking at it the wrong way. Also, people who would determine ones weakness or strengths without a large amount of data including after teams have adapted to them also, are very naive.If you're drafting or trying to balance a game, there's no other way to do it properly than being cynical. If you draft a bad hero thinking "oh he's good anyway" you'll give a handicap to yourself. If you draft a hero that's bad but that a teammate can play so well that the performance will be better than if you picked a better hero they can't play as well you're again being cynical. There's no "too cynical" when talking about game balance. There certainly is such a thing as being too cynical when it comes to balance, because in a game like dota it's very hard to even define balance. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
On September 22 2012 10:29 Raidern wrote: what's the best way to counter meepo? i just got owned -_- aoe, burst single target damage, focus one clone down instantly before they can react | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On September 22 2012 10:17 hollabackk wrote: Sorry for being ignorant, but why exactly is it core on meepo? Is it just to set up poofs? To get in range to net, before walking up and getting the rest to poof onto him. It is one pretty sick initiation against heroes with no disables. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 22 2012 10:10 Shikyo wrote: If you're drafting or trying to balance a game, there's no other way to do it properly than being cynical. If you draft a bad hero thinking "oh he's good anyway" you'll give a handicap to yourself. If you draft a hero that's bad but that a teammate can play so well that the performance will be better than if you picked a better hero they can't play as well you're again being cynical. There's no "too cynical" when talking about game balance. You don't draft heroes based on who's "OP" and "UP". You draft based on their relative strengths and weaknesses in the specific scenarios and aspects relevant to the draft. You can choose to ignore then overall "OP-ness" or "UP-ness" of a hero while still remaining cognizant of their strengths and weaknesses, and still avoid the pitfalls because you'll still ban those flexible heroes (that are not necessarily OP), and be careful about selecting the limited ones (that are not necessarily UP) as they may not fit your comp. It may also lead you to see certain good fits for your team that you may not have seen otherwise (as a particular draft may make one of the glaring weaknesses of a given hero irrelevant). | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
On September 22 2012 10:43 PrinceXizor wrote: I agree, although not completely as I believe Dota and BW are quite different as we assume one player is locked into one race in BW due to the amount of time required to master one. While in Dota we expect teams to be open to playing everything viable.Dota is balanced. same way BW is balanced. it's balanced because we say it is and we work at making it balanced through improving play. THis isn't Lol/SC2 where if you whine enough you can get the game changed for you so you don't HAVE to play better. It is what it is, and you just adapt your skillset around it. There are players who are better meepos than others, there are protosses that are better with arbiters than others, there and zergs with better mutalisk control and dark seers with better vacuums. there is TOO much in dota to be good at to be the best at everything, so you specialize, just like BW. So what's the ultimate point of balance? It's to ensure that the best team/player wins. And in Dota, you can have heroes which are completely broken and that will still happen. So balance is more about making the game interesting rather than fair, unless it's regarding the 'meta' aspects such as first-pick and which side you play on. (which statistically speaking is incredibly balanced) | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 22 2012 08:18 Itsmedudeman wrote: When have I whined? Lmfao Apparently pointing out weaknesses and faults to a hero is whining. Apparently you can't work on being better while accepting the truth that not all heroes aren't equal. Today I learned Then you are fortunately a psychologically strong-willed player who can play with a cool head in the face of balance issues. Not every player is that cool-headed. Some players do get worked up over a hero being imbalanced (because an "OP" hero gets them ragey, because they use "oh X hero is OP/UP" as an excuse when they lose games, etc.) which can impede either their ability to play well or their ability to learn the game. Choosing not to acknowledge that imbalance can be a good psychological tool to help them learn/get better. Hell, it's arguable that EVERY player plays these psychological blame games even subconciously, even if they are outwardly calm about it, which is why even for someone of your disposition might improve more by telling himself that every hero is balanced. | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10666 Posts
T_T | ||
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Payson
United States394 Posts
Only watched the finals of the International 2, so that was my first real experience of watching a MOBA game in action. Which character should I start with? | ||
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rob.au
1087 Posts
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
On September 22 2012 11:33 Payson wrote: Just got my DotA key today! Steam sent me an email saying I was invited to participate, downloading now ^^ Only watched the finals of the International 2, so that was my first real experience of watching a MOBA game in action. Which character should I start with? easy heroes include tree and skeleton king and ogre magi and sven but really just pick whatever hero looks fun | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 22 2012 11:33 Payson wrote: Just got my DotA key today! Steam sent me an email saying I was invited to participate, downloading now ^^ Only watched the finals of the International 2, so that was my first real experience of watching a MOBA game in action. Which character should I start with? Start with lich, very basic character can be played solo mid, or sideline in pubs. If you don't like being supportive move to solo mid lich, then if you want to go into the following categories of play try the following heroes in order; Mid: Lich QOP Templar assassin Rubick Invoker Support Lich Vengeful Spirit Venomancer Earthshaker Shadow Shaman Crystal Maiden Leshrac Carry: Mirana Chaos Knight Anti-Mage Morphling Lone Druid If you like to support but also like farm: Sand King Enigma Enchantress Chen If you are one of the brave few who like offlaning, you don't get much practice in pubs until a high enough skill level, but become familiar with: Clinkz Bounty Hunter Dark Seer Beastmaster Tidehunter Windrunner Puck EDIT: i picked the heroes in the order because it helps you get used tot he lane with strong heroes that have increasing levels of complexity and difficulty in terms of fulfilling their role. offlane is difficult because while tidehunter is much simpler to play past a certain point (and in duo lanes) than any of the others listed in offlane category his laning phase in true 1v2(3) situations takes a lot of getting used to and patience so he's listed further down. Some characters aren't listed at all no tbecause they aren't viable or easy, but because often they require coordination with a team (wisp furion naga ect) which is hard to get in pubs, or because they are niche characters that while very fun to play aren't good for getting a feel of playing a lane or role (silencer carry, shadowfiend carry mid, tinker mid, storm spirit mid, pudge mid lina support) | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On September 22 2012 11:33 Payson wrote: Just got my DotA key today! Steam sent me an email saying I was invited to participate, downloading now ^^ Only watched the finals of the International 2, so that was my first real experience of watching a MOBA game in action. Which character should I start with? you saw the finals ? start with the hero that looked cooler. hf! | ||
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Payson
United States394 Posts
On September 22 2012 11:52 PrinceXizor wrote: Start with lich, very basic character can be played solo mid, or sideline in pubs. If you don't like being supportive move to solo mid lich, then if you want to go into the following categories of play try the following heroes in order; Mid: Lich QOP Templar assassin Rubick Invoker Support Lich Vengeful Spirit Venomancer Earthshaker Shadow Shaman Crystal Maiden Leshrac Carry: Mirana Chaos Knight Anti-Mage Morphling Lone Druid If you like to support but also like farm: Sand King Enigma Enchantress Chen If you are one of the brave few who like offlaning, you don't get much practice in pubs until a high enough skill level, but become familiar with: Clinkz Bounty Hunter Dark Seer Beastmaster Tidehunter Windrunner Puck Thanks! (And to everyone else that posted) Was reading up on Lich, I'll give him a go first! | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 22 2012 12:17 LAN-f34r wrote: For a new player I wouldn't go qop invoker venge ES morph sylla chen or puck out of those heroes. They either require certain knowledge about how well a fight will go (qop/puck, who despite good escape, are squishy), can screw their team up with bad spell usage (venge ES) or have mechanics difficult to think about for a new player (chen/druid with multiple units, and invoker). it's to ease you into the complexity, yeah QOP is difficult at high levels but in normal MMR pubs often a blink is ALL you need to go 0 deaths. and those characters are often listed near the end of the lists for a reason and offlane/jungle lists should be done after you play a lot of games. xD | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
And why did you even include the harder heroes even at the end of the list? He asked for heroes to start with. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 22 2012 10:32 teapoted wrote: Again, people don't understand the game balance. Heroes aren't made to be competitively viable. Anyone who thinks that heroes are supposed to be equally useful in all situations or in any situations are looking at it the wrong way. Also, people who would determine ones weakness or strengths without a large amount of data including after teams have adapted to them also, are very naive. There certainly is such a thing as being too cynical when it comes to balance, because in a game like dota it's very hard to even define balance. They are supposed to be different but viable. A hero being strictly better than another in the role means that they failed with balancing. Hero being better at one thing and worse at other means they succeeded. Current trends might mean that some heroes won't be played but they need to each be the best option in some specific situation. | ||
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