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On March 07 2010 17:34 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 16:05 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On March 07 2010 16:04 DoX.) wrote:On March 07 2010 16:03 thestool91 wrote:
seriously wtf i have never seen games like that where the terran wins. what? Ultra late game TvZ terran almost always has the advantage Yep. Basically if you survive the first few waves of ultralisks, the zerg just starves. Of course Flash is actually able to force that situation to occur. LOL guys, that's because Flash is one of the ONLY terrans that can actually push the game into the late game nowadays. Modern muta micro has destroyed a vast majority of good/mediocre/bad terran progamers before they even get to the late game. Refer to Kespa rankings for zerg dominance charts. and "surviving the first few waves of ultralisks" is nowhere as easy as you say... dark swarm + ultra-ling is generally how 99.9% of terrans die... so basically, it's hard. In summary: what proportion of tvz's get to the late game? who is the most common figure in those games? ... Flash? And we know that ZvF (not counting JvF) is pretty much like "ppp".
How exactly are zerg 'dominating' right now? I would like to see those stats because it seems to me zerg have been losing a huge number of TvZs this proleague season.
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Omg, Nal_rA vs NaDa would be so epic.
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On March 07 2010 23:13 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 17:34 Wings wrote:On March 07 2010 16:05 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On March 07 2010 16:04 DoX.) wrote:On March 07 2010 16:03 thestool91 wrote:
seriously wtf i have never seen games like that where the terran wins. what? Ultra late game TvZ terran almost always has the advantage Yep. Basically if you survive the first few waves of ultralisks, the zerg just starves. Of course Flash is actually able to force that situation to occur. LOL guys, that's because Flash is one of the ONLY terrans that can actually push the game into the late game nowadays. Modern muta micro has destroyed a vast majority of good/mediocre/bad terran progamers before they even get to the late game. Refer to Kespa rankings for zerg dominance charts. and "surviving the first few waves of ultralisks" is nowhere as easy as you say... dark swarm + ultra-ling is generally how 99.9% of terrans die... so basically, it's hard. In summary: what proportion of tvz's get to the late game? who is the most common figure in those games? ... Flash? And we know that ZvF (not counting JvF) is pretty much like "ppp". How exactly are zerg 'dominating' right now? I would like to see those stats because it seems to me zerg have been losing a huge number of TvZs this proleague season.
Here you go
TvZ: 47-25 (65.3%)
TvZ: 63-46 (57.8%)
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Zerg overall aren't doing too great against Terran. At least most of the top zergs aren't.
Kwanro: 2-8
Calm: 3-7
Zero: 7-3 (nice!)
Effort: 3-7
Shine: 3-7
Jaedong: 5-5
Don't make it sound like terran (even flash) is doing anything amazing or spectacular when they roll a zerg.
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On March 08 2010 03:08 On_Slaught wrote:
Zerg overall aren't doing too great against Terran. At least most of the top zergs aren't.
Kwanro: 2-8
Calm: 3-7
Zero: 7-3 (nice!)
Effort: 3-7
Shine: 3-7
Jaedong: 5-5
Don't make it sound like terran (even flash) is doing anything amazing or spectacular when they roll a zerg.
Can u remove flash's wins in those records and take another look? He is a ridiculous outlier that skews the percentages in Terran favor vs Z and P even though its only one person
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On March 08 2010 02:17 Ryoo wrote:
Omg, Nal_rA vs NaDa would be so epic.
there is no announcement of Nal_rA going back to KT
and Nal_rA did pwn him
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Kespa ratings are generally a good reflection of what the pro scene was like last season. I am weary when Flash fans try to use that to show that Flash is the only terran doing well right now, this is far from the truth. This is so far shaping up to be a terran season. In 3 or so months the Kespa rankings will more than likely show terrans on top.
That said, anyone who dismisses Flash's vZ as not spectacular is being an idiot. The Kespa rankings accurately portray the setting in which Flash dominated last season. Flash was the ONLY decent terran last season (and he pieced together a season worthy of a bonjwa). He triumphed in an awful time for terrans.
I was fairly disappointed with Flash v Roro, it didn't seem like Flash playing that game. He was uncharacteristically passive and sloppy with his vessels. His play versus Baby however was perfect, completely dismantled him.
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On March 08 2010 03:36 PiePie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2010 03:08 On_Slaught wrote:
Zerg overall aren't doing too great against Terran. At least most of the top zergs aren't.
Kwanro: 2-8
Calm: 3-7
Zero: 7-3 (nice!)
Effort: 3-7
Shine: 3-7
Jaedong: 5-5
Don't make it sound like terran (even flash) is doing anything amazing or spectacular when they roll a zerg. Can u remove flash's wins in those records and take another look? He is a ridiculous outlier that skews the percentages in Terran favor vs Z and P even though its only one person
Kwanro 6-4
calm 4-7
zero 8-2
effort 3-7
shine 3-7
Jaedong 8-2
jaedong is still holding his zvt
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So, which games are recommended?
From a quick look at the thread, it seems game #3 was highly entertaining.
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On March 08 2010 03:08 On_Slaught wrote:
Zerg overall aren't doing too great against Terran. At least most of the top zergs aren't.
Kwanro: 2-8
Calm: 3-7
Zero: 7-3 (nice!)
Effort: 3-7
Shine: 3-7
Jaedong: 5-5
Don't make it sound like terran (even flash) is doing anything amazing or spectacular when they roll a zerg.
please don't list kwanro and especially shine as "top zergs"
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Kwanro is a top zerg, like it or not.
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On March 08 2010 09:14 Gann1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2010 03:08 On_Slaught wrote:
Zerg overall aren't doing too great against Terran. At least most of the top zergs aren't.
Kwanro: 2-8
Calm: 3-7
Zero: 7-3 (nice!)
Effort: 3-7
Shine: 3-7
Jaedong: 5-5
Don't make it sound like terran (even flash) is doing anything amazing or spectacular when they roll a zerg. please don't list kwanro and especially shine as "top zergs"
Those are the top 6 zergs on the kespa ranking.
Nice try though.
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I didn't see Flash vs Roro as passive or sloppy at all. Flash's play merely reflected a new TvZ lategame trend that he has been pushing (fantasy's been doing something similar too). He masses up tanks starting when he gets his third gas, and uses his vessels as the front line of defense, his tanks as the last line of defense, and his M&M as offense or defense wherever necessary. He suicides his vessels in order to snipe ultras and defilers (scourges cost gas too, so that's tying up ALL of zerg's gas and offensive potential), all while building up tanks and expanding. Once the tank line reaches a zerg expo, there's no way the zerg can keep the expo alive, so Flash just crawls across the map unstoppably until the Zerg starves, and the suicide vessels enable him to do it.
Sure, it would be better if the vessels stayed alive, but against a competent Zerg you know that most of them will bite the dust. The whole point is that by sacrificing your vessels, you prevent dark swarms from getting anywhere near your mining bases until you have a bajillion upgraded tanks. Judge the strategy on whether or not it works (hint: it does), but don't think it's out of sloppiness or carelessness that those vessels are dying. It's for a pretty important purpose.
Actually, this strategy reminds me of Flash's turtle TvP method (the one people complain about so much) --- you don't really *attack*, you just keep the tanks crawling forward until the enemy's bases become your bases, and then they have no choice but to keep attacking you with all they've got, and as long as you can weather the storm you will eventually win. See Flash vs Movie from the OSL finals. The only thing different is that this strategy only works in TvZ as long as defilers don't get anywhere near you, which is where the commando vessels come in.
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On March 08 2010 11:52 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2010 09:14 Gann1 wrote:On March 08 2010 03:08 On_Slaught wrote:
Zerg overall aren't doing too great against Terran. At least most of the top zergs aren't.
Kwanro: 2-8
Calm: 3-7
Zero: 7-3 (nice!)
Effort: 3-7
Shine: 3-7
Jaedong: 5-5
Don't make it sound like terran (even flash) is doing anything amazing or spectacular when they roll a zerg. please don't list kwanro and especially shine as "top zergs" Those are the top 6 zergs on the kespa ranking. Nice try though.
KesPA ranking is bad though.
it should be:
Jaedong
(a lot of empty space here)
Calm, Kwanro, Effort, Zero (all inconsistent so sometimes some are much better than others)
Luxury, Shine, Yarnc, type-b, Hogil, by.hero, etc. (the "mediocre" Zergs who occasionally win stuff)
Luxury and Kwanro used to be reversed, but Kwanro's all-ins win him a lot more games than Shine's, and Luxury has fallen off the "good but not great" pedestal.
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No Recommended games in OP!
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For those seeking recommendations, here are some of my own:
+ Show Spoiler +Game 1: Nada. Watch, 'nuff said.
Game 2: Textbook PvT pushbreaking. Quite a dominating performance by the winner overall. Recommended.
Game 3: Quite an intense PvZ with quite a few multitasking fails by the loser. Also, Guardians and Devourers. Quite an entertaining match, would recommend.
Game 4: An interesting game, watch for a decent ZvP I suppose.
Game 5: Personally, I felt it was a little dragged out. Some would describe it as sloppy, but nonetheless it was a great effort from the loser who played admirably well. A little hesitant to recommend this.
Game 6: TvT masterclass from the winner. Watch it if you're interested in the subtleties of mech on matchpoint. Amazing strategic sense from winner. Warning: pretty one-sided.
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Alright, thanks a bunch sir!
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On March 08 2010 03:47 anch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2010 03:36 PiePie wrote:On March 08 2010 03:08 On_Slaught wrote:
Zerg overall aren't doing too great against Terran. At least most of the top zergs aren't.
Kwanro: 2-8
Calm: 3-7
Zero: 7-3 (nice!)
Effort: 3-7
Shine: 3-7
Jaedong: 5-5
Don't make it sound like terran (even flash) is doing anything amazing or spectacular when they roll a zerg. Can u remove flash's wins in those records and take another look? He is a ridiculous outlier that skews the percentages in Terran favor vs Z and P even though its only one person Kwanro 6-4calm 4-7 zero 8-2 effort 3-7 shine 3-7 Jaedong 8-2jaedong is still holding his zvt
K i didn't mean to start that much discussion, but if those stats are real, that's ridiculous that Kwanro & JD's records change so much just because of the Flash factor... insane.
It seems as if the maps this time around are generally terran favored, so I guess what I've said before isn't as valid as I once thought. However, I still stand by the idea that, I believe that the real reason people think late-game terran is hard to beat is actually because they've just seen a ton of Flash's late games, and that unconsciously colors their judgement because he is nigh impossible to beat, especially in the late game.
And, by the way, can we have a round of applause for Flash, he's broken ELO 2400... for the SECOND time!!! freaking unbelievable...
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On March 08 2010 15:06 POWEROUTAGE wrote:
For those seeking recommendations, here are some of my own: (...)
Thanks!
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EPT
