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MURICA15980 Posts
Alright, I'm going to a LAN tournament soon and I don't want to be cheesed by a totally sucky player. Even though it's a double elim with bo3 in every match, I still don't want to cheesed by a newbie. So I want some help with some 9pool builds and such so it's less risky versus less skilled players.
The reason I ask is because I know ilnp did very well in WDT (hint hint, where are you, son? ) with 9pool builds as they are safe, and if you are more skilled player than your opponent, you can still win the game even if it wasn't the best move.
So enough background, I want to know when and why I would do a 9pool. What advantages does it give me? What do I expect the other player to do, and what is his best move? If there is more than 1 really good move, what should I do to be ready for either and "play it safe" or whatever?
I don't want to know just builds as it doesn't make me a better player in the long run. I want a better understanding of the game, and I just found out recently that I know nothing about 9pooling except for early lurker versus terran. I am asking for opinions of people with relatively good experience who know how the game works and know the answers to the questions, although I won't mind the average joe either as it'll help with the discussion.
Versus all races would be best, but if you know more about one match-up for the 9pool, that's fine. And for a zvz 9pool... I just want to know WHY I would want to do that because a zerg who does 12pool + defensive sunk always blocks my 9pool rush and has a bigger economy.
Thanks for all the help as I'm asking for a rather long explination (understanding of the game usually takes more lines than just build orders).
Oh yeah, I wouldn't mind any pool builds before hatch either, like a 12 pool and why I would do that over a 9pool or a 12hatch. etc etc.
Last note: This shouldn't always apply to LT as this lan will use any WGTour map, that why understanding matters to me a lot.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
I'd also like to know, and I'd like to add the question "Why NOT use a 9pool in (insert situation)."
Thanks
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well, i know jack shit, but i will tell you what even i seem to have a handle on, to get things started anyways.
ZVP: a 9pool build (don't know what is best, a zerg player could tell you, what i would do ignorantly and blindly is 9pool 9gas 8lord) will kill almost any kind of unseasoned weak or lazy toss because they will only have 1 zeal when you reach their ramp which you can run past and then annoy the fuck out of them (keep making lings and rally) and maybe get their pylon or gate if not probes, just micro well and don't waste lings unfavorably. if they are at 9 and they 9/10 gate very skillfully and near their choke then it's possible they have more than 1 zeal to block but that's about it, even then the players you speak of shouldn't. they would have to scout you and know to put a zeal with 2 probes positioned perfectly and even then you have a fair chance to get in. so you keep making lings and get ling speed asap, you scout with a drone so you know where he is (lord already checked one spot). just keep making lings, and then hatches with remaining minerals. if he manages to screw up your rush you still are probably fine unless you completely wasted everything in which case a zeal attack is going to kill you. if you think you're screwing him enough but aren't going to kill him with more lings you might try sneaking in some more drones and getting lair asap, as mutas will gg him, and then of course go right back into lings. you have to understand if the toss is actually hurt or not, though, of cou rse..
as for zvz if you 9 pool, assuming they aren't great players, you really have a good chance against any zerg build if you 9 pool speedlings. players below your skill level shoudl very will just die to your lings. you will have them on the defensive and will still be able to run in and take out a couple drones at no losses. if you do, that's gg. and they will probably get overconfident too easily and you, knowing to keep making lings anyways, will be able to take out his only sunken once you hvae speedlings and then it's also gg. another option you may find is building a sunken on his creep away from his sunken and using your ling micro to win. and you'll probably get free wins from zerg trying to expo zvz too. even if you both scout eachother first, only the best players will really play against a known 9pool properly, so ...
as for vs terran, a terran trying to cheese you will be caught with his pants down. and a lazy/inexperienced terran will be owned by speedlings just running in and microing his few marines before he has enough to do anything (he will not have the knowledge or skill to use his scvs adequately to hold ramp vs 9 pool). and like you said, scaring a player like this with early lings probably gives you a free kill on them with lurkers. just make sure you kill his marines and avoid his scvs for the most part, except free kills of mining/fleeing scvs when no marines are shooting you (same concept when rushing with lings against any race or any rush against anyone really).
that's about all i know, not very specific, but maybe i'll incite the rest out of the real zerg players or at least the real bw players. sorry if u already knew everything i said but i figured someone had to say it anyways.
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MURICA15980 Posts
Yeah, not much new for me but at least it reinforced what I was thinking.
What I was looking for though was like what is the situation of the game if my harass doesn't work? How many probes need to die for it to be "worth it" etc. Where to do I go after the 9pool? Because usually I go improvising, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But you are 100% correct in the fact that usually if I'm better, I'll win. The only reason I'm asking and looking for help is because I'm not confident with it. If I do a hatch first build that I've been using forever (in zvt for example) then I feel more confident. I'm looking for an understanding of early pool zerg, even if it isn't "good". Knowing how to work off small econs is always a good thing to know.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Hmm.
Using the 9pool is a great way to control the way the game will play out.
If you see the other player turtling up, It's probably safe to power like mad and tech to whatever you desire. You know he won't attack you soon. If you think you can punch through, by all means send wave after wave of lings at him.
If he seems to just try to win with basic units, I'd throw lings at him while building tech slower, mostly because he won't be able to tech properly with so many lings around.
Just my thought, inaccurate as they may be!
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9 pool ZvZ is most risky because it is so easily countered by 12 pool and how well you can make use of it in other situations depends on your ability, luck, opponents ability, etc.
9 pool ZvT is sort of safe and can be useful in starting the game VERY safely from 12v3 on LT. But the timing after the initial lings is tricky and you will almost never actually benefit from the opening vs a good player(ie, early trick win or even able to heavily swing the game in your favor with harass).
ZvP, 9 pool is something of a mind state. Like in ZvT it usually won't benefit you in that your harass won't do much to a high level player, but it allows you to sort of make the game play out early-game the same every time. In that your opponent will need to have their hold-position zealots blocking the ramp before they can really do anything. Then all you have to do is watch for their next move. A coy Zerg can be devastating with this every time(See little tech and emphasis on Zealots, start sunkens. See Stargate, get den/spore).
The most important thing to remember when using a 9 pool(And this goes for everything Z related really) is to learn how to feel the pressure/flow of the game and know when to power/tech/harass/expand. Generally you have enough money if you do a 9 pool+no speedling build to make a hatch right after the lings hatch... If you did a 9 pool in anticipation for close locations in ZvT(like 12v3 LT) then you can feel free to make the hatch before the lings so it will be built faster because your first 6 lings probably have no chance of trading well for you(ie, opponent being close or doing 1 rax), which means slightly faster larvae and the ability to make a sunken faster.
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Ok build for 9 pool = 9/9 pool, scout with drone, 8/9 drone, 9/9 extractor trick, 10/9 lord. 6 lings when pool is done.
9 pool ZvZ is something you can do, a 12 pool + sunk user will have eco loss too (a sunken = 175 minerals). Just keep pumping drones afterwards and proceed with normal zvz.
9 pool ZvT is only useful in close spots (like 12/3 in LT). If you're far away, it's a waste because he'll have it scouted by the time your lings get to his base and he'll have 2 rine + 4 scv guarding his choke.
If you're really far away, you can't get cheesed. If someone is foolish enough to do a cheese rush anyway, you'll have your drones to fend off the first marine, and by the time his 2nd arrives, you'll have ling + sunk morphing. Don't get speed for lings in ZvT 9 pool because it will severely delay your 2nd hatch.
Now, if you attack with your lings in close spots, and you manage to kill his first rines, keep building lings so you can keep killing his rines and scv's. Rally them to his base (you should have 2nd hatch already now, and 3rd soon morphing). If he somehow survives it with excellent micro, just power drones, and get muta/lurker whatever you desire.
ZvP 9 pool: build = 9/9 pool, send drone for scout, 8/9 drone, 9/9 lord, 9/9 gas, 8/9 drone, get drone on gas, build 6 lings, remove drones from gas when you have 100 gas. Don't bother 9 pooling the protoss if he's far away. If you're really scared of cheese, you can do 12 pool vs protoss too, and get hatch in main afterwards if you're really scared.
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twisted i dont think u answerd his questions. he wants to know what he gains/ loses by doing those builds. not just follow instructions. so why is 9pool, scouting drone, 9lord, 9 gas the way to go vs toss? why is 9pooling in far spots so hopeless? i seen many players that are pretty good lose to these things you say are hopeless, so maybe u are very good? better than top WSL? i dont know who u are so sorry. so sorry.
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If you want to 9 pool because you are afraid of cheesing, then you can be pretty safe with 12 pool too, in all match ups. I find 9 pool very risky because if you dont do any damage you are far behind. Anyway i think everything is a matter of personal style. Try many bo's and keep the one thats better for you.
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Last week I decided to try to learn the answers to those same questions. So, I played 100 games - all 9 pool. I can say one thing for sure: It will be at least 400 more games before I can answer
I see 2 strong benefits. You can usually safe expand with 9 pool, and you put the fear into your opponent early.
The weakness is you need very good unit control, and you need a lot of experience to be able to do determine when to drone and when to make war units. Each is the most troublesome aspect of playing zerg in general, and they are amplified when 9 pooling.
Overall, it is very fun to play because you are always on the razor's edge of extermination. And that is the biggest reason you should use 9-pool.
Here is a short guide by Testie about 9 pool ZvP. I haven't really played this style much. http://amat.sux2bme.com/Testie9pool.txt
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heh 9 pool works really well zvt.. if you wanna learn real good 9 pool strats vs t watch Hiya[3.33] his macro is awsom he usually does a build like 9/9 ol, pool, one drone, build hatch, by the time pool is finished you should have close to 150 min and 3 larva, 6-ling em while you expo :D gl hf
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Netherlands2766 Posts
I just wanna say i think 9 pool is irratating when being a toss. It forces u to make extra zeal before tech and rush is way slower because u cant really leave ur base with first 3 ..
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On December 20 2003 22:57 stimey d okgm fish wrote:
twisted i dont think u answerd his questions. he wants to know what he gains/ loses by doing those builds. not just follow instructions. so why is 9pool, scouting drone, 9lord, 9 gas the way to go vs toss? why is 9pooling in far spots so hopeless? i seen many players that are pretty good lose to these things you say are hopeless, so maybe u are very good? better than top WSL? i dont know who u are so sorry. so sorry.
Basically why you would do 9 pool is because you want to be safe from cheesing. That's pretty obvious. I was just giving him the basics of 9 pool. When you do it is in close spots, when you don't do it is if you're far away. Why you do it, is because you wanna kill him, or you wanna be safe from cheese.
I thought these things were kinda obvious, so I didn't type those out. If you want any indication of my skill, season 3 WSL I ended with 35-15 on #22 or so, beating some good players (won't name them, cuz that might sound arrogant), season 4 WSL I had something like 40-13, don't really remember..
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Netherlands2766 Posts
On December 20 2003 22:57 stimey d okgm fish wrote:
twisted i dont think u answerd his questions. he wants to know what he gains/ loses by doing those builds. not just follow instructions. so why is 9pool, scouting drone, 9lord, 9 gas the way to go vs toss? why is 9pooling in far spots so hopeless? i seen many players that are pretty good lose to these things you say are hopeless, so maybe u are very good? better than top WSL? i dont know who u are so sorry. so sorry.
I think u might wanna value his zerg opninion more than a lot of others that post here  . A Whole lot. No offence to the others, just regarding his skill.
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sorry it's just i've seen reps of better players and they do very different builds than he's mentioning so i'm wondering why he choose that particular build (not the 9 pool part, duhrr), which he still not explain. maybe he dont understand, english not his language?
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MURICA15980 Posts
Thanks for all the feedback.
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On December 21 2003 20:26 stimey d okgm fish wrote:
sorry it's just i've seen reps of better players and they do very different builds than he's mentioning so i'm wondering why he choose that particular build (not the 9 pool part, duhrr), which he still not explain. maybe he dont understand, english not his language?
I like my own builds, I don't copy replays 
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MURICA15980 Posts
I've tried 9pool a few times in ZvT and it seems like the other player don't know how to play versus it if I don't go fast lurkers with 1 base because they can't copy replays. I think I'm liking this. 
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Klogon your going to the LAN in Portland right? Your friend Cory (I knew him as TheLast[Day] online) told me about it. Don't you go to beaverton high school?
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EPT
