|
|
|
SS's would be very nice.
I still don't know how to FE.
... ... -_-;;
|
this is way too specific lol
you should try to break it down into a way that one can actually follow, rather than expecting people to memorise 50 different points at which they should build things.
ex)
you fast expand and tech quickly stargate and templars. add gas to your natural very early as well then begin corsair pump. more corsairs if your opponent opens muta, less if den. fly around killing things with your sairs and get a dt out and try to kill things with that
|
51715 Posts
I'd have to agree with SMB there.
Generalise it more so it can be varied for various situations, maps, players etc.
|
Taiche
France1963 Posts
On November 05 2007 19:10 SuperJongMan wrote:
SS's would be very nice.
I still don't know how to FE.
... ... -_-;;
Yeah, same here :D I still have issues when it comes to pylon/forge placement at nat...
|
this thread would be 1000x better with just a link to the mentioned replay
|
Sorry but these kind of bo's are just stupid to try to memorise. It helps nobody. It's much better to go something in the lines of:
Try to get as few cannons at your expand as possible, but enough to fight it's forces, that's why keeping the probe alive is essential. Be 100% sure that Bisu doesn't have this memorized, but instead is playing by what his probe sees.
Anyway, the key elements to this strat are getting the second gas earlier than usual, soon after CyberCore, keeping scouting alive, see how many drones he's getting, how many expos. This is crucial, since you'll have an idea of what his army will look like in a few minutes. That way you can't be surprised by mass lings or fast hydra or such. You see no lair tech? Search for expos and worry about hydra/lings. You see a faster lair that you're wishing? Maybe one cannon in the main mineral line won't hurt, and so on.
What if he 9pools? What if he doesn't pool at all and just expos all over the place? Are you still going to be adding cannons and getting just one zealot and one goon? Bisu has a strong feel about the game flow, and he can get minimalistic defenses in order to get his tech up as fast as possible. This can (and most of the time will) prove fatal to someone who just goes by the BO without reacting properly to his opponent.
|
This build was used against 12 hatch 11 pool -> 3 hatch before gas with minimal lings? And on what map? Even if you don't generalize the build, at least state the context it was used in.
|
8751 Posts
The reason why it's so vague is because of the reasons CubEdIn just listed. It's best described as following up a FE with corsair/dt as your first major investment. This is opposed to a fast +1 and speed zealot attack, to corsair/reaver, to 6+ gates zealot/goon/temp/obs power, and to goon/reaver. As odd a combo as corsair/dt is compared to the power of those alternatives, Bisu has demonstrated that it works best against the most common and most powerful zerg builds.
|
United States44453 Posts
How is it not 13 nexus? I can always 13 nex without cutting probes.
|
if you scout then its 14 
|
On November 05 2007 20:25 Taiche wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2007 19:10 SuperJongMan wrote:
SS's would be very nice.
I still don't know how to FE.
... ... -_-;; Yeah, same here :D I still have issues when it comes to pylon/forge placement at nat...
I try to block the shortest path to my main so that people can't run past and attack my probes. I make the forge a bit closer to the outer side of the build so that I can fit a cannon behind it and the pylon. Basically watch how Bisu does it - his cannon is always contained so that it's harder to attack from all sides.
To the OP, as others have said, that was just one game on one map. This build is obviously very weak against any kind of fast pool or small map or close potion map. Even a map like LT makes any Nexus-first FE hard because many of the nats have wide entrances and if you have close positions with a skilled Zerg you could lose quickly. Although, it is interesting to write down the absolute timings of this one variation.
I'd also include supply meter, so that it's not just a number like 8 pylon, but eventually like 51/58 pylon or whatnot. This way you can see the logic between 2 pylons being made in a row, for example. Also maybe a timer? Like, the game time at which it occurs. But that's for really detailed stuff.
|
On November 05 2007 23:36 sperY wrote:if you scout then its 14
I'm with kwark on this one. Even when I scout after 8 pylon, I can obtain 400 minerals before reaching 14 population. Perhaps it depends on how well you mine (splits, closest mineral patches) or on how many mineral patches you start with (most maps these days have 9-10 as opposed to 8).
EDIT: Actually, after considering the chronology of 8 mineral patch maps having been obsolete for a long time, I can't be sure...
Perhaps you build at 14 just for timing's sake or that extra second for mining time with all your probes?
|
Share the replay
|
Watching Bisu vs. Savior I can tell you he adds more gateways a lot quicker. Especially the first game. Because while he's DT sneaking and killing ovies hes getting zealot/ht ready to attack.
|
Ty very much for this information. I kind of had a general idea of the Bisu build before this, but never something set down in stone. Also, if its not too much to ask. Could you add a small section on unit controlling/harassment? I found this is one of my greatest problems PvZ.
And was this rep a FPVOD? Because an FPVOD of Bisu is definetily a must-have (I was only wondering because how else would you get the exact numbers)
|
On November 06 2007 04:21 xBTx wrote:
And was this rep a FPVOD? Because an FPVOD of Bisu is definetily a must-have (I was only wondering because how else would you get the exact numbers)
It was just a normal replay.
Also basically the cliff notes for Bisu's build is as follows:
14 nexus
KEEP YOUR SCOUTING PROBE ALIVE.
Take your natural gas relatively fast, basically a little after cyber is warping.
Stargate asap, citadel asap.
2nd gate before you start temp archives.
Temp archives asap.
Constant sairs.
Obviously you keep the scouting probe alive to know if hes linging, teching expoing etc. If you don't keep him alive, it's going to be a lot harder to pull this off, as it requires to skimp on cannons initially.
|
As previously stated this BO is the response to a Zerg going 12 hatch. It's important to note that should the Zerg decide to go 9 pool instead, the Protoss should make a forge before he makes a nexus. Getting this info is one reason why Bisu likes to scout so early. If he sees hatch first then he goes nexus first. If he sees pool first then he goes forge first. This fork in the BO could be the difference between a standard PvZ game...and probe genocide. 
|
I read that most progamers memorize builds into almost 100 supply, so I think it is great that he wrote down the build like this. Of course you should have an understanding of what to do in case your build gets messed up, or you have to adjust your build based on your opponent's build.
|
Progamers memorize builds up to 100? I find that hard to believe with all the variables that can pop up in a game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
Bisu made famous that involves an early stargate and templar archives.
sAviOr replay (courtesy of Taiche and his wonderful thread) in which 
![[image loading]](http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/2760/scscrnshot110607025035rc0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/3770/scscrnshot110607030603bx9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/1386/scscrnshot110607030743xd4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/8685/scscrnshot110607030842hm9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/338/scscrnshot110607030903qs1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/5449/scscrnshot110607030950oh3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/2117/scscrnshot110607031135er0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/320/scscrnshot110607031259cg7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/5973/scscrnshot110607031356rz4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/9743/scscrnshot110607031414xm6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/954/scscrnshot110607031438fz5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/2714/scscrnshot110607031459le4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3633/scscrnshot110607031515it1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1480/scscrnshot110607031535hr9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/6233/scscrnshot110607031616vy4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/740/scscrnshot110607031639nh1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9763/scscrnshot110607031704mj9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/875/scscrnshot110607031740hf4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/7816/scscrnshot110607031802pm7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/1892/scscrnshot110607031815mi2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5038/scscrnshot110607031829lp1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6953/scscrnshot110607031907mg5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/958/scscrnshot110607032250od9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/5611/scscrnshot110607031949fl5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/5307/scscrnshot110607032323wg5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/9220/scscrnshot110607032342rt0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/2783/scscrnshot110607032402lq7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/1155/scscrnshot110607032614ki5.jpg)
