• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:35
CEST 04:35
KST 11:35
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists11[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy21
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers11Maestros of the Game 2 announced32026 GSL Tour plans announced10Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail0MaNa leaves Team Liquid19
StarCraft 2
General
2026 GSL Tour plans announced Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool MaNa leaves Team Liquid Maestros of the Game 2 announced
Tourneys
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) SEL Doubles (SC Evo Bimonthly) $5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power
Brood War
General
Pros React To: Tulbo in Ro.16 Group A Data needed BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion ASL21 General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro16 Group B [ASL21] Ro16 Group A [ASL21] Ro24 Group F
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Reappraising The Situation T…
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1657 users

Rumors circulating in Korean E-Sports scene - Page 19

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 17 18 19 20 21 27 Next All
rasers
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden691 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-13 04:43:28
October 13 2010 04:39 GMT
#361
yeah yeah sad kids. not like they know what they chose?
if they want 2 have a family( with 16-20 :D) or go 2 college or whatsoever they can do it.
but if they under a contract yes they have to train its with every other professional sport. u have 2 train otherwise ur out end of the story.
and 8-10 hours is not even much... its a "normal" work day like some office job or whatsoever but instead u play starcraft
also after 5789349858934589435 interviews u will become a robot in this interviews because 99% u have 2 answer the same stuff over and over again.

but yeah. GSL is awesome . bring them back to the good old eat ramen only be scared to not get enough money 2 make a living WOHO.
Varbind
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada113 Posts
October 13 2010 04:48 GMT
#362
Uh, rasers, who said anything about how much they have to train? Hmmmm one person, you. My point, and the post I quoted is simply about how controlling Kespa is, and that it really is not necessary. People train just as hard for the GSL, so I really fail to see your point.
aru
Profile Joined April 2010
183 Posts
October 13 2010 04:48 GMT
#363
On October 13 2010 13:34 Varbind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2010 02:29 leakingpear wrote:
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.

The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.

Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.



Wow, this was a fantastic post, thank you! So often people do not consider what it must be like to be one of these drones/progammers underneath Kespa. It has always struck me how robotic they are especially in interviews. They simply have no character/uniqueness. The difference is so notable in the GSL, they have the ability to act normally and are far more animated and actually act like the incredibly young people they actually are. Honestly under Kespa the progammers always reminded me of the athletes from Russia at the olympics.....afraid to say the wrong thing.


Yeah, damn Kespa and their robots:

On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. I think what we need to do is clarify once and for all what BW fans mean by ESPORTS. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.

ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +
Even when you're terrible


ESPORTS is growing up to be just like your hero.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]


ESPORTS is a shitty TV drama being made about your lifestyle.
+ Show Spoiler +


ESPORTS is fangirls praying for you in the audience.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


ESPORTS is celebrating your victory after the big game.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]


ESPORTS is having major pimp cred when you win.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]


ESPORTS is being sexy for your fans.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


ESPORTS is being a rock star.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Is it going to supplant BW as the ESPORT? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.

Edit: Added more.

Varbind
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada113 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-13 04:55:08
October 13 2010 04:52 GMT
#364
Aru, I also fail to see your point. Esports is successful therefore all the actions of Kespa are justified? I am just guessing, but I hope your thinking isnt that simple......

Oh, and by the way if this is some kind of attack on how long I have been a fan of sc, I started as a fan of agent911, and grrr, so if that was your goal I think you fail.
zenMaster
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada761 Posts
October 13 2010 04:54 GMT
#365
On October 13 2010 13:52 Varbind wrote:
Aru, I also fail to see your point. Esports is successfull therefore all the actions of Kespa are justified? I am just guessing, but I hope your thinking isnt that simple......

When i get to watch pro BW then Kespa is justified. Throw everything out the window because they are providing me with my favorite entertainment.
Varbind
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada113 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-13 05:00:50
October 13 2010 04:57 GMT
#366
So you blame everything on Blizzard for the perceived troubles of pro BW? Really, because no one here has any idea as to the details of the negotiations between the interested parties. People like to pretend that they do, but it is mostly bs.

I do not blame either party as I simply do not have enough information. You should consider why you seem to give Kespa a free pass as to the troubles bw is having right now. Myself, I highly doubt they are blame free.

EDIT:

I shoudl probably clarify, what I meant is Kespa's actions should be questioned along with Blizzard, no one deserves a free pass in this situation
aru
Profile Joined April 2010
183 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-13 05:00:33
October 13 2010 04:59 GMT
#367
On October 13 2010 13:52 Varbind wrote:
Aru, I also fail to see your point. Esports is successful therefore all the actions of Kespa are justified? I am just guessing, but I hope your thinking isnt that simple......

Oh, and by the way if this is some kind of attack on how long I have been a fan of sc, I started as a fan of agent911, and grrr, so if that was your goal I think you fail.


I was lazy and copied the entire post that someone else posted for you, but I thought it was fairly obvious I was attacking your statement claiming that Kespa somehow forces their players to be drones. If you had actually took the time to look at some of the pictures, you would certainly see these Kespa "drones" not being very drone-like.
supernovamaniac
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States3047 Posts
October 13 2010 05:00 GMT
#368
Interrupting discussion to inform this:

'SHINHAN BANK Pro League will be finally opened on this Sat. (Oct. 16). Detailed things including match-ups will be unveiled on tomorrow. ^^' -KeSPA's Twitter
ppp
henjebenje
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia73 Posts
October 13 2010 05:02 GMT
#369
this is such a sad day and time for BW!
The Sun & the Moon
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-13 05:08:16
October 13 2010 05:03 GMT
#370
On October 13 2010 14:00 supernovamaniac wrote:
Interrupting discussion to inform this:

'SHINHAN BANK Pro League will be finally opened on this Sat. (Oct. 16). Detailed things including match-ups will be unveiled on tomorrow. ^^' -KeSPA's Twitter

YES! Reading this thread is depressing for a BW fan, I had almost given up on any decent resolution. Good news at last.
Varbind
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada113 Posts
October 13 2010 05:03 GMT
#371
Pictures can capture a moment of happiness I am sure, but I am talking about how bad the interviews of pro bw players are. It is almost a joke about how little they say, have you ever watched any of the vids artosis puts out? He kids them all the time, I hope you are not going to give me the standard answer that I always get...... yet they always do. Exceptions are rare.

Super, that is great news, I pray it happens.
Nemesis
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2568 Posts
October 13 2010 05:05 GMT
#372
On October 13 2010 13:34 Varbind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2010 02:29 leakingpear wrote:
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.

The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.

Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.



Wow, this was a fantastic post, thank you! So often people do not consider what it must be like to be one of these drones/progammers underneath Kespa. It has always struck me how robotic they are especially in interviews. They simply have no character/uniqueness. The difference is so notable in the GSL, they have the ability to act normally and are far more animated and actually act like the incredibly young people they actually are. Honestly under Kespa the progammers always reminded me of the athletes from Russia at the olympics.....afraid to say the wrong thing.

Please stop with this misinformation. Read my previous post specificially concerning that. Also to add to my previous post, that is the kind of life they chose. They made a conscious decision on that. They are well aware that being a progamer requires tons of hours of practice to be successful. Also, consider that their culture is different from yours, so while you might see it as 'slavery' as very few people in the west can handle a lifestyle like that(hence, very few foreign progamers), it is something normal to them.
Lee Young Ho fighting! KT P are just CHINTOSSTIC.
Matoo-
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
Canada1397 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-13 05:21:20
October 13 2010 05:10 GMT
#373
Glad to see that PL might start and be aired on MBC.

The saddest thing is that players like Boxer, Nada, or July are basically committing delayed suicide. The insane level of the BW scene left them in the dust so they decided to switch to SC2 and have a chance to shine again. But because they are iconic players with a huge fanbase, their switch will hasten the death of BW and cause real top players like Flash/JD/etc to transition earlier. And once that happens they'll most probably get trounced again. But if they keep playing BW they have next to no chance to achieve anything either so they don't really have a choice. It's really, really sad.

That's why I really hope BW PL can last some more time. This way we can still enjoy raw skill in the form of the best players playing the best game (as of yet - SC2 might evolve into a great game too), and we also have the chance to see the old stars rise and shine again in SC2. Best of the two worlds imo.
Varbind
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada113 Posts
October 13 2010 05:11 GMT
#374
Nem, please point out where I talked about slavery, practise time or anything along that line. What misinformation are you referring to? Do you actually read my posts?

I will repeat it again, what I don't like is how controlled the players are. They have to give the answers to interviews that are expected of them. It makes them all seem the same, and it is hard for them to really differentiate themselves.

I really like in the GSL that players feel more free to speak their minds, and it is far more interesting to me.

Please, please refute my point, and not some preconception that you already have in your head.
gaiabulbanix
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Thailand76 Posts
October 13 2010 05:21 GMT
#375
I explained the situation to my dad today... Guess what he said?

"Money cannot buy everything".

So true... BW T.T...
Womwomwom
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
5930 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-13 05:25:37
October 13 2010 05:23 GMT
#376
The Starcraft 2 proscene will be as sterile as the current Brood War proscene the minute big money companies start sponsoring players. Enjoy it while it lasts.

On October 13 2010 14:10 Matoo- wrote:
Glad to see that PL might start and be aired on MBC.

The saddest thing is that players like Boxer, Nada, or July are basically committing delayed suicide. The insane level of the BW scene left them in the dust so they decided to switch to SC2 and have a chance to shine again. But because they are iconic players with a huge fanbase, their switch will hasten the death of BW and cause real top players like Flash/JD/etc to transition earlier. And once that happens they'll most probably get trounced again. It's really, really sad.

That's why I really hope BW PL can last some more time. This way we can still enjoy raw skill in the form of the best players playing the best game (as of yet - SC2 might evolve into a great game too), and we also have the chance to see the old stars rise and shine again in SC2. Best of the two worlds imo.


Yeah I have the same feeling about this news. Having Brood War played for one more season can end the scene on a high note and give some of the old legends like Nada, Boxer, and ChRh the one last chance to really shine in the large pile of SC2 "progamers"...
buhhy
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1113 Posts
October 13 2010 05:25 GMT
#377
On October 13 2010 14:11 Varbind wrote:
Nem, please point out where I talked about slavery, practise time or anything along that line. What misinformation are you referring to? Do you actually read my posts?

I will repeat it again, what I don't like is how controlled the players are. They have to give the answers to interviews that are expected of them. It makes them all seem the same, and it is hard for them to really differentiate themselves.

I really like in the GSL that players feel more free to speak their minds, and it is far more interesting to me.

Please, please refute my point, and not some preconception that you already have in your head.


Maybe sponsors don't want their players to say things that will embarass them? It's standard business practice to limit the PR people in things they say. Players in the GSL aren't bound to a specific contract, and thus only represent themselves. Remember the shitstorm started by Blizzard from some wrong words in an interview. No company wants to leave a bad impression on themselves.
aru
Profile Joined April 2010
183 Posts
October 13 2010 05:27 GMT
#378
Well, Varbind, admittedly I did not watch all of the GSL, but all the postgame interviews I saw were in general no different from what I saw in BW. I remember one guy who didn't even look at Artosis once when they were "talking" through the translator. And no, I did not watch any of Artosis' interview vids, but honestly, I don't expect them to be much different from the GSL ones due to the language barriers.

I attempted to find interviews from the GSL to get some sort of feel about it, but again, nothing struck me as if they're freely speaking their minds nor their answers being grossly different from the "typical" BW answers. For reference, this was one I read: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153164
Varbind
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada113 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-13 05:31:07
October 13 2010 05:29 GMT
#379
Wom,

You have a point, but I disagree. When you look at the NHL, NFL, Premier League, etc, etc there are controversial statements made on a daily basis. So yes, I feel that Kespa is exceptionally strict, and I am very happy to see this change for the good.

I love Broodward, I just hope that it can continue under a compromise. It will take both Blizzard and Kespa to make that happen. However all I see these days is people bitching about Blizzard. It takes two my friend.

Also, Nada and Boxer were in all but name retired already. They get another kick at the can, how can that be anything but a good thing? You act as if a second chance, however short, is worse then no chance at all? I cannot understand how that makes sense.
rasers
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden691 Posts
October 13 2010 05:33 GMT
#380
On October 13 2010 14:11 Varbind wrote:
Nem, please point out where I talked about slavery, practise time or anything along that line. What misinformation are you referring to? Do you actually read my posts?

I will repeat it again, what I don't like is how controlled the players are. They have to give the answers to interviews that are expected of them. It makes them all seem the same, and it is hard for them to really differentiate themselves.

I really like in the GSL that players feel more free to speak their minds, and it is far more interesting to me.

Please, please refute my point, and not some preconception that you already have in your head.

well u call them drones. drones are slaves. so yes.

and also u obvious dont know what it means if u are in a prof. team (i dont know either) but i know that u dont say anything u want because u represent the team and not you. u talk about the game mb 1 thing else and its done its always like that not only in pro SC in korea made by the evil kespa.

they get the same question over and over again. so what do u expect them 2 say?
Prev 1 17 18 19 20 21 27 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
GSL CK #3: Rogue vs SHIN
CranKy Ducklings92
EnkiAlexander 65
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft305
RuFF_SC2 195
ROOTCatZ 45
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 5950
Artosis 597
NaDa 19
Dota 2
monkeys_forever504
NeuroSwarm124
League of Legends
JimRising 506
Counter-Strike
taco 568
minikerr9
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox1274
Other Games
summit1g10921
tarik_tv5671
C9.Mang0732
shahzam440
WinterStarcraft261
Trikslyr165
Maynarde84
ViBE57
ZombieGrub13
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1047
Counter-Strike
PGL82
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta61
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift3713
• Lourlo549
• Stunt257
Other Games
• Scarra1064
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
7h 25m
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
8h 25m
CranKy Ducklings
21h 25m
Escore
1d 7h
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
1d 8h
OSC
1d 12h
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
2 days
IPSL
2 days
WolFix vs nOmaD
dxtr13 vs Razz
[ Show More ]
BSL
2 days
UltrA vs KwarK
Gosudark vs cavapoo
dxtr13 vs HBO
Doodle vs Razz
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
3 days
Ladder Legends
3 days
BSL
3 days
StRyKeR vs rasowy
Artosis vs Aether
JDConan vs OyAji
Hawk vs izu
IPSL
3 days
JDConan vs TBD
Aegong vs rasowy
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Bisu vs Ample
Jaedong vs Flash
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Barracks vs Leta
Royal vs Light
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-04-14
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W3
Escore Tournament S2: W4
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.