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I realize this is a long ranty, angry, and downright misogynistic post. TL;DR at the bottom.
So I finished my business/finance/economics bachelors degree last in May. I've been searching for a job since early April. I've applied or sent resumes to 20 institutions now. I've been interviewed 3 times. The first was for Charles Schwab, it was just a short phone interview. They kind of ambushed me in the middle of taking a final and I hadn't really prepared or researched, so I bombed pretty hard and didn't get a second interview. Whatever, it was pretty much my fault. The second interview was with Enterprise-Rent-A-Car, for their management trainee program. Obviously this isn't exactly my functional area of study, but my degree is still a business degree and this job was in the town I went to school in and I was desperate to be able to move back there. I researched the shit out of Enterprise and even made a huge word doc cheat sheet with answers for all the questions I was likely to be asked. When the phone interview came, I smoked the hell out of it and gave excellent responses. My interviewer seemed really pleased. Less than 24 hours later I got a rejection letter email. WTF?! Ok strike 2, I did my absolute best this time at least.
Number 3 was The Vanguard Group. I applied for a menial position taking inbound calls with account inquiries/transaction requests. It still requires a college degree, and they pay for series 7 and 63 licensing and even give you 8-10 paid weeks of full time study for those exams. Great deal! I would have been so grateful to get this job and it was one of the better offers as far as benefits/training/upward mobility goes. One of my friends from school, a Mexican girl with similar academic performance but way less work experience, told me to apply there. She managed to land a job even before graduation. Again I made a word doc from questions people posted on the internet and typed out my responses. I already knew a lot about Vanguard, as my Grandpa has been buying their mutual funds since the 80s. The phone interview came and went extremely well. The interviewer told me she was impressed with my knowledge of Vanguard. I got an in person interview last week.
I went to their campus in full business professional attire and arrived about 30 minutes early. Everyone else, including my interviewers, was more in business casual or polo+belt+slacks. Maybe I was a little overdressed. My interviewers weren't in yet, of course, but they had some periodicals to read while waiting. My first interviewer shows up 10 minutes after our scheduled appointment. She seems chipper, she's a woman in her early 30s. Our interview goes very well and she seems pleased with my responses. I have a brief case study, and do fairly well on that as well. I ask her a ton of questions about her experience working at vanguard after the interview is concluded.
I then go back out to the periodicals/HR section to wait for my second interviewer. She is about 15 minutes late. She's a white woman in her early 20s. She's in a bad mood and I can tell right off the bat. Her body language and facial expressions are particularly unwelcoming and hostile. She asks more or less the same questions and I give the same answers, but she still seems upset. She is not taking me seriously and is frankly not behaving very professionally. I keep my mouth shut, smile, and give my perky well rehearsed answers. I just get the read she wants to get rid of me as quickly as possible. I ask more questions about licensing and her experience working at Vanguard, she's a little more receptive. We take a tour of the building that lasts about 12 minutes (the first interviewer told me it was supposed to take around 30). At this point I'm already expecting not to get the job based solely on the facial expressions and body language of the second interviewer.
Today I got my rejection letter. I'm pretty pissed. All of these jobs are entry-level and paid in the range of 31k-35k. I invested so much of my time into securing this relatively crappy low paying job and they told me I'm not good enough. Just a cursory glance around the campus revealed 0 young men working there, and we saw hundreds of people. All the young people were females and all the males were 35+. Maybe I've just taken blows to my self-esteem and I'm looking for excuses here, but it seems like it's a lot harder for a man in his early 20s fresh out of college to find a job in my field than for a woman. Single, childless, young women out-earn their male counterparts by a sizable margin, after all. http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2010-09-01-single-women_N.htm Women have also historically dominated service based industries in the past few decades. In the 10 or so interviews I've had for various low-skill jobs in my life so far, I've never been interviewed by a male.
Just empirically examining the friends from my classes who've graduated with me, nearly all the females managed to secure professional employment, but only 2 of my male friends have managed. One of my close friends who I've known since elementary school has been looking since December and has had even worse luck than me, getting only 2 phone interviews and having sent out nearly 50 resumes/applications. His grades/work experience aren't quite as good as mine, but that definitely worries me.
I'm seriously regretting going to college and going into the field I chose. I just don't think I can be taken seriously as a man in my 20s from a 3rd tier university in Arizona. I was considering graduate school for a long time, and now I'm starting to reconsider it. My last job was doing supplemental instruction for international economics and for microeconomics. For a long time, my goal was to become an economics or finance professor. The model is shifting away from tenured professors and toward higher quantities of low-paid adjunct and part-time professors, so I reconsidered, as those jobs pay about as much as the jobs I've been applying for with my Bachelor's degree. I've also heard Graduate school and teaching/research assistanships can be highly exploitative. And who knows I won't be facing the same employment woes after that? I don't want to waste another 4+ years in school and not come out any more able to make money.
I'm getting desperate and a little depressed. It's been about 9 weeks since I finished school and I'm doing nothing but play sc2 and lift weights. I feel worthless and unproductive and I'm living with my mom. My confidence is shot. I don't approach girls anymore. It was so easy in college, now I'm just so ashamed at being a 22 year old sc2 playing unemployed manchild living with his mother that I can't even consider it.
I'm a relatively burly guy at 5'11 205lbs, I'm dead seriously considering a job in commercial construction, as there's a lot of opportunities for that in Arizona. I'm also of latin/black/white descent and I "fit the profile" more. My other option is to substitute teach at a public school. Both of my parents work in public schools, and from my understanding, anyone with a 4 year degree can substitute teach at a public school in most Arizona districts. I actually have relevant experience teaching too which could help. I'm not sure if I can handle kids/ de-facto babysit very well though.
Is anyone else in a similar predicament? I know TL has a lot more computer sci/engineering/real sciences majors (as in not social science), I wish I would have done one of those or just not gone to college. Maybe I should have been an electrician or plumber or something. I spent all that god damn time and money for a college education to apply for shitty jobs making in the 30ks.... except the twist is I can't get any of them.
TL;DR Can't find a job with a business/finance/economics degree. Pissed off. Suspecting employment discrimination, all females working in the entry level of financial services sector. No male friends managed to get jobs, all female friends have jobs. Might work construction (with my 4 year degree rofl) because I have Spanish skills and high level of physical fitness. I don't think it's worth the energy and anguish to apply for low level professional positions because I'm just not being taken seriously.
  
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What school? :/
My econ teacher was talking about this. He was saying that you really need a grad degree to distinguish yourself in business as as male, if you don't go to a really top tier business school. More pessimism but :/
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On July 19 2011 07:33 Froadac wrote:
What school? :/
My econ teacher was talking about this. He was saying that you really need a grad degree to distinguish yourself in business as as male, if you don't go to a really top tier business school. More pessimism but :/
Northern Arizona University (I've totally outed myself but I think there's a video of me floating around on TL already so whatever).
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It's only been 9 weeks man, I've heard of engineers spending almost a year finding jobs. Don't let it get to you, these things take time
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On July 19 2011 07:45 n.DieJokes wrote:
It's only been 9 weeks man, I've heard of engineers spending almost a year finding jobs. Don't let it get to you, these things take time
Yeah, the job search according to the ones to whom I've spoken is supposed to be hellish :x
Just keep looking! Sorry to hear about that though...
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OH. If you didn't want to out yourself :/
Sorry about that...
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Oh I forgot to mention the one offer I did manage to get: First Investors.
It's 60 hours/week, there is no salary, you do outbound cold calls to sell horribly performing mutual funds, you need to pay for your own series 7 and 63 licenses (you can borrow money from them to do this), there is no dedicated study time for this, it's commission only, and they pressure you to sell to friends/family.
It's actually possible to work for them 60 hrs/week and OWE THEM MONEY.
On July 19 2011 07:33 Froadac wrote:
What school? :/
My econ teacher was talking about this. He was saying that you really need a grad degree to distinguish yourself in business as as male, if you don't go to a really top tier business school. More pessimism but :/
This is the part that I just don't understand. Is it affirmative action? Well... their staff is 80%+ female so if they had any quotas I think they'd have already met them. Is it sort of "accidental" employment discrimination and gender role stereotypes? When people think of low level business positions like receptionists, secretaries, customer service etc., they usually think female. When they think of high level ones, they think of powerful men, but powerful middle aged men, not some 22 yo dickback out of college. Or maybe, women just perform the jobs I've been applying for better than men. Maybe a combination of all of the above.
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My friend who graduated out of Georgia Tech with an industrial engineering degree (top 3 IE programs in the nation) with some top 4 senior design project and a sicko GPA....
Works for geek squad at Best Buy... Word.
And then there are bartender friends I know who pull in +60k in Atlanta which is nice.
O yeah... never went to college. Saved that money too.
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On July 19 2011 08:14 SuperJongMan wrote:
My friend who graduated out of Georgia Tech with an industrial engineering degree (top 3 IE programs in the nation) with some top 4 senior design project and a sicko GPA....
Works for geek squad at Best Buy... Word.
That gives me the bad kind of chills. Care to elaborate what happened? How long was he looking for an engineering job?
Construction here I come! At least that pays pretty comparable to an entry level position in finance.
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I think it's just a tough time in general to get jobs right now, especially people newly out of college. Did you do any internships during college? My wife did internships throughout college and used those connections to get her first job.
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He went back to his home in Colorado. Didn't wanna travel and re-settle for a job.
Colorado has limited opportunities.... so he is doing it all over with grad school or something...
Not much to really say, smart dude but he don't give a shit... or hated what he did in school.
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Not sure if this is the case in the USA but in most countries women generally get paid less than men.
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11904 Posts
On July 19 2011 08:24 Discretionary Duck wrote:
Not sure if this is the case in the USA but in most countries women generally get paid less than men.
Young women before their first child make more than males in many large urban areas around the world.
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United States5162 Posts
On July 19 2011 08:17 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 08:14 SuperJongMan wrote:
My friend who graduated out of Georgia Tech with an industrial engineering degree (top 3 IE programs in the nation) with some top 4 senior design project and a sicko GPA....
Works for geek squad at Best Buy... Word. That gives me the bad kind of chills. Care to elaborate what happened? How long was he looking for an engineering job? Construction here I come! At least that pays pretty comparable to an entry level position in finance.
I can attest to this. I graduated May 2010 with my BSCE and passed my state test. I just landed an engineering job this past June. I'm lucky, too. I didn't graduate from a top school or with a spectacular GPA. I did have an internship one summer, but the main reason(read:only) I got the job is because I've been working for a contractor(who I've known for a long time) who knew the engineer. It's always been who you know, not what you know, and that's only gotten worse in the down economy.
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man sorry to hear about it, but seriously, I've been through some job searches and sometimes it doesn't make fucking sense to me.
I'm currently studying mathematics and finance, and although I only finished second year at my university, we have co-op terms and it's quite similar to the whole job searching process (maybe easier because the university has good connections with a lot of the employers). Anyways, so my grades are not the very best, and when school was still going on, a lot of my academically successful friends landed jobs fairly easily. So as a form of self-comfort I told myself that I'll keep looking (since I have the job experience from first year working at a pretty big company, and I was recommended by a friend so...that pretty much explains itself XD).
After school's over there is approximately 2 months or so to find a co-op job on my own. I got several interviews but didn't land the jobs. Okay fine, maybe I'm doing something wrong; need to work on my interview skills, need to know the employer more, need to improve my answers to questions. So there I was working my ass off writing cover letters, looking at online recommendations, going to interview workshops, and I got slightly better.
After about another round of interviews and not hearing back from them, I got pretty pissed. I don't think there is a significant problem with the way I answer interview questions anymore, so WHAT the flying fuck! It's mostly entry-level jobs anyways with around $12/hour. I mean seriously? I'm a fucking 2nd year student, are you paying me $40/hour to produce high quality pro shit? No. Do I have the skills and some experience? Yes. Am I enthusiastic about learning new things and putting my best efforts? YES.
What I don't understand is why employers are being so fucking picky about entry-level jobs; I mean, if the guy has the necessary background studies and he is decent or good at interviews, give the guy a fucking chance. Maybe there are better candidates out there, then fine. But my personal situation is that it's the middle of the summer, and not a lot of competition in turns of Co-op students still looking for jobs. So i get these bullshit replies from employers about how their company changed their mind about hiring, or some crap about me not bringing examples of my work from my previous work experiences.
Are you for cereal? Hiring one student with $12/hr isn't going to bankrupt your company. Second of all, why the FUCK would I bring samples of my work from my previous employer IF you didn't request for it BEFORE the interview? And besides, a lot of that stuff is confidential anyways.
It's fucking bullshit. I totally understand what you are going through (your situation is probably worse than mine). It's stupid how much effort you put into something and NEVER get the result you want.
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5003 Posts
Women also generally have higher grades than men, and network better than men. More women go to college too than men so of course on average they'll be higher paid :[
Just saying. Let's not ignore what generates these statistics ~_~
Also take it easy, job market is really difficult atm ~_~ just keep trying and you'll get it eventually. Sometimes it's not about what you could do better cause sometimes they just run into candidates that are far better than you.
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Well as a fellow business school grad, it really has a lot to do with your internships and work experience thus far. Great interviews are important but work experience is what really gets you considered. And at least in the jobs I interviewed for (granted, they're more quantitative), the interviewees are still male-dominated and for the job I ultimately accepted, the new hire class is mostly male (in my area, 5 females and around 10 males).
I will say that the more technical (as in hard skills, not pure sales) you go, the more males there are relative to females. Try developing your technical skillset in this downtime--study valuations on your own, take an unpaid internship at a wealth management firm, etc. Keep up with the markets and the news. Then keep trying. If you want to work in finance, you'll find something, though it may take awhile.
Edit: And NETWORK. Yeah I hate it but entry into business is sometimes really arbitrary. ("We have to fill a job now." "Oh really...I think I met a kid the other day who handed me his resume..." No kidding, more people have gotten jobs this way than I'd like to admit.) Hard skills make you a bit more competitive, but you need people to KNOW you have those skills.
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It's tough right now man, people can spend 1-2 years looking for a work with no luck. You just can't get discouraged and attack it as hard as you can, eventually you'll get the right interviewer in the right mood at the right company, it just takes time. Companies are still squeezing as much productivity as they can out of their current employees but with revenues increasing they're eventually going to have to hire more people. Stay positive!
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On July 19 2011 08:14 SuperJongMan wrote:
My friend who graduated out of Georgia Tech with an industrial engineering degree (top 3 IE programs in the nation) with some top 4 senior design project and a sicko GPA....
Works for geek squad at Best Buy... Word.
And then there are bartender friends I know who pull in +60k in Atlanta which is nice.
O yeah... never went to college. Saved that money too.
CRAP..I'm also doing industrial engineering at Texas A&M University(Number 8 in the nation tied with ivy league school Cornell University)but my gpa is CRAP lol. But I wouldn't mind travelling as long as It will pay for my living expenses. But now I'm worried as heck after hearing this..
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On July 19 2011 08:14 SuperJongMan wrote:
My friend who graduated out of Georgia Tech with an industrial engineering degree (top 3 IE programs in the nation) with some top 4 senior design project and a sicko GPA....
Works for geek squad at Best Buy... Word.
And then there are bartender friends I know who pull in +60k in Atlanta which is nice.
O yeah... never went to college. Saved that money too.
Oh boy, that sucks :/
Funny how these things work. One of my friends has shit GPA but manages to find a job, while I have quite decent GPA but I can't. Bullshit
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EPT
