I just made my first tutorial about how to deal with CatZ' infamous hatch block vs Command Center first on the high ground. I go over 2 replays dealing with how to react to the build and my thought process behind it. In summary, I open up with 1 tank to break the spine wall into a quick raven in order to clear the creep and save scans. From there, just follow up with hellions and you can transition into whatever you like. I feel like this is the best response to this build if you open 14 CC 16 rax 17 gas (standard). Feel free to discuss
Also let me know what you think of the video and if you have any suggestions/feedback/comments please post! If the response is good, hopefully I will make this a regular thing every week or so.
tank raven makes a lot of sense but wouldn´t you be able to cripple Z if you somehow got a small reaper squad out while doing it? from what i saw the earliest they get zergling speed is about 9:40 , plenty of time to bring the hurt right?
happy birthday bruh edit: i'm a toss player but i watch your stream and you commentate well. i enjoyed the video and would watch more if you decide to put it up
On June 04 2013 13:21 alpenrahm wrote: tank raven makes a lot of sense but wouldn´t you be able to cripple Z if you somehow got a small reaper squad out while doing it? from what i saw the earliest they get zergling speed is about 9:40 , plenty of time to bring the hurt right?
I go over it a little bit in the tutorial. Harassive responses to the hatch block (hellbat drop, cloak banshee, reapers like u say) can do some damage but the downfall is that you'll never be able to clear ur natural and take your expand. So even if you kill 10 drones, it doesn't matter because you're still on 1 base T_T
On June 04 2013 13:40 aldochillbro wrote: happy birthday bruh edit: i'm a toss player but i watch your stream and you commentate well. i enjoyed the video and would watch more if you decide to put it up
On June 04 2013 13:21 alpenrahm wrote: tank raven makes a lot of sense but wouldn´t you be able to cripple Z if you somehow got a small reaper squad out while doing it? from what i saw the earliest they get zergling speed is about 9:40 , plenty of time to bring the hurt right?
I go over it a little bit in the tutorial. Harassive responses to the hatch block (hellbat drop, cloak banshee, reapers like u say) can do some damage but the downfall is that you'll never be able to clear ur natural and take your expand. So even if you kill 10 drones, it doesn't matter because you're still on 1 base T_T
I haven't encountered it myself, so maybe my natural response would be wrong. However I feel like slowly sieging his hatch and going for early raven is exactly what he wants you to do, waste alot of time on taking out that natural while he is droning up behind it. I would at the very least make a nice reaper squad: that extra hatch + spines must seriously delay him in getting up other mineral defenses (queens + spines). Looking at your vid only around 9 minutes he has any defense at his main/natural in the form of two queens. So until that time just a few reapers could really have ruined his day.
Edit: Okay in second one the other actually makes queens earlier, but also he clearly invested way less into it.
Could you not do some practice games with Catz for this opener? You're both in the same team, afterall O_o You made a nice video, but I'm a bit concerned you are recommending an approach that pretty much contradicts Catz's recommendations for what Terran should do. I'm not saying he is the god of all things and so therefore you're wrong, but it does immediately make me skeptical.
Unfortunately, the replays you provided don't do much to convince me either - the first zerg in particular had a long period (from 6:30 to 8:00 ) where he should have been droning like a madman, but instead his macro actually just stopped :/
Happy birthday, by the way :D Are you doing anything nice?
On June 04 2013 17:50 Hairy wrote: Could you not do some practice games with Catz for this opener? You're both in the same team, afterall O_o You made a nice video, but I'm a bit concerned you are recommending an approach that pretty much contradicts Catz's recommendations for what Terran should do. I'm not saying he is the god of all things and so therefore you're wrong, but it does immediately make me skeptical.
Unfortunately, the replays you provided don't do much to convince me either - the first zerg in particular had a long period (from 6:30 to 8:00 ) where he should have been droning like a madman, but instead his macro actually just stopped :/
Happy birthday, by the way :D Are you doing anything nice?
Lol, I asked CatZ a bunch of times for some games but he was busy doing ROOT managing stuff
I had a bunch of replays of me executing the build, I just showed a few. But yeah regardless even if they are droning, it leaves you in a decent situation for the midgame.
And for my bday I'm just going to be eating. Eating alooooot :D
I still prefere scouting for this and then throwing two bunkers (touching the hatch) and one extra rax to shut this down. Pretty easy and NO tumors get spread
On June 05 2013 01:51 Doc Brawler wrote: I still prefere scouting for this and then throwing two bunkers (touching the hatch) and one extra rax to shut this down. Pretty easy and NO tumors get spread
Messing around with a practice buddy, that was what I (zerg) suggested he (terran) try, and it COMPLETELY shut me down. If you continue marine production on rax #1, and make a second rax, there was just too many marines for me to deal with (without investing far more than I would like in attempting to hold).
I faced 2 times the " Hatch block " method in ladder. Because i immediatly put a bunker at my naturel with the scv from the rax ( or from the CC ), i can see the Hatch before it finishes. When i see it, i pull 5-6 scv, cancel gas, and make 2 bunkers stuck to the Hatch. With the couple of scv who don't build the bunker, i protect my 1-2 marine from the initial zerg's ling. At the same time i put down 2-3 more barracks and make only marines.
The 2 times i did that, i had no problem to deal with this, and the zerg is far behind because i will deal with the production of 3-4 marines at the same time while i'm making scv from 2 bases.
Tank raven sounds like the worst possible response to me since you have 0 pressure. I would take my 3rd delay queens and just spam drones to 70 before stim was anywhere near done oo ... Guess I need to watch the video before I can say though
Do you have timings as to when you're able to take your base? Do you also have some more replays?
I'm curious on how much this costs the zerg vs how much mining it actually ends up denying you. The zerg in the replay seemed like they weren't macroing well (they had even or below supply for quite a long time). They also let you just take the 3rd base location, when the zerg should have a ling sitting there to prevent it. The zerg's build loses all power when you can just float your CC over to the 3rd base location and the zerg has no idea.
On June 05 2013 01:51 Doc Brawler wrote: I still prefere scouting for this and then throwing two bunkers (touching the hatch) and one extra rax to shut this down. Pretty easy and NO tumors get spread
Messing around with a practice buddy, that was what I (zerg) suggested he (terran) try, and it COMPLETELY shut me down. If you continue marine production on rax #1, and make a second rax, there was just too many marines for me to deal with (without investing far more than I would like in attempting to hold).
so is it CC rax gas rax? or do u just go CC rax rax? That's obviously way better at dealing with it but you have to know it's coming way early before they even put the hatch down I think.
On June 05 2013 08:49 TheSambassador wrote: Do you have timings as to when you're able to take your base? Do you also have some more replays?
I'm curious on how much this costs the zerg vs how much mining it actually ends up denying you. The zerg in the replay seemed like they weren't macroing well (they had even or below supply for quite a long time). They also let you just take the 3rd base location, when the zerg should have a ling sitting there to prevent it. The zerg's build loses all power when you can just float your CC over to the 3rd base location and the zerg has no idea.
I mention this in the tutorial on how you secure the 3rd (if it's close and the map allows it) even if they have lings there.
swear i saw a game on demuslims stream where this happened. he just pulled 10 scv's and killed it as it was about to pop with 2marines too. IMO that is a better reaction, you dont really lose that much income imo i think its worth it
Great tutorial. Doesn't look like such a scary Zerg move after all. This is a classic reshuffling to get back to the macro game: the goals remain the same. Cheese like this too often works because we react even more cheesily. Love the auto turret d at the third, too. Classy stuff.
EPT
