Featuring a host of familiar faces and relative upstart iAsonu, the IEM: Shanghai quarterfinals were ripe with talent. Sandwiched between a pair of ZvT’s was a TvP between tournament favorite INnoVation and herO, as well as a ZvZ with recently revived Rogue taking on Dark.
TY briefly fell behind to iAsonu's swarm hosts and roaches, but he held fast, killing drone after drone while keeping iAsonu on equal bases. Up twenty workers and ahead on army, TY had an easy time closing the game out.
On Abyssal Reef, iAsonu's solid defense enabled him to ramp up to mutalisks and then roaches. TY eventually wrested control back with a strong bio/tank army, winning every major fight despite iAsonu’s brood lords. Down on workers and lacking an army, iAsonu conceded, putting him in a 2-0 hole.
iAsonu seemed to be on stable footing as he took his fourth on Ascension to Aiur, but TY chose that moment to hit in three locations. iAsonu lost workers to liberators and all his zerglings to a widow mine hit. From there it was a formality, with TY maxing out and taking the series 3-0.
INnoVation's early mine drop had killed eleven workers before being pushed out by phoenix/adept. herO attempted to claw back into the game with warp prism harass, but was shut down. After a lengthy pause by herO, a doom drop was all it took to give INnoVation a lead in the second bo5 of the day.
herO's oracle wasn't able to get much done in game two which set INnoVation up for a lengthy bio/mine siege on herO's third. herO broke the position when Blink finished and quickly pushed across the map to get on the scoreboard.
herO's proxy stargate didn't just fail to produce results, it blocked his gold base, forcing him to expand to his third. INnoVation’s eight marine drop killed nine probes, with mine drops adding to the tally. herO eventually attacked with phoenix/adept, but INnoVation held to reclaim the lead.
herO's pylon rush put him five workers and a base ahead after a pair of oracles and a mothership core canceled INnoVation's natural. INnoVation loaded up on cyclones and vikings, but herO held the counterattack with stalkers, sending the match to a decisive game.
INnoVation started game five well, taking a small supply lead, but a botched drop into herO's main and faulty attack on the herO’s third put him at a severe disadvantage. Wasting no time, herO marched across the map with colossi and Blink to close out the game and match 3-2.
After Rogue's 13/12 failed to kill Dark, things moved into the midgame. Dark dabbled in mutalisks, but both player ended up on roach/hydra. They macroed up and exchanged blows, but, in the end, Rogue's constant harassment and timely mutalisk switch gave him a 1-0 lead.
Rogue completely duped Dark to go up 2-0. A seemingly standard gasless 12 pool turned into a massive ling flood that caught Dark, who was double expanding after losing his natural, completely unaware.
Rogue clinched a semifinal berth as a proper roach vs roach game erupted into a basetrade. Rogue established a strong position in Dark's main that proved costly to break. From there Rogue's own burrowed roaches helped him pick apart Dark. WIth defeat imminent, Dark marched across the map, only to lose his army and hopes of winning the tournament.
ByuN went for three rax reaper to start the final series. soO defended well, but losing fourteen workers to a widow mine drop tripped up his macro. He was able to reach hydra/ling/bane, but ByuN kept the pressure up, sniping bases while pushing the front, eventually taking the game.
ByuN opted for the 2/1/1 on Proxima Station, but soO held it and the follow up tank push with ease. ByuN kept pressuring but found no purchase as soO ramped up to ultralisks and infestors on his way to evening the series.
After defending ByuN’s reapers, soO appeared to be in complete control of the game with a solid supply lead and a sizeable hydra/ling/bane force. One poor engagement from soO into high ground tanks was all ByuN needed to seize momentum and never look back
One win away from victory, ByuN again turned to his signature build. His reapers canceled soO’s third twice before slaughtering zerglings en masse. Depleted, soO was never able to marshal a proper defense. Two unopposed liberators were enough to make ByuN the final semifinalist.
Join us tomorrow for the conclusion of IEM Shanghai.
I mean when it gets as far as the Ro8... everyone on here kinda has name value and quite a few fans so wouldn't say fan favorites Also Rogue and herO have been the hot stuff of KR for a while now so I don't think its really unexpected. I don't really understand the title
On July 29 2017 22:50 RCCar wrote: I mean when it gets as far as the Ro8... everyone on here kinda has name value and quite a few fans so wouldn't say fan favorites Also Rogue and herO have been the hot stuff of KR for a while now so I don't think its really unexpected. I don't really understand the title
The title is understanable: -Innovation vs herO: nobody can deny that Inno is slightly favor versus herO, many people would also agree this guy is favor against every non-Terran players at the moment. -Dark vs Rogue: while Dark's ZvZ is his weakest MU, he's still a bigger name than Rogue. -Soo vs ByuN: pretty even matched, but Soo is still one of the best Zerg while ByuN is nothing without reaper.
On July 29 2017 22:50 RCCar wrote: I mean when it gets as far as the Ro8... everyone on here kinda has name value and quite a few fans so wouldn't say fan favorites Also Rogue and herO have been the hot stuff of KR for a while now so I don't think its really unexpected. I don't really understand the title
The title is understanable: -Innovation vs herO: nobody can deny that Inno is slightly favor versus herO, many people would also agree this guy is favor against every non-Terran players at the moment. -Dark vs Rogue: while Dark's ZvZ is his weakest MU, he's still a bigger name than Rogue. -Soo vs ByuN: pretty even matched, but Soo is still one of the best Zerg while ByuN is nothing without reaper.
Eh, soO has pretty bad TvZ (for where he is positioned), so if anything ByuN was the favorite.
Especially cause reaper nerf has not yet happened.
Mass Reapers remain an interesting opener as long as no one else is close to Byun-level is using them. When a 2nd Terran player starts winning every TvZ with a mass reaper opening its time to patch. Until then, lets see what Zerg can do to counter it. That 4 Queen drop in game 3 was very cool and it looked like it granted Soo a lead in the game.
Mass Reapers are a more interesting opener than Mass Zerglings. Reapers can cliff jump, require careful positioning.. etc. and only 1 guy is doing it at Byun's level.
Rogue may be the best player in the world ATM, and Dark is pretty terrible in ZvZ. I dont even know how anyone could have considered Dark a favorite... But agreed Inno and soO were favored to win for sure
On July 30 2017 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Mass Reapers remain an interesting opener as long as no one else is close to Byun-level is using them. When a 2nd Terran player starts winning every TvZ with a mass reaper opening its time to patch. Until then, lets see what Zerg can do to counter it.
Mass Reapers are a more interesting opener than Mass Zerglings. Reapers can cliff jump, require careful positioning.. etc. and only 1 guy is doing it at Byun's level.
U mean people like Gumiho, Uthermal, Maru, Heromarine, Bunny KR and so on and on? Ofc Byun abuses this themost often and best as he kinda invented it but there is no doubt mass reapers openings MUST be nerfed. I'm disgusted every time i see this. Zerg is defensless vs that. Even if he defends it by killing all reapers, he spent so much larva, and recources, sacrificed so much economy and tech that he dies from follow up regardless. It's stupid and anticlimactic and ahould go away.
On July 30 2017 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Mass Reapers remain an interesting opener as long as no one else is close to Byun-level is using them. When a 2nd Terran player starts winning every TvZ with a mass reaper opening its time to patch. Until then, lets see what Zerg can do to counter it.
Mass Reapers are a more interesting opener than Mass Zerglings. Reapers can cliff jump, require careful positioning.. etc. and only 1 guy is doing it at Byun's level.
U mean people like Gumiho, Uthermal, Maru, Heromarine, Bunny KR and so on and on? Ofc Byun abuses this themost often and best as he kinda invented it but there is no doubt mass reapers openings MUST be nerfed. I'm disgusted every time i see this. Zerg is defensless vs that. Even if he defends it by killing all reapers, he spent so much larva, and recources, sacrificed so much economy and tech that he dies from follow up regardless. It's stupid and anticlimactic and ahould go away.
HOLY SHIT, IT IS SO HORRIBLE !! ZERG must be really suffering in TvZ !! . . . . .
June 2017, out of 1546 games, TvZ win rate : 47.15%
May 2017, out of 1684 games, TvZ win rate : 47.15%
April 2017, out of 1597 games, TvZ win rate : 49.03%
March 2017, out of 1406 games, TvZ win rate : 48.08%
In fact you had to go back to Jan 2017 before Terrans had a over 50% win rate over Zergs. But yeah reapers are OP and Terrans are abusing it everywhere...
On July 30 2017 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Mass Reapers remain an interesting opener as long as no one else is close to Byun-level is using them. When a 2nd Terran player starts winning every TvZ with a mass reaper opening its time to patch. Until then, lets see what Zerg can do to counter it. That 4 Queen drop in game 3 was very cool and it looked like it granted Soo a lead in the game.
Mass Reapers are a more interesting opener than Mass Zerglings. Reapers can cliff jump, require careful positioning.. etc. and only 1 guy is doing it at Byun's level.
bad argument. it's strong on ladder at many levels between equally skilled players. people were saying the same thing about swarm hosts for a very very very long time because "no koreans were playing swarm hosts." then guess what? koreans started playing swarm hosts.
also, the argument is more complex than "reapers OP." some of the things that make it bad starcraft include:
-almost impossible to scout reliably and already deadly by the time you notice it, which is the same reason people hated when cannon rushes were very strong in HOTS -there are no "safe" zerg builds in existence that offer any blind advantage at all, which makes it immune to metagaming -the micro interaction on the part of the zerg player is literally just pulling units back on creep over and over and over and over and over while the terran chips at your defensive tools at very close to zero risk for a player who has practiced using them, which makes it abusive for one player and unfun for the other. and yes, enjoyment is what video games are about, even starcraft. conversely, a zerg player who has practiced zergling and drone micro in almost every game for years will still take losses for a split second's inattention -you can accomplish nothing other than forcing necessary defensive units and still end up even or ahead in economy and upgrades because of the way terran mineral usage flows
i don't care if the winrates are even or if it's "possible to defend." cannon rushes were always "possible to defend," but the interaction for defending them was still a horrible clusterfuck that made people not want to play
On July 30 2017 01:38 brickrd wrote: i don't care if the winrates are even or if it's "possible to defend." cannon rushes were always "possible to defend," but the interaction for defending them was still a horrible clusterfuck that made people not want to play
ya , i don't think its a horrible clusterfuck. right now, i think its interesting. cannons can't move. reapers can move. reapers are more interesting than cannons. true, winrates aren't that big a deal they can numerically buff any # of Terran ground units to make up for a Reaper nerf.
On July 30 2017 01:38 brickrd wrote: -there are no "safe" zerg builds in existence that offer any blind advantage at all, which makes it immune to metagaming
if this is true ... this is a good point in favour of a Reaper change. if over a certain period of time no Zerg invents a build then Reapers need to be patched. i don't know if its been long enough though.
whatever happens, i don't want Blizzard buffing any Terran air units in order to keep the TvZ winrates near 50%.
On July 30 2017 01:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote: if over a certain period of time no Zerg invents a build then Reapers need to be patched. i don't know if its been long enough though.
You think almost 2 years isn't long enough? The build is from LotV beta and they still haven't found an answer that gets them a position better than even if the Terran doesn't mess up the reaper control.
On July 30 2017 01:38 brickrd wrote: i don't care if the winrates are even or if it's "possible to defend." cannon rushes were always "possible to defend," but the interaction for defending them was still a horrible clusterfuck that made people not want to play
ya , i don't think its a horrible clusterfuck. right now, i think its interesting. cannons can't move. reapers can move. reapers are more interesting than cannons. true, winrates aren't that big a deal they can numerically buff any # of Terran ground units to make up for a Reaper nerf.
On July 30 2017 01:38 brickrd wrote: -there are no "safe" zerg builds in existence that offer any blind advantage at all, which makes it immune to metagaming
if this is true ... this is a good point in favour of a Reaper change. if over a certain period of time no Zerg invents a build then Reapers need to be patched. i don't know if its been long enough though.
whatever happens, i don't want Blizzard buffing any Terran air units in order to keep the TvZ winrates near 50%.
It's been a year and a half now what more do you need, it's pretty clear nobody is any closer to finding a build that counter reaper. The execution of the defense is a bit better but that's all. Even blink all in had counter at this point.
On July 30 2017 01:38 brickrd wrote: i don't care if the winrates are even or if it's "possible to defend." cannon rushes were always "possible to defend," but the interaction for defending them was still a horrible clusterfuck that made people not want to play
ya , i don't think its a horrible clusterfuck. right now, i think its interesting. cannons can't move. reapers can move. reapers are more interesting than cannons. true, winrates aren't that big a deal they can numerically buff any # of Terran ground units to make up for a Reaper nerf.
On July 30 2017 01:38 brickrd wrote: -there are no "safe" zerg builds in existence that offer any blind advantage at all, which makes it immune to metagaming
if this is true ... this is a good point in favour of a Reaper change. if over a certain period of time no Zerg invents a build then Reapers need to be patched. i don't know if its been long enough though. whatever happens, i don't want Blizzard buffing any Terran air units in order to keep the TvZ winrates near 50%.
It's been a year and a half now what more do you need, it's pretty clear nobody is any closer to finding a build that counter reaper. The execution of the defense is a bit better but that's all. Even blink all in had counter at this point.
it took a while for Byun to get this 3-Rax Reaper thing working. its not like every TvZ has seen nothing but 3-Rax Reaper openings in every GSL and SSL for 18 months.
Also, in Blizzard's comments i don't think they view Reaper interactions as a horrible interaction. I think their objection is that it is a very potent early attack with too low of a risk and too easy of a transition out if it fails. I pretty much agree with Blizzard's perspective on this. Byun repeatedly has Zergs a few nanometers from being shoved off of a cliff while Byun is at almost no risk and he has an easy transition out of the attack and into a standard mid game. His only real "penalty" seems to be a very early 2nd gas and 3 SCVs devoted to that gas.
On July 30 2017 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Mass Reapers remain an interesting opener as long as no one else is close to Byun-level is using them. When a 2nd Terran player starts winning every TvZ with a mass reaper opening its time to patch. Until then, lets see what Zerg can do to counter it.
Mass Reapers are a more interesting opener than Mass Zerglings. Reapers can cliff jump, require careful positioning.. etc. and only 1 guy is doing it at Byun's level.
U mean people like Gumiho, Uthermal, Maru, Heromarine, Bunny KR and so on and on? Ofc Byun abuses this themost often and best as he kinda invented it but there is no doubt mass reapers openings MUST be nerfed. I'm disgusted every time i see this. Zerg is defensless vs that. Even if he defends it by killing all reapers, he spent so much larva, and recources, sacrificed so much economy and tech that he dies from follow up regardless. It's stupid and anticlimactic and ahould go away.
HOLY SHIT, IT IS SO HORRIBLE !! ZERG must be really suffering in TvZ !! . . . . .
June 2017, out of 1546 games, TvZ win rate : 47.15%
May 2017, out of 1684 games, TvZ win rate : 47.15%
April 2017, out of 1597 games, TvZ win rate : 49.03%
March 2017, out of 1406 games, TvZ win rate : 48.08%
In fact you had to go back to Jan 2017 before Terrans had a over 50% win rate over Zergs. But yeah reapers are OP and Terrans are abusing it everywhere...
On July 29 2017 22:50 RCCar wrote: I mean when it gets as far as the Ro8... everyone on here kinda has name value and quite a few fans so wouldn't say fan favorites Also Rogue and herO have been the hot stuff of KR for a while now so I don't think its really unexpected. I don't really understand the title
The title is understanable: -Innovation vs herO: nobody can deny that Inno is slightly favor versus herO, many people would also agree this guy is favor against every non-Terran players at the moment. -Dark vs Rogue: while Dark's ZvZ is his weakest MU, he's still a bigger name than Rogue. -Soo vs ByuN: pretty even matched, but Soo is still one of the best Zerg while ByuN is nothing without reaper.
yeah again, they aren't really huge favorites. Even as you write them you keep saying, "while" "even" "still" which means there it still isn't an upset. I'm not saying that Innovation isn't the strongest Terran right now, but I'm saying that if you look at herO's SSL records, its pretty impressive. Innovation losing isn't too big of a shock. Neither was Dark v Rogue since Dark was falling off form a bit lately and Rogue has been considered the strongest on ladder for quite some time. and again, Byun really favors his 3 rax reaper but they're pretty good so... can't really say that it was an upset.
On July 30 2017 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Mass Reapers remain an interesting opener as long as no one else is close to Byun-level is using them. When a 2nd Terran player starts winning every TvZ with a mass reaper opening its time to patch. Until then, lets see what Zerg can do to counter it. That 4 Queen drop in game 3 was very cool and it looked like it granted Soo a lead in the game.
Mass Reapers are a more interesting opener than Mass Zerglings. Reapers can cliff jump, require careful positioning.. etc. and only 1 guy is doing it at Byun's level.
I second that. Even Ty, Gumiho, Innovation and Maru cannot play reapers like Byun does. Reapers are only very effective in his hands. The other players usually only make 1 reaper into CC.
On July 30 2017 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Mass Reapers remain an interesting opener as long as no one else is close to Byun-level is using them. When a 2nd Terran player starts winning every TvZ with a mass reaper opening its time to patch. Until then, lets see what Zerg can do to counter it.
Mass Reapers are a more interesting opener than Mass Zerglings. Reapers can cliff jump, require careful positioning.. etc. and only 1 guy is doing it at Byun's level.
U mean people like Gumiho, Uthermal, Maru, Heromarine, Bunny KR and so on and on? Ofc Byun abuses this themost often and best as he kinda invented it but there is no doubt mass reapers openings MUST be nerfed. I'm disgusted every time i see this. Zerg is defensless vs that. Even if he defends it by killing all reapers, he spent so much larva, and recources, sacrificed so much economy and tech that he dies from follow up regardless. It's stupid and anticlimactic and ahould go away.
HOLY SHIT, IT IS SO HORRIBLE !! ZERG must be really suffering in TvZ !! . . . . .
June 2017, out of 1546 games, TvZ win rate : 47.15%
May 2017, out of 1684 games, TvZ win rate : 47.15%
April 2017, out of 1597 games, TvZ win rate : 49.03%
March 2017, out of 1406 games, TvZ win rate : 48.08%
In fact you had to go back to Jan 2017 before Terrans had a over 50% win rate over Zergs. But yeah reapers are OP and Terrans are abusing it everywhere...
Facts don't matter to these guys.
People don't hate 3 rax reaper because of the ladder, it's in fact very hard to pull of at lower level, they hate it because when you are good enough (and yes there's only very few people who are good enough but considering there's thousand of dollars at stakes it's a pretty big deal) it's a rush build with no counter at all with a very easy macro transition. Nerfing reapers would not even change the meta that much since there is no build that counter it and it's not like there is no other terran offensive build that can punish a hatch first gasless or some other super greedy zerg play.
It's not normal that Byun could right at the start of the game "hey I'm doing a 3 rax reaper" and nothing would change in the game, there is absolutely no downfall to do it when you are good at controlling reaper. It just take all the strategy out of the game, and it's so fucking boring to watch.
Perhaps Gumiho / Inno / Maru / Uthermal can't play reapers like Byun does, but they can still play them well enough to enter mid game with a strong advantage over an equivalent Zerg while sacrificing little risk.
At first I loved watching the Reaper micro wars from Byun or Uthermal, but it's getting to the point where the game is honestly becoming boring and one dimensional. At the highest level, and I mean the HIGHEST level, TvZ feels like an utter uphill battle for Zergs at the moment. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to try to defend all early/mid game against reaper pressure into window mine drops + liberators + marine drops.
It's not just the reaper pressure, it's the followup. Perhaps I'm just tired of the status quo of TvZ. I would love to see some more mech.
Rogue!!! I still feel very sorry for his GSL champion title in season 2, which was stolen by one blocked zergling. Had he gone through, nobody could write that "favourites fall"
On July 30 2017 06:33 Diabolique wrote: Rogue!!! I still feel very sorry for his GSL champion title in season 2, which was stolen by one blocked zergling. Had he gone through, nobody could write that "favourites fall"
It was a queen.
On July 30 2017 06:50 EEk1TwEEk wrote: This is your time to shine Sexy Boy! Make your first semi-finals turn into Win in the finals!!
Rogue has been to the semifinals of a premier event three times prior to this weekend, mostly notably at Blizzcon 2015 where he lost to sOs.
On July 30 2017 04:13 HappyMinti wrote: Perhaps Gumiho / Inno / Maru / Uthermal can't play reapers like Byun does, but they can still play them well enough to enter mid game with a strong advantage over an equivalent Zerg while sacrificing little risk.
At first I loved watching the Reaper micro wars from Byun or Uthermal, but it's getting to the point where the game is honestly becoming boring and one dimensional. At the highest level, and I mean the HIGHEST level, TvZ feels like an utter uphill battle for Zergs at the moment. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to try to defend all early/mid game against reaper pressure into window mine drops + liberators + marine drops.
It's not just the reaper pressure, it's the followup. Perhaps I'm just tired of the status quo of TvZ. I would love to see some more mech.
i've been binge watching GSL and SSL recently and other than Byun i don't see a lot of Mass Reaper pressure openings in TvZ. can u name specific games/series where this happens and its not Byun?
On July 30 2017 06:33 Diabolique wrote: Rogue!!! I still feel very sorry for his GSL champion title in season 2, which was stolen by one blocked zergling. Had he gone through, nobody could write that "favourites fall"
On July 30 2017 06:50 EEk1TwEEk wrote: This is your time to shine Sexy Boy! Make your first semi-finals turn into Win in the finals!!
Rogue has been to the semifinals of a premier event three times prior to this weekend, mostly notably at Blizzcon 2015 where he lost to sOs.
Yes, the queen has blocked the zergling. Queen was blocking, zergling was blocked. And it was so tight that had only one single zergling gone through, Rogue could have been through.
June 2017, out of 1546 games, TvZ win rate : 47.15%
May 2017, out of 1684 games, TvZ win rate : 47.15%
April 2017, out of 1597 games, TvZ win rate : 49.03%
March 2017, out of 1406 games, TvZ win rate : 48.08%
In fact you had to go back to Jan 2017 before Terrans had a over 50% win rate over Zergs. But yeah reapers are OP and Terrans are abusing it everywhere...
Facts don't matter to these guys.
The other logical extension of this is if the reaper vs zerg is broken and a problem that strongly implies terran is at a greater disadvantage in basically all other scenarios. My money is on that lame anti micro spell again (#gamedesign)... That said I always liked the idea of limiting the grenade to 3 charges vulture mine style. It puts a clock on it as long as the zerg pressures the reapers to get them to burn grenades.
But back on topic, I'm also not seeing how any of these are the great upsets the title implies.
June 2017, out of 1546 games, TvZ win rate : 47.15%
May 2017, out of 1684 games, TvZ win rate : 47.15%
April 2017, out of 1597 games, TvZ win rate : 49.03%
March 2017, out of 1406 games, TvZ win rate : 48.08%
In fact you had to go back to Jan 2017 before Terrans had a over 50% win rate over Zergs. But yeah reapers are OP and Terrans are abusing it everywhere...
Facts don't matter to these guys.
The other logical extension of this is if the reaper vs zerg is broken and a problem that strongly implies terran is at a greater disadvantage in basically all other scenarios. My money is on that lame anti micro spell again (#gamedesign)... That said I always liked the idea of limiting the grenade to 3 charges vulture mine style. It puts a clock on it as long as the zerg pressures the reapers to get them to burn grenades.
But back on topic, I'm also not seeing how any of these are the great upsets the title implies.
Terran won all 3 starleagues last season. Just because some EU terrans are getting trashed doesn't mean terran is too weak.
I guess now everyone will analyze the shit out of Rogue's vods to see how to counter his strategies. Nice to see a zerg finally winning something, but i hope it will be an SSL or GSL next. But then Innovation is there, so it's a tough one.
EPT
INnoVation and 
herO, as well as a ZvZ with recently revived 
Rogue taking on 
IEM Season XII - Shanghai
