"The competition at Romania will not only have 150 000 SEK, two direct slots to the Grand Final at DreamHack Winter 2012, it will aslo conclude the the ranking and the 12 qualifications slots. The DreamHack Summer Champion MaNa is returning to Eizo Open and will face the top of the leader board coming to Bucharest: Stephano, Ret, Nerchio, TheSTC, TargA and NaNiwa. They will all be challenged and have a run for the championship, the money and the last points for qualification.
incaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.......it is time my friends, we shall witness the rise of the dark.............. once defeated by NESTEA(GOD) 4-0, he will become the dark shrine which we pray upon in the coming years.................
It's funny that dreamhack almost never has all the bst players and tiptop koreans in it, but always has super good games and is still my favourite tournament to watch.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
DreamHack has no legal rights to stop someone from participating in their tournament? I would love to hear how much you scored in your exams for your degree in Romanian law.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
DreamHack has no legal rights to stop someone from participating in their tournament? I would love to hear how much you scored in your exams for your degree in Romanian law.
Well tell me on what grounds can they deny a player when they have a tournament open for everyone? They cant. Btw Romania is part of the Eu, so i dont need to know crap about Romanian law.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
DreamHack has no legal rights to stop someone from participating in their tournament? I would love to hear how much you scored in your exams for your degree in Romanian law.
Well tell me on what grounds can they deny a player when they have a tournament open for everyone? They cant. Btw Romania is part of the Eu, so i dont need to know crap about Romanian law.
The fact that he could actually still goto Prison if the people he played or organisation under VeraLynn's alias made a complaint for Fraud?
So oGs is having a reunion party in Romania then? The list of Koreans attending would have been exciting 18 months ago, but nowadays not so much, although theStC is at least decent. It will be interesting to see how Europe's finest stack up against these 3rd tier Koreans.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries.
No, just no.
Yes it does. He comitted fraud exploiting a company for their money and their advertisement - that definitely can put people in jail and get enormous amount of fees.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
I am actually quite angry at how people don't realise the seriousness of what he did and people react like "Shit happens but it's an Open Tournament" people dream to be a Pro-gamer and he took it for granted and exploited it, took everyone in the community for a mug and people are too deluded to realise it.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
It's not over the line. It's something people get very very big fines for if it reaches a certain level and can get jailed for as well. It's very simple, it's fraud.
What amazes me is the white knights fighting for DeathAngel.
Dude doesn't deserve shit. Fraud is Fraud, neither DeathAngel or Veralynn should be allowed in this community imo. Especially since Veralynn completely straight up went awol, and neither DeathAngel or his team have made a statement.
If your not even gonna own up to your actions, why do you deserve a second chance?
I agree with Bumblebee its very serious and should be treated as such.
Edit: Waxangel to be frank with every offense there is a number of people saying "its not serious", "it doesnt really matter| "its nothing", remember Dimaga in TSL remember Savior? Some people just do not see the bigger picture.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
DreamHack has no legal rights to stop someone from participating in their tournament? I would love to hear how much you scored in your exams for your degree in Romanian law.
Well tell me on what grounds can they deny a player when they have a tournament open for everyone? They cant. Btw Romania is part of the Eu, so i dont need to know crap about Romanian law.
Do you actualy believe that they accepted every single player interested in this tournament and in the end got an exactly 64 man bracket? lol DH must be the luckiest tournament in the world.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
It's not over the line. It's something people get very very big fines for if it reaches a certain level and can get jailed for as well. It's very simple, it's fraud.
Well if you argue this way then our community is sexist for letting these women get extra attention due to the attention they get. I personally am of the opinion that is it just fine, but I have a friend/s who think it is absolutely unfair as well. Foreigners getting seeds in GSL is racist then? Correct if I am wrong.
I think what he did is obviously wrong, but the point I am trying to make is what damage did he do? Compared to maphackers that simply taking money that they have not worked for. Did DA hurt anyone personally, sure I met talked and played him on bn and he probably isnt the friendliest guy, but he had a solid reason which is money.
In my opinion something like this can only be allowed once, he does not deserve to eternally banned like for example spades.
On October 06 2012 01:03 Waxangel wrote: If a male pro smurfed for another male pro in a "regular" tournament, you guys would be going fucking insane
meh, what we have here is a case of the 'loud minority'. i think very few people actually want DeathAngel in this scene anymore
I have to agree with this.
I was a fan after his almost qualification to code A twice. But when the next real thing I saw from him was this blatant fraud I just 100% stopped liking him; I can't imagine how anyone can think it isn't an issue.
I thought AL and DeathAngel weren't affiliated anymore, am I wrong?
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
It's not over the line. It's something people get very very big fines for if it reaches a certain level and can get jailed for as well. It's very simple, it's fraud.
Well if you argue this way then our community is sexist for letting these women get extra attention due to the attention they get. I personally am of the opinion that is it just fine, but I have a friend/s who think it is absolutely unfair as well. Foreigners getting seeds in GSL is racist then? Correct if I am wrong.
I think what he did is obviously wrong, but the point I am trying to make is what damage did he do? Compared to maphackers that simply taking money that they have not worked for. Did DA hurt anyone personally, sure I met talked and played him on bn and he probably isnt the friendliest guy, but he had a solid reason which is money.
In my opinion something like this can only be allowed once, he does not deserve to eternally banned like for example spades.
It's fraud, it's pretty simple to understand when money is involved.
On October 06 2012 01:03 Waxangel wrote: If a male pro smurfed for another male pro in a "regular" tournament, you guys would be going fucking insane
meh, what we have here is a case of the 'loud minority'. i think very few people actually want DeathAngel in this scene anymore
I have to agree with this.
I was a fan after his almost qualification to code A twice. But when the next real thing I saw from him was this blatant fraud I just 100% stopped liking him; I can't imagine how anyone can think it isn't an issue.
I thought AL and DeathAngel weren't affiliated anymore, am I wrong?
I didn't know anything about him before the controversy. After seeing his attitude after being caught and his posts on the thread I realized I didn't want to know anything about him. Will be interesting to see the coverage at the event and if he gets mentioned by the casters or heckled by people there.
Why exactly do we need massive shipping costs for 64 players, with about 15 having good chances of winning? Is this growing E-Sports or is it limiting E-Sports?
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
It's not over the line. It's something people get very very big fines for if it reaches a certain level and can get jailed for as well. It's very simple, it's fraud.
Well if you argue this way then our community is sexist for letting these women get extra attention due to the attention they get. I personally am of the opinion that is it just fine, but I have a friend/s who think it is absolutely unfair as well. Foreigners getting seeds in GSL is racist then? Correct if I am wrong.
I think what he did is obviously wrong, but the point I am trying to make is what damage did he do? Compared to maphackers that simply taking money that they have not worked for. Did DA hurt anyone personally, sure I met talked and played him on bn and he probably isnt the friendliest guy, but he had a solid reason which is money.
In my opinion something like this can only be allowed once, he does not deserve to eternally banned like for example spades.
He is also simply taking money from other people? He takes viewers away from other people by having her acknowledged for something she isn't. He is also taking away customers from real coaches who actually knows the game rather than her who cheated her way to being accepted.
Also your other arguments is a completely different story and has no relation to what we're arguing here. I can understand why people don'tlike direct seeds into GSL and stuff, but it has nothing to do with this.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
It's not over the line. It's something people get very very big fines for if it reaches a certain level and can get jailed for as well. It's very simple, it's fraud.
Well if you argue this way then our community is sexist for letting these women get extra attention due to the attention they get. I personally am of the opinion that is it just fine, but I have a friend/s who think it is absolutely unfair as well. Foreigners getting seeds in GSL is racist then? Correct if I am wrong.
I think what he did is obviously wrong, but the point I am trying to make is what damage did he do? Compared to maphackers that simply taking money that they have not worked for. Did DA hurt anyone personally, sure I met talked and played him on bn and he probably isnt the friendliest guy, but he had a solid reason which is money.
In my opinion something like this can only be allowed once, he does not deserve to eternally banned like for example spades.
He is also simply taking money from other people? He takes viewers away from other people by having her acknowledged for something she isn't. He is also taking away customers from real coaches who actually knows the game rather than her who cheated her way to being accepted.
Also your other arguments is a completely different story and has no relation to what we're arguing here. I can understand why people don'tlike direct seeds into GSL and stuff, but it has nothing to do with this.
Your points are valid. I tried to bring up unfairness that clearly exists in our ecosystem at the moment, I can understand that as a competitor or upncoming/trying to go pro players are really upset due to someone getting more attention due to their sex and I think arguing whether these unfairnesses are justified is a really tricky topic.
DA plays the smallest role in this dispute since he is only playing, the majority of the problem roots from veralynn and the way this community views female gamers. Nobody would care if DA smurfed as another guy. I believe he should not be punished but not banned from these events. I really dislike the fact that people say he should kicked out completely from the community as something like that would be too severe.
What do you think would be fair for his punishment and how do you justified it relatively to cheating. Assuming cheating would be something that deserves to get banned from the community forever.
On October 06 2012 01:11 TigerKarl wrote: Why exactly do we need massive shipping costs for 64 players, with about 15 having good chances of winning? Is this growing E-Sports or is it limiting E-Sports?
This tournament (just like the three earlier main DH events this year) is an open tournament. Anyone could sign-up to play.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
It's not over the line. It's something people get very very big fines for if it reaches a certain level and can get jailed for as well. It's very simple, it's fraud.
Well if you argue this way then our community is sexist for letting these women get extra attention due to the attention they get. I personally am of the opinion that is it just fine, but I have a friend/s who think it is absolutely unfair as well. Foreigners getting seeds in GSL is racist then? Correct if I am wrong.
I think what he did is obviously wrong, but the point I am trying to make is what damage did he do? Compared to maphackers that simply taking money that they have not worked for. Did DA hurt anyone personally, sure I met talked and played him on bn and he probably isnt the friendliest guy, but he had a solid reason which is money.
In my opinion something like this can only be allowed once, he does not deserve to eternally banned like for example spades.
He is also simply taking money from other people? He takes viewers away from other people by having her acknowledged for something she isn't. He is also taking away customers from real coaches who actually knows the game rather than her who cheated her way to being accepted.
Also your other arguments is a completely different story and has no relation to what we're arguing here. I can understand why people don'tlike direct seeds into GSL and stuff, but it has nothing to do with this.
Your points are valid. I tried to bring up unfairness that clearly exists in our ecosystem at the moment, I can understand that as a competitor or upncoming/trying to go pro players are really upset due to someone getting more attention due to their sex and I think arguing whether these unfairnesses are justified is a really tricky topic.
DA plays the smallest role in this dispute since he is only playing, the majority of the problem roots from veralynn and the way this community views female gamers. Nobody would care if DA smurfed as another guy. I believe he should not be punished but not banned from these events. I really dislike the fact that people say he should kicked out completely from the community as something like that would be too severe.
What do you think would be fair for his punishment and how do you justified it relatively to cheating. Assuming cheating would be something that deserves to get banned from the community forever.
How can you classify as participating in a Female-only tournament as a Male not cheating? What planet do you live on??
How can you classify as participating in a Female-only tournament as a Male not cheating? What planet do you live on??[/QUOTE]
didnt know about that sry, well in that case he must return money, im not sure if he did. overall what i am trying to say is he deserves 1 more chance and only 1 more chance.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
It's not over the line. It's something people get very very big fines for if it reaches a certain level and can get jailed for as well. It's very simple, it's fraud.
Well if you argue this way then our community is sexist for letting these women get extra attention due to the attention they get. I personally am of the opinion that is it just fine, but I have a friend/s who think it is absolutely unfair as well. Foreigners getting seeds in GSL is racist then? Correct if I am wrong.
I think what he did is obviously wrong, but the point I am trying to make is what damage did he do? Compared to maphackers that simply taking money that they have not worked for. Did DA hurt anyone personally, sure I met talked and played him on bn and he probably isnt the friendliest guy, but he had a solid reason which is money.
In my opinion something like this can only be allowed once, he does not deserve to eternally banned like for example spades.
He is also simply taking money from other people? He takes viewers away from other people by having her acknowledged for something she isn't. He is also taking away customers from real coaches who actually knows the game rather than her who cheated her way to being accepted.
Also your other arguments is a completely different story and has no relation to what we're arguing here. I can understand why people don'tlike direct seeds into GSL and stuff, but it has nothing to do with this.
Your points are valid. I tried to bring up unfairness that clearly exists in our ecosystem at the moment, I can understand that as a competitor or upncoming/trying to go pro players are really upset due to someone getting more attention due to their sex and I think arguing whether these unfairnesses are justified is a really tricky topic.
DA plays the smallest role in this dispute since he is only playing, the majority of the problem roots from veralynn and the way this community views female gamers. Nobody would care if DA smurfed as another guy. I believe he should not be punished but not banned from these events. I really dislike the fact that people say he should kicked out completely from the community as something like that would be too severe.
What do you think would be fair for his punishment and how do you justified it relatively to cheating. Assuming cheating would be something that deserves to get banned from the community forever.
Ok so,
I'm managing Team Liquid and is very closely tied with players - inside and outside of the game. I have a lot of insights on different topics around the game and could give an advise two to people coming up. But I'm just a mid to high masters player and I can't provide the professional insight into the game as a player can and without being extremely good at StarCraft, I would not be a relevant coach or accepted by the communities. So what I do is I get TaeJa to stream as me and play some tournaments as me to make some results and get me known as a very good player too. I start doing coaching and earn bucks from that, same goes for streaming.
Do you think if t his happened that I would be able to keep my job? Do you think people would not care if it happened? I really they would
On October 06 2012 01:21 Rescawen wrote: What do you think would be fair for his punishment and how do you justified it relatively to cheating. Assuming cheating would be something that deserves to get banned from the community forever.
He committed fraud by impersonating another person for money, and stole money from other players when he participated in a girls-only tournament. But he was smart, he did this in small-time tournaments where the organizers have no real power or authority so aside from his user being banned from some website called teamliquid.net he received 0 punishment.
The big dogs who spent a whole day talking about eSports in Valencia all ignored his actions. One of the issues that was brought up in the eSports congress was the need for a global rulebook where penalties would be uniformed. His team Absolute Legends ignored his actions (I went and asked if he was still on their team and they said nothing changed and they have no comment).
Who did VeraLyn and DeathAngel rip off and deceive when they committed fraud? Us, the community. We should be the ones administering the punishment if the people who run the tournaments are too weak-hearted or incompetent to do it.
On October 06 2012 01:43 mrRoflpwn wrote: How in the world are TOP, jookto, Inca, and Vines going to show up? Do they have some kind of unannounced team?? Team Liquid maybe????
That would be badass if liquid picked up all 4 of these guys! Talk about adding depth to the roster ^^
Bumblebee, since you have a lot more knowledge about SC-buisness than 99% of the community, I would be interested in your opinions about the amout of punishment DA should get. I would certainly agree, that he should get a punishment, but I don´t think Dreamhack should be involved in this, because the we´re not involved incident, when it happened and they are an offline tourney, which eliminates the risk of him doing similar stuff in their tournament. So if you ask Dreamhack to ban him, you basically ask every SC-organisation out there, which would end his career. I think a punishment should stay between Deathangel and the parties, he cheated on.
God, this is like kinder garden sometimes here. You cheated with hide and seek, you can play no more. The cheat-police banned you from everything and screw the laws. Did Deathangel committed a crime? Maybe, i dont know and i dont care, im not involved but did anyone do something with it? Probably not when you know this community, even if they did it's not a reason to exclude you from a unrelated open event or does DH has rules on paper when your convicted for something that you cant enter? Well no DH's for me then i guess, not that i ever wanted to visit a event anyway.
But im not even going to try anymore on this topic and i dont know what i was thinking in the first place to even try. A normal discussions with people here on other topics as SC2 is almost impossible anyway.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
It's not over the line. It's something people get very very big fines for if it reaches a certain level and can get jailed for as well. It's very simple, it's fraud.
Well if you argue this way then our community is sexist for letting these women get extra attention due to the attention they get. I personally am of the opinion that is it just fine, but I have a friend/s who think it is absolutely unfair as well. Foreigners getting seeds in GSL is racist then? Correct if I am wrong.
I think what he did is obviously wrong, but the point I am trying to make is what damage did he do? Compared to maphackers that simply taking money that they have not worked for. Did DA hurt anyone personally, sure I met talked and played him on bn and he probably isnt the friendliest guy, but he had a solid reason which is money.
In my opinion something like this can only be allowed once, he does not deserve to eternally banned like for example spades.
He is also simply taking money from other people? He takes viewers away from other people by having her acknowledged for something she isn't. He is also taking away customers from real coaches who actually knows the game rather than her who cheated her way to being accepted.
Also your other arguments is a completely different story and has no relation to what we're arguing here. I can understand why people don'tlike direct seeds into GSL and stuff, but it has nothing to do with this.
Your points are valid. I tried to bring up unfairness that clearly exists in our ecosystem at the moment, I can understand that as a competitor or upncoming/trying to go pro players are really upset due to someone getting more attention due to their sex and I think arguing whether these unfairnesses are justified is a really tricky topic.
DA plays the smallest role in this dispute since he is only playing, the majority of the problem roots from veralynn and the way this community views female gamers. Nobody would care if DA smurfed as another guy. I believe he should not be punished but not banned from these events. I really dislike the fact that people say he should kicked out completely from the community as something like that would be too severe.
What do you think would be fair for his punishment and how do you justified it relatively to cheating. Assuming cheating would be something that deserves to get banned from the community forever.
Ok so,
I'm managing Team Liquid and is very closely tied with players - inside and outside of the game. I have a lot of insights on different topics around the game and could give an advise two to people coming up. But I'm just a mid to high masters player and I can't provide the professional insight into the game as a player can and without being extremely good at StarCraft, I would not be a relevant coach or accepted by the communities. So what I do is I get TaeJa to stream as me and play some tournaments as me to make some results and get me known as a very good player too. I start doing coaching and earn bucks from that, same goes for streaming.
Do you think if t his happened that I would be able to keep my job? Do you think people would not care if it happened? I really they would
As I pointed out your point is valid and are you implying DA should get fired from his job or banned from sc2 for life?
off-topic: Are you also saying that your higher on ladder than apollo as random? Mid high masters is like 800p in the current ladder. Also I sat next to taeja in DH i could easily bust you cauz i know his english isnt very gosu :D
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
It's not over the line. It's something people get very very big fines for if it reaches a certain level and can get jailed for as well. It's very simple, it's fraud.
Well if you argue this way then our community is sexist for letting these women get extra attention due to the attention they get. I personally am of the opinion that is it just fine, but I have a friend/s who think it is absolutely unfair as well. Foreigners getting seeds in GSL is racist then? Correct if I am wrong.
I think what he did is obviously wrong, but the point I am trying to make is what damage did he do? Compared to maphackers that simply taking money that they have not worked for. Did DA hurt anyone personally, sure I met talked and played him on bn and he probably isnt the friendliest guy, but he had a solid reason which is money.
In my opinion something like this can only be allowed once, he does not deserve to eternally banned like for example spades.
He is also simply taking money from other people? He takes viewers away from other people by having her acknowledged for something she isn't. He is also taking away customers from real coaches who actually knows the game rather than her who cheated her way to being accepted.
Also your other arguments is a completely different story and has no relation to what we're arguing here. I can understand why people don'tlike direct seeds into GSL and stuff, but it has nothing to do with this.
Your points are valid. I tried to bring up unfairness that clearly exists in our ecosystem at the moment, I can understand that as a competitor or upncoming/trying to go pro players are really upset due to someone getting more attention due to their sex and I think arguing whether these unfairnesses are justified is a really tricky topic.
DA plays the smallest role in this dispute since he is only playing, the majority of the problem roots from veralynn and the way this community views female gamers. Nobody would care if DA smurfed as another guy. I believe he should not be punished but not banned from these events. I really dislike the fact that people say he should kicked out completely from the community as something like that would be too severe.
What do you think would be fair for his punishment and how do you justified it relatively to cheating. Assuming cheating would be something that deserves to get banned from the community forever.
Ok so,
I'm managing Team Liquid and is very closely tied with players - inside and outside of the game. I have a lot of insights on different topics around the game and could give an advise two to people coming up. But I'm just a mid to high masters player and I can't provide the professional insight into the game as a player can and without being extremely good at StarCraft, I would not be a relevant coach or accepted by the communities. So what I do is I get TaeJa to stream as me and play some tournaments as me to make some results and get me known as a very good player too. I start doing coaching and earn bucks from that, same goes for streaming.
Do you think if t his happened that I would be able to keep my job? Do you think people would not care if it happened? I really they would
I wish ppl would talk about deathangel-veralynn in the dedicated thread.... I for one am very exited about this event and will definitely attend. All this talk about the fraud incident is bringing a negative vibe to the tournament when it actualy has nothing to do with Dreamhack.
on topic, I was hoping Sea would attend. Could have been a good tournament for him to start in sc2.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
It's not over the line. It's something people get very very big fines for if it reaches a certain level and can get jailed for as well. It's very simple, it's fraud.
Well if you argue this way then our community is sexist for letting these women get extra attention due to the attention they get. I personally am of the opinion that is it just fine, but I have a friend/s who think it is absolutely unfair as well. Foreigners getting seeds in GSL is racist then? Correct if I am wrong.
I think what he did is obviously wrong, but the point I am trying to make is what damage did he do? Compared to maphackers that simply taking money that they have not worked for. Did DA hurt anyone personally, sure I met talked and played him on bn and he probably isnt the friendliest guy, but he had a solid reason which is money.
In my opinion something like this can only be allowed once, he does not deserve to eternally banned like for example spades.
He is also simply taking money from other people? He takes viewers away from other people by having her acknowledged for something she isn't. He is also taking away customers from real coaches who actually knows the game rather than her who cheated her way to being accepted.
Also your other arguments is a completely different story and has no relation to what we're arguing here. I can understand why people don'tlike direct seeds into GSL and stuff, but it has nothing to do with this.
Your points are valid. I tried to bring up unfairness that clearly exists in our ecosystem at the moment, I can understand that as a competitor or upncoming/trying to go pro players are really upset due to someone getting more attention due to their sex and I think arguing whether these unfairnesses are justified is a really tricky topic.
DA plays the smallest role in this dispute since he is only playing, the majority of the problem roots from veralynn and the way this community views female gamers. Nobody would care if DA smurfed as another guy. I believe he should not be punished but not banned from these events. I really dislike the fact that people say he should kicked out completely from the community as something like that would be too severe.
What do you think would be fair for his punishment and how do you justified it relatively to cheating. Assuming cheating would be something that deserves to get banned from the community forever.
Ok so,
I'm managing Team Liquid and is very closely tied with players - inside and outside of the game. I have a lot of insights on different topics around the game and could give an advise two to people coming up. But I'm just a mid to high masters player and I can't provide the professional insight into the game as a player can and without being extremely good at StarCraft, I would not be a relevant coach or accepted by the communities. So what I do is I get TaeJa to stream as me and play some tournaments as me to make some results and get me known as a very good player too. I start doing coaching and earn bucks from that, same goes for streaming.
Do you think if t his happened that I would be able to keep my job? Do you think people would not care if it happened? I really they would
On October 06 2012 02:20 trekala wrote: I wish ppl would talk about deathangel-veralynn in the dedicated thread.... I for one am very exited about this event and will definitely attend. All this talk about the fraud incident is bringing a negative vibe to the tournament when it actualy has nothing to do with Dreamhack.
on topic, I was hoping Sea would attend. Could have been a good tournament for him to start in sc2.
Nothing to do with Dreamhack? Except for everything involving the fact that a player who committed fraud was invited to the tournament.
If you're going to defend your countryman at least have reasoning that stands on its own...
On October 06 2012 02:20 trekala wrote: I wish ppl would talk about deathangel-veralynn in the dedicated thread.... I for one am very exited about this event and will definitely attend. All this talk about the fraud incident is bringing a negative vibe to the tournament when it actualy has nothing to do with Dreamhack.
on topic, I was hoping Sea would attend. Could have been a good tournament for him to start in sc2.
Nothing to do with Dreamhack? Except for everything involving the fact that a player who committed fraud was invited to the tournament.
If you're going to defend your countryman at least have reasoning that stands on its own...
He was not invited, it is an open tournament with first 64 guys, who sign up, being able to play. Dreamhack does´nt invite players.
On October 06 2012 00:21 Mackus wrote: DeathAngel, really Dreamhack?
I mean, really? Why don't you invite Spades while you're at it?
Invite? really?
It's a open and DeathAngel can enter if he wants to, DH has no legal rights to deny DeathAngel from entering.
Yes they can. DeathAngel has no special rights to enter. You can deny anyone access if you please.
On top of that DeathAngel has been involved in cheating/fraud, wahtever you wanna call it. Of course they have reason to deny him access.
calling it cheating is really serious and over the line. He is just trying to make some money to live for the passion of the game. It is so difficult for him to get noticed. I think there is big difference for what he did and what spades did for example. I do respect DH for not banning him and giving him another chance.
Cheating and smurfing is fundamentally different. So many people level accs and so many ppl troll lower leagues, should they be punished too?
Just because stephano and taeja seem to earning money doesnt mean anyone else is getting a cent.
It's not over the line. It's something people get very very big fines for if it reaches a certain level and can get jailed for as well. It's very simple, it's fraud.
Well if you argue this way then our community is sexist for letting these women get extra attention due to the attention they get. I personally am of the opinion that is it just fine, but I have a friend/s who think it is absolutely unfair as well. Foreigners getting seeds in GSL is racist then? Correct if I am wrong.
I think what he did is obviously wrong, but the point I am trying to make is what damage did he do? Compared to maphackers that simply taking money that they have not worked for. Did DA hurt anyone personally, sure I met talked and played him on bn and he probably isnt the friendliest guy, but he had a solid reason which is money.
In my opinion something like this can only be allowed once, he does not deserve to eternally banned like for example spades.
He is also simply taking money from other people? He takes viewers away from other people by having her acknowledged for something she isn't. He is also taking away customers from real coaches who actually knows the game rather than her who cheated her way to being accepted.
Also your other arguments is a completely different story and has no relation to what we're arguing here. I can understand why people don'tlike direct seeds into GSL and stuff, but it has nothing to do with this.
Your points are valid. I tried to bring up unfairness that clearly exists in our ecosystem at the moment, I can understand that as a competitor or upncoming/trying to go pro players are really upset due to someone getting more attention due to their sex and I think arguing whether these unfairnesses are justified is a really tricky topic.
DA plays the smallest role in this dispute since he is only playing, the majority of the problem roots from veralynn and the way this community views female gamers. Nobody would care if DA smurfed as another guy. I believe he should not be punished but not banned from these events. I really dislike the fact that people say he should kicked out completely from the community as something like that would be too severe.
What do you think would be fair for his punishment and how do you justified it relatively to cheating. Assuming cheating would be something that deserves to get banned from the community forever.
Ok so,
I'm managing Team Liquid and is very closely tied with players - inside and outside of the game. I have a lot of insights on different topics around the game and could give an advise two to people coming up. But I'm just a mid to high masters player and I can't provide the professional insight into the game as a player can and without being extremely good at StarCraft, I would not be a relevant coach or accepted by the communities. So what I do is I get TaeJa to stream as me and play some tournaments as me to make some results and get me known as a very good player too. I start doing coaching and earn bucks from that, same goes for streaming.
Do you think if t his happened that I would be able to keep my job? Do you think people would not care if it happened? I really they would
As I pointed out your point is valid and are you implying DA should get fired from his job or banned from sc2 for life?
off-topic: Are you also saying that your higher on ladder than apollo as random? Mid high masters is like 800p in the current ladder. Also I sat next to taeja in DH i could easily bust you cauz i know his english isnt very gosu :D
He should be banned from SC2 indefinitely as Savior was. Such incidents only go aginst growing our loved esport. What should sponsors think when they couldn't be even sure if this online tourney or that online qualifier was played by the player who signed up?
It's definitely not OK to cheat and commit fraud and he should be banned from events like these if for nothing else than serving as example that this behavior won't be tolerated and so people will think twice before trying that again (just like crimes in RL).
^Jnd are you actually comparing the match fixing that savior did in an official tournament with fake nicking in showmatches?
On October 06 2012 02:33 CuteZergling wrote: This thread has been strange to read. It's weird to me that people would defend fraud.
no one has the authority to actually do something to DeathAngel for his shenanigans, he will be in all EU tournaments in the future as well. I suppose kennygyt gave him a permaban on the forum but that's pretty much it
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
On October 06 2012 02:33 CuteZergling wrote: This thread has been strange to read. It's weird to me that people would defend fraud.
no one has the authority to actually do something to DeathAngel for his shenanigans, he will be in all EU tournaments in the future as well. I suppose kennygyt gave him a permaban on the forum but that's pretty much it
You'd atleast think Tournament organisers would have the dignity to suspend them, if this were a Korean player I'm pretty sure ESF or Kespa would disown them.
I can't believe there's people within this game who defend players who go against the law and commit a criminal act, I'm gonna sound pretty blunt but they're as scum as the ones who commit the offence and that they're allowed to freely mouth off their stupid biased opinions actually hurts the scene
On October 06 2012 02:20 trekala wrote: I wish ppl would talk about deathangel-veralynn in the dedicated thread.... I for one am very exited about this event and will definitely attend. All this talk about the fraud incident is bringing a negative vibe to the tournament when it actualy has nothing to do with Dreamhack.
on topic, I was hoping Sea would attend. Could have been a good tournament for him to start in sc2.
Nothing to do with Dreamhack? Except for everything involving the fact that a player who committed fraud was invited to the tournament.
If you're going to defend your countryman at least have reasoning that stands on its own...
He was not invited, it is an open tournament with first 64 guys, who sign up, being able to play. Dreamhack does´nt invite players.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
I doubt coaches don't pay taxes. That is actually retarded, these teams have a lot of money (thinking of EG right now since we're talking IdrA) and if they are paying their employees (the players) under the table and it gets found out they get fucked by the government. I doubt that the team managers are dumb enough to leave themselves open by allowing their players to earn an untaxed income.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
On October 06 2012 02:49 Kabras wrote: Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
On October 06 2012 02:56 CubEdIn wrote: I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
This thread is taking a turn for the worst. It is pretty unfortunate that you two don't know any of the details about the subject when your countryman committed fraud.
And let's try to keep other player's name out of this, especially listing players who never cheated together with players who admitted to frauding and or hacking.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
No but if you don't apply for self-employment you don't receive a pension.
Money doesn't come free, stop talking about what you don't know.
Everyone deserves a second chance, however this is based on if the culprit shows a sincere apology which was not the case considering no statement was produced. End of story.
On October 06 2012 02:20 trekala wrote: I wish ppl would talk about deathangel-veralynn in the dedicated thread.... I for one am very exited about this event and will definitely attend. All this talk about the fraud incident is bringing a negative vibe to the tournament when it actualy has nothing to do with Dreamhack.
on topic, I was hoping Sea would attend. Could have been a good tournament for him to start in sc2.
Nothing to do with Dreamhack? Except for everything involving the fact that a player who committed fraud was invited to the tournament.
If you're going to defend your countryman at least have reasoning that stands on its own...
He was not invited, it is an open tournament with first 64 guys, who sign up, being able to play. Dreamhack does´nt invite players.
He's still in the tournament, invited or not.
Because he signed up. There is a big difference in inviting someone and him being tolerated. The former would seem wrong so short after, the ladder does´nt, considering the incident has nothing to do with Dreamhack.
On October 06 2012 02:20 trekala wrote: I wish ppl would talk about deathangel-veralynn in the dedicated thread.... I for one am very exited about this event and will definitely attend. All this talk about the fraud incident is bringing a negative vibe to the tournament when it actualy has nothing to do with Dreamhack.
on topic, I was hoping Sea would attend. Could have been a good tournament for him to start in sc2.
Nothing to do with Dreamhack? Except for everything involving the fact that a player who committed fraud was invited to the tournament.
If you're going to defend your countryman at least have reasoning that stands on its own...
He was not invited, it is an open tournament with first 64 guys, who sign up, being able to play. Dreamhack does´nt invite players.
He's still in the tournament, invited or not.
Because he signed up. There is a big difference in inviting someone and him being tolerated. The former would seem wrong so short after, the ladder does´nt, considering the incident has nothing to do with Dreamhack.
The thing is, Dreamhack should do something about it, or at least release a statement acknowledging that they're letting him in the tournament. By saying nothing and letting him play it's as if they're just ignoring the fact that he committed serious acts of fraud. I'd have a lot more respect for DH if they at least said "yeah we know he's a scumbag, but we're still going to let him play."
He shouldn't be allowed to play, but that's just my opinion.
DeathAngel should not be allowed to participate in this tournament seriously... DreamHack should definitely NOT be forgiving about this. Not so soon at the least...
On October 06 2012 02:20 trekala wrote: I wish ppl would talk about deathangel-veralynn in the dedicated thread.... I for one am very exited about this event and will definitely attend. All this talk about the fraud incident is bringing a negative vibe to the tournament when it actualy has nothing to do with Dreamhack.
on topic, I was hoping Sea would attend. Could have been a good tournament for him to start in sc2.
Nothing to do with Dreamhack? Except for everything involving the fact that a player who committed fraud was invited to the tournament.
If you're going to defend your countryman at least have reasoning that stands on its own...
He was not invited, it is an open tournament with first 64 guys, who sign up, being able to play. Dreamhack does´nt invite players.
He's still in the tournament, invited or not.
Because he signed up. There is a big difference in inviting someone and him being tolerated. The former would seem wrong so short after, the ladder does´nt, considering the incident has nothing to do with Dreamhack.
The thing is, Dreamhack should do something about it, or at least release a statement acknowledging that they're letting him in the tournament. By saying nothing and letting him play it's as if they're just ignoring the fact that he committed serious acts of fraud. I'd have a lot more respect for DH if they at least said "yeah we know he's a scumbag, but we're still going to let him play."
He shouldn't be allowed to play, but that's just my opinion.
I think that just increases the unneccessary drama. When Dreamhack accepted his signing, they accepted him as a player, not as a negative community figure, that draws attention. The whole thing should get solved (with punishment) between DA and the organisations, which hosted the matches, in which he betrayed, there is already enough drama in the community.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
No but if you don't apply for self-employment you don't receive a pension.
Money doesn't come free, stop talking about what you don't know.
I'm sorry what? Stop talking about what you don't know? I've been self-employed for 7 years, yeah, I know what I'm talking about.
I was NOT talking about being an esports player, and declaring those money, I'm talking about getting 20eur on paypal or whatever verilynn got (I think it was what, 4-5 payments of 20-ish eur?). That is clearly undeclared money that you pay no tax for. Maybe "TRUE" coaches, that actually spend a lot of hours/day doing it and have no other source of income DO declare this type of income, but let's be honest, overall, if 10% do pay taxes for coaching I'd be surprised.
And I'm sorry you think I'm taking his side, I really am not. But you're ACTUALLY talking about JAIL, are you serious? For someone sending you 20eur for teaching him? And she did teach them, it's practically THEIR fault for believing she was actually good. YES, it is fraud, but really? JAIL? Are you serious?
Again, I'm not condoning anything, I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying you MIGHT be overreacting. And even if he did win money he shouldn't have, it really has very little to do with DreamHack since it wasn't really cheating or anything game-related. He won his matches fair and square, no matter what ID he was using. The coaching part = very unfair, I agree, but the games were real and he won them based on his own skill, nothing else, so why be denied access to DreamHack? Because you're jealous you can't get to that level? Please.
On October 06 2012 02:43 Manimal_pro wrote: ^Jnd are you actually comparing the match fixing that savior did in an official tournament with fake nicking in showmatches?
On October 06 2012 02:33 CuteZergling wrote: This thread has been strange to read. It's weird to me that people would defend fraud.
no one has the authority to actually do something to DeathAngel for his shenanigans, he will be in all EU tournaments in the future as well. I suppose kennygyt gave him a permaban on the forum but that's pretty much it
No one has the authority? lolwut? Unless you can find a country whose constitution states "Every citizen has an inalienable right to compete in video game tournaments," and you find a country where the Federal Constitution applies to privately owned businesses (i.e. in America, Freedom of Speech doesn't apply to privately owned companies. They can fire you for speaking about the latest episode of South Park if they want), everyone has authority.
Fraud was committed. One dumb girl had a dumb pro player impersonate her in showmatches against legit players and all-girl tourneys and other stuff, then passed those achievements off as her own to get bookings as a coach that she had no right doing. Every tournament can and should ban these two from competing. If serious organizations can ban players, and we want ESPORTS to be more professional, then it only follows that ESPORTS tournaments can ban players.
Other than that, really interested about the oGs guys! I've missed them.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
No but if you don't apply for self-employment you don't receive a pension.
Money doesn't come free, stop talking about what you don't know.
I'm sorry what? Stop talking about what you don't know? I've been self-employed for 7 years, yeah, I know what I'm talking about.
I was NOT talking about being an esports player, and declaring those money, I'm talking about getting 20eur on paypal or whatever verilynn got (I think it was what, 4-5 payments of 20-ish eur?). That is clearly undeclared money that you pay no tax for. Maybe "TRUE" coaches, that actually spend a lot of hours/day doing it and have no other source of income DO declare this type of income, but let's be honest, overall, if 10% do pay taxes for coaching I'd be surprised.
And I'm sorry you think I'm taking his side, I really am not. But you're ACTUALLY talking about JAIL, are you serious? For someone sending you 20eur for teaching him? And she did teach them, it's practically THEIR fault for believing she was actually good. YES, it is fraud, but really? JAIL? Are you serious?
Again, I'm not condoning anything, I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying you MIGHT be overreacting. And even if he did win money he shouldn't have, it really has very little to do with DreamHack since it wasn't really cheating or anything game-related. He won his matches fair and square, no matter what ID he was using. The coaching part = very unfair, I agree, but the games were real and he won them based on his own skill, nothing else, so why be denied access to DreamHack? Because you're jealous you can't get to that level? Please.
Fraud:
i) a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain
Identity Fraud:
i) Identity fraud is unlawful identity change of another person as a principal tool of merchandise procurement. ii) Identity fraud can occur without identity theft, as in the case where the fraudster has been given someone's identity information when the person whose identity is being used is colluding with the person committing the fraud.
How can you even dispute that is amazing
The fact you said he won his matches fair and square although he participated in a Female-only tournament shows how little you know about the whole thing or is just completely deluded
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
No but if you don't apply for self-employment you don't receive a pension.
Money doesn't come free, stop talking about what you don't know.
I'm sorry what? Stop talking about what you don't know? I've been self-employed for 7 years, yeah, I know what I'm talking about.
I was NOT talking about being an esports player, and declaring those money, I'm talking about getting 20eur on paypal or whatever verilynn got (I think it was what, 4-5 payments of 20-ish eur?). That is clearly undeclared money that you pay no tax for. Maybe "TRUE" coaches, that actually spend a lot of hours/day doing it and have no other source of income DO declare this type of income, but let's be honest, overall, if 10% do pay taxes for coaching I'd be surprised.
And I'm sorry you think I'm taking his side, I really am not. But you're ACTUALLY talking about JAIL, are you serious? For someone sending you 20eur for teaching him? And she did teach them, it's practically THEIR fault for believing she was actually good. YES, it is fraud, but really? JAIL? Are you serious?
Again, I'm not condoning anything, I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying you MIGHT be overreacting. And even if he did win money he shouldn't have, it really has very little to do with DreamHack since it wasn't really cheating or anything game-related. He won his matches fair and square, no matter what ID he was using. The coaching part = very unfair, I agree, but the games were real and he won them based on his own skill, nothing else, so why be denied access to DreamHack? Because you're jealous you can't get to that level? Please.
Hm. So apparently it's fair and square if I have Steve Jobs participate in a high school business tournament for me, as long as he did it himself without cheating? I think you're getting something wrong there.
I don't know too much about how tournament organizers think or how EU law works or anything, but it's gonna be hard to root for him, especially after that terrible, terrible reasoning he posted on the thread.
Kind of why I think we need a international governing body, like how it works with track and field, swimming, etc.
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
No but if you don't apply for self-employment you don't receive a pension.
Money doesn't come free, stop talking about what you don't know.
I'm sorry what? Stop talking about what you don't know? I've been self-employed for 7 years, yeah, I know what I'm talking about.
I was NOT talking about being an esports player, and declaring those money, I'm talking about getting 20eur on paypal or whatever verilynn got (I think it was what, 4-5 payments of 20-ish eur?). That is clearly undeclared money that you pay no tax for. Maybe "TRUE" coaches, that actually spend a lot of hours/day doing it and have no other source of income DO declare this type of income, but let's be honest, overall, if 10% do pay taxes for coaching I'd be surprised.
And I'm sorry you think I'm taking his side, I really am not. But you're ACTUALLY talking about JAIL, are you serious? For someone sending you 20eur for teaching him? And she did teach them, it's practically THEIR fault for believing she was actually good. YES, it is fraud, but really? JAIL? Are you serious?
Again, I'm not condoning anything, I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying you MIGHT be overreacting. And even if he did win money he shouldn't have, it really has very little to do with DreamHack since it wasn't really cheating or anything game-related. He won his matches fair and square, no matter what ID he was using. The coaching part = very unfair, I agree, but the games were real and he won them based on his own skill, nothing else, so why be denied access to DreamHack? Because you're jealous you can't get to that level? Please.
Hm. So apparently it's fair and square if I have Steve Jobs participate in a high school business tournament for me, as long as he did it himself without cheating? I think you're getting something wrong there.
I don't know too much about how tournament organizers think or how EU law works or anything, but it's gonna be hard to root for him, especially after that terrible, terrible reasoning he posted on the thread.
Kind of why I think we need a international governing body, like how it works with track and field, swimming, etc.
This is a surprisingly good analogy. If you can get mr. Jobs to do that for you than you totally should though.
Player list even worse than usual for Dreamhacks, that's too bad. Should be a great tournament anyway as Dreamhack always puts on a great show. Expecting Stephano to go to ze bank on this one, Nerchio also a heavy favorite.
On October 06 2012 00:52 Bumblebee wrote: [quote] Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
No but if you don't apply for self-employment you don't receive a pension.
Money doesn't come free, stop talking about what you don't know.
I'm sorry what? Stop talking about what you don't know? I've been self-employed for 7 years, yeah, I know what I'm talking about.
I was NOT talking about being an esports player, and declaring those money, I'm talking about getting 20eur on paypal or whatever verilynn got (I think it was what, 4-5 payments of 20-ish eur?). That is clearly undeclared money that you pay no tax for. Maybe "TRUE" coaches, that actually spend a lot of hours/day doing it and have no other source of income DO declare this type of income, but let's be honest, overall, if 10% do pay taxes for coaching I'd be surprised.
And I'm sorry you think I'm taking his side, I really am not. But you're ACTUALLY talking about JAIL, are you serious? For someone sending you 20eur for teaching him? And she did teach them, it's practically THEIR fault for believing she was actually good. YES, it is fraud, but really? JAIL? Are you serious?
Again, I'm not condoning anything, I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying you MIGHT be overreacting. And even if he did win money he shouldn't have, it really has very little to do with DreamHack since it wasn't really cheating or anything game-related. He won his matches fair and square, no matter what ID he was using. The coaching part = very unfair, I agree, but the games were real and he won them based on his own skill, nothing else, so why be denied access to DreamHack? Because you're jealous you can't get to that level? Please.
Hm. So apparently it's fair and square if I have Steve Jobs participate in a high school business tournament for me, as long as he did it himself without cheating? I think you're getting something wrong there.
I don't know too much about how tournament organizers think or how EU law works or anything, but it's gonna be hard to root for him, especially after that terrible, terrible reasoning he posted on the thread.
Kind of why I think we need a international governing body, like how it works with track and field, swimming, etc.
This is a surprisingly good analogy. If you can get mr. Jobs to do that for you than you totally should though.
It'd be an impressive feat, especially cause he's currently dead.
On October 06 2012 05:04 Dodgin wrote: Player list even worse than usual for Dreamhacks, that's too bad. Should be a great tournament anyway as Dreamhack always puts on a great show. Expecting Stephano to go to ze bank on this one, Nerchio also a heavy favorite.
Should have sent Liquid'Sea!
You fool, it's all about the ex-oGs guys this tournament! Seriously though, I imagine those can put up quite a fight, and I'd LOVE it if TOP brought out his nun-chuck skills to Bucharest! :D
On October 06 2012 05:04 Dodgin wrote: Player list even worse than usual for Dreamhacks, that's too bad. Should be a great tournament anyway as Dreamhack always puts on a great show. Expecting Stephano to go to ze bank on this one, Nerchio also a heavy favorite.
Should have sent Liquid'Sea!
You fool, it's all about the ex-oGs guys this tournament! Seriously though, I imagine those can put up quite a fight, and I'd LOVE it if TOP brought out his nun-chuck skills to Bucharest! :D
Admittedly I have no idea what the current form of TOP, Inca and Jookto is, but I imagine they are not Code S level competitors. It will be interesting to see how they do.
On October 06 2012 05:04 Dodgin wrote: Player list even worse than usual for Dreamhacks, that's too bad. Should be a great tournament anyway as Dreamhack always puts on a great show. Expecting Stephano to go to ze bank on this one, Nerchio also a heavy favorite.
Should have sent Liquid'Sea!
You fool, it's all about the ex-oGs guys this tournament! Seriously though, I imagine those can put up quite a fight, and I'd LOVE it if TOP brought out his nun-chuck skills to Bucharest! :D
Admittedly I have no idea what the current form of TOP, Inca and Jookto is, but I imagine they are not Code S level competitors. It will be interesting to see how they do.
they're still koreans
I'm sure at least one of them will get to the prize stage with ease
On October 06 2012 00:50 Putty wrote: Even if they can ban him, why do that ? He don't have maphacked or cheated in any way. He just did a little, funny scam.
Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
No but if you don't apply for self-employment you don't receive a pension.
Money doesn't come free, stop talking about what you don't know.
I'm sorry what? Stop talking about what you don't know? I've been self-employed for 7 years, yeah, I know what I'm talking about.
I was NOT talking about being an esports player, and declaring those money, I'm talking about getting 20eur on paypal or whatever verilynn got (I think it was what, 4-5 payments of 20-ish eur?). That is clearly undeclared money that you pay no tax for. Maybe "TRUE" coaches, that actually spend a lot of hours/day doing it and have no other source of income DO declare this type of income, but let's be honest, overall, if 10% do pay taxes for coaching I'd be surprised.
And I'm sorry you think I'm taking his side, I really am not. But you're ACTUALLY talking about JAIL, are you serious? For someone sending you 20eur for teaching him? And she did teach them, it's practically THEIR fault for believing she was actually good. YES, it is fraud, but really? JAIL? Are you serious?
Again, I'm not condoning anything, I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying you MIGHT be overreacting. And even if he did win money he shouldn't have, it really has very little to do with DreamHack since it wasn't really cheating or anything game-related. He won his matches fair and square, no matter what ID he was using. The coaching part = very unfair, I agree, but the games were real and he won them based on his own skill, nothing else, so why be denied access to DreamHack? Because you're jealous you can't get to that level? Please.
Hm. So apparently it's fair and square if I have Steve Jobs participate in a high school business tournament for me, as long as he did it himself without cheating? I think you're getting something wrong there.
I don't know too much about how tournament organizers think or how EU law works or anything, but it's gonna be hard to root for him, especially after that terrible, terrible reasoning he posted on the thread.
Kind of why I think we need a international governing body, like how it works with track and field, swimming, etc.
So you are honestly saying that the skill difference between DeathAngel and someone like.. Sjow is the same as the one between Steve jobs and kids in school? Over-dramatizing much? Also, why was Sjow invited, Veralynn invited and DeathAngel was not? Because he was simply not as popular, it wasn't because he was in a totally different league.
And you are saying that DeathAngel is guilty of Identity Fraud, yet he is not the one who charged for coaching (as far as I know, please disregard if there is evidence to the contrary). So technically, DeathAngel is only guilty of participating in tournaments under someone else's name. Not taking money from anyone (again, as far as I've seen, there's no evidence that sustains that).
And you are honestly saying that playing under a different name is basically grounds for jail time? Ridiculous! Get him banned from DreamHack? Under what basis, that he played under a different nick? I'm sure no other pro-gamers do that. Or it's fine as long as nobody gets caught.
You want to convince me, it's easy, tell me what DeathAngel did, related to the actual game, that would warrant him being banned from DreamHack. Spoofing? That's it? As long as there's no evidence that he actually got money from it, then he's fine to play. If he did make money off it, then it's up to the hosts at DH, no?
Would people please stop talking about DeathAngel in this thread?
The thing is, he did something wrong and should be punished for it, but nobody has done anything and it is not on DreamHack's shoulders to come on a white stallion and hand out punishment to him. An instance above tournament arrangers is needed for that to happen.
On October 05 2012 23:44 Perchloric wrote: I can't believe DeathAngelwas invited.
honestly how can you blame deathangel though? The economy in sc2 is shit, even if you're a top player you don't make much because you're not marketable or not famous yet. Given the statement of how much he made by powerleveling veralynn, who would say no, especially when no one really knows you and you can't make a decent salary at all.
On October 05 2012 23:44 Perchloric wrote: I can't believe DeathAngelwas invited.
honestly how can you blame deathangel though? The economy in sc2 is shit, even if you're a top player you don't make much because you're not marketable or not famous yet. Given the statement of how much he made by powerleveling veralynn, who would say no, especially when no one really knows you and you can't make a decent salary at all.
Easy, there are many worse (male) players than DeathAngel that make much more than him. Incontrol, Suppy, MaxiumusBlack, and Destiny are not as good as DeathAngel but have spent more time making themselves into marketable personalities. Before the scandal DeathAngel didn't have any more personality than a random Korean, but he still blamed reverse sexism which is a bullshit excuse.
On October 05 2012 23:58 desRow wrote: it's kinda weird how no tournaments are banning him and his team didn't release any statement. I don't hate the guy but it seems odd =/
Stop the drama
On October 06 2012 03:27 HonorZ wrote: DeathAngel should not be allowed to participate in this tournament seriously... DreamHack should definitely NOT be forgiving about this. Not so soon at the least...
Because DeathAngel commited fraud to Dreamhack.
Good luck all Romanians. I hope Darkthron/Deathangel/NightEnD will do well.
On October 05 2012 23:44 Perchloric wrote: I can't believe DeathAngelwas invited.
honestly how can you blame deathangel though? The economy in sc2 is shit, even if you're a top player you don't make much because you're not marketable or not famous yet. Given the statement of how much he made by powerleveling veralynn, who would say no, especially when no one really knows you and you can't make a decent salary at all.
the account leveling is one thing, but playing showmatches as her is fucked up. i dont care what the economy of sc2 is. there are 100s of other unknowns that dont do that shit.
On October 05 2012 23:44 Perchloric wrote: I can't believe DeathAngelwas invited.
honestly how can you blame deathangel though? The economy in sc2 is shit, even if you're a top player you don't make much because you're not marketable or not famous yet. Given the statement of how much he made by powerleveling veralynn, who would say no, especially when no one really knows you and you can't make a decent salary at all.
the account leveling is one thing, but playing showmatches as her is fucked up. i dont care what the economy of sc2 is. there are 100s of other unknowns that dont do that shit.
well how do you know that? and however fucked playing showmatches as her is, it's better than earning less than $50/month....
On October 06 2012 10:45 jalstar wrote: TOP and Inca were the first Koreans to ever go to a foreign tournament at DH Winter 2010, nice to see them back at Dreamhack.
On October 05 2012 23:44 Perchloric wrote: I can't believe DeathAngelwas invited.
honestly how can you blame deathangel though? The economy in sc2 is shit, even if you're a top player you don't make much because you're not marketable or not famous yet. Given the statement of how much he made by powerleveling veralynn, who would say no, especially when no one really knows you and you can't make a decent salary at all.
Easy, there are many worse (male) players than DeathAngel that make much more than him. Incontrol, Suppy, MaxiumusBlack, and Destiny are not as good as DeathAngel but have spent more time making themselves into marketable personalities. Before the scandal DeathAngel didn't have any more personality than a random Korean, but he still blamed reverse sexism which is a bullshit excuse.
On October 06 2012 00:52 Bumblebee wrote: [quote] Are you serious? His actions put people in jail in a lot of countries. Luckily it got stopped before it became big or very very serious.
Can sb tell me what is he talking about?
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
No but if you don't apply for self-employment you don't receive a pension.
Money doesn't come free, stop talking about what you don't know.
I'm sorry what? Stop talking about what you don't know? I've been self-employed for 7 years, yeah, I know what I'm talking about.
I was NOT talking about being an esports player, and declaring those money, I'm talking about getting 20eur on paypal or whatever verilynn got (I think it was what, 4-5 payments of 20-ish eur?). That is clearly undeclared money that you pay no tax for. Maybe "TRUE" coaches, that actually spend a lot of hours/day doing it and have no other source of income DO declare this type of income, but let's be honest, overall, if 10% do pay taxes for coaching I'd be surprised.
And I'm sorry you think I'm taking his side, I really am not. But you're ACTUALLY talking about JAIL, are you serious? For someone sending you 20eur for teaching him? And she did teach them, it's practically THEIR fault for believing she was actually good. YES, it is fraud, but really? JAIL? Are you serious?
Again, I'm not condoning anything, I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying you MIGHT be overreacting. And even if he did win money he shouldn't have, it really has very little to do with DreamHack since it wasn't really cheating or anything game-related. He won his matches fair and square, no matter what ID he was using. The coaching part = very unfair, I agree, but the games were real and he won them based on his own skill, nothing else, so why be denied access to DreamHack? Because you're jealous you can't get to that level? Please.
Hm. So apparently it's fair and square if I have Steve Jobs participate in a high school business tournament for me, as long as he did it himself without cheating? I think you're getting something wrong there.
I don't know too much about how tournament organizers think or how EU law works or anything, but it's gonna be hard to root for him, especially after that terrible, terrible reasoning he posted on the thread.
Kind of why I think we need a international governing body, like how it works with track and field, swimming, etc.
So you are honestly saying that the skill difference between DeathAngel and someone like.. Sjow is the same as the one between Steve jobs and kids in school? Over-dramatizing much? Also, why was Sjow invited, Veralynn invited and DeathAngel was not? Because he was simply not as popular, it wasn't because he was in a totally different league.
And you are saying that DeathAngel is guilty of Identity Fraud, yet he is not the one who charged for coaching (as far as I know, please disregard if there is evidence to the contrary). So technically, DeathAngel is only guilty of participating in tournaments under someone else's name. Not taking money from anyone (again, as far as I've seen, there's no evidence that sustains that).
And you are honestly saying that playing under a different name is basically grounds for jail time? Ridiculous! Get him banned from DreamHack? Under what basis, that he played under a different nick? I'm sure no other pro-gamers do that. Or it's fine as long as nobody gets caught.
You want to convince me, it's easy, tell me what DeathAngel did, related to the actual game, that would warrant him being banned from DreamHack. Spoofing? That's it? As long as there's no evidence that he actually got money from it, then he's fine to play. If he did make money off it, then it's up to the hosts at DH, no?
Calm down sir. I was talking about female tournaments with that analogy.
And I clearly said that I don't know anything about EU laws or what DH officials think. I didn't say anything about having him banned or that he should be jailed. All I said was that its just hard to root for him in the competition.
Quite honestly, I've been supportive of him since his attempt at Code A where he got to the finals. It was a little disappointing to find out that he was involved in such a fraud, and his response to it. Of course Veralynn was the mastermind, but DeathAngel knew what he was doing, and it's obviously against sportsmanship. It's not just playing under a "different ID", playing in a female-only tournament for her is obviously violating the tournament rules.
But again, I don't really know how much consequence he should get. That's why I said in the earlier post that we need a international governing body that can straighten and determine those things out without us having to quarrel and bitch over it.
DeathAngel and VeraLynn cheated with their identities with streaming and coaching. DeathAngel played on her stream without webcam saying he was her and with that gained a lot of viewers being a good-gamer girl, made money off of that and got recognized with coaching and made money off of that too. It luckily got stopped very fast.
Not to sound like a fanboy but i don't see this being such a big deal. I thought he cheated in a match, like Spades did or some shit. So he posed as as a girl on her stream? ROFL, the drama lovers on TL really put reddit to shame. Jesus, will you people loosen up a little? IdrA, Orb, Spades, Destiny and probably many others did a lot more seriously offensive crap and never had any REAL problems. On the contrary, idra and destiny got 90% of their fans only because of retarded drama. And even if he gets sued (lmao) i don't see any court taking this shit seriously, unless maybe the stream owner is the one that sues him. Have to say i'm really disappointed in TL, so much useless drama over nothing. Yea, nothing! Fuckin grow up already.
Illegally scamming money is kind of serious mr. fanboy...
I agree, but it was actually veralynn who scammed for money. And you can't count the invite tournaments as "scamming" since it wasn't an all-girl tournament or something like that. He took out seriously good players to win said money so to me, it sounds fair. The fact that VeraLynn actually decided to piggy-back and charge for coaching is pretty scummy, I totally agree with penalties for that, but I'm not sure that DA had any part of that.
Either way, throwing words like Jail and Fraud around is silly. This isn't a legalized activity, I doubt Idra or whoever else does coaching pays taxes for it, so please, let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
No but if you don't apply for self-employment you don't receive a pension.
Money doesn't come free, stop talking about what you don't know.
I'm sorry what? Stop talking about what you don't know? I've been self-employed for 7 years, yeah, I know what I'm talking about.
I was NOT talking about being an esports player, and declaring those money, I'm talking about getting 20eur on paypal or whatever verilynn got (I think it was what, 4-5 payments of 20-ish eur?). That is clearly undeclared money that you pay no tax for. Maybe "TRUE" coaches, that actually spend a lot of hours/day doing it and have no other source of income DO declare this type of income, but let's be honest, overall, if 10% do pay taxes for coaching I'd be surprised.
And I'm sorry you think I'm taking his side, I really am not. But you're ACTUALLY talking about JAIL, are you serious? For someone sending you 20eur for teaching him? And she did teach them, it's practically THEIR fault for believing she was actually good. YES, it is fraud, but really? JAIL? Are you serious?
Again, I'm not condoning anything, I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying you MIGHT be overreacting. And even if he did win money he shouldn't have, it really has very little to do with DreamHack since it wasn't really cheating or anything game-related. He won his matches fair and square, no matter what ID he was using. The coaching part = very unfair, I agree, but the games were real and he won them based on his own skill, nothing else, so why be denied access to DreamHack? Because you're jealous you can't get to that level? Please.
Hm. So apparently it's fair and square if I have Steve Jobs participate in a high school business tournament for me, as long as he did it himself without cheating? I think you're getting something wrong there.
I don't know too much about how tournament organizers think or how EU law works or anything, but it's gonna be hard to root for him, especially after that terrible, terrible reasoning he posted on the thread.
Kind of why I think we need a international governing body, like how it works with track and field, swimming, etc.
So you are honestly saying that the skill difference between DeathAngel and someone like.. Sjow is the same as the one between Steve jobs and kids in school? Over-dramatizing much? Also, why was Sjow invited, Veralynn invited and DeathAngel was not? Because he was simply not as popular, it wasn't because he was in a totally different league.
And you are saying that DeathAngel is guilty of Identity Fraud, yet he is not the one who charged for coaching (as far as I know, please disregard if there is evidence to the contrary). So technically, DeathAngel is only guilty of participating in tournaments under someone else's name. Not taking money from anyone (again, as far as I've seen, there's no evidence that sustains that).
And you are honestly saying that playing under a different name is basically grounds for jail time? Ridiculous! Get him banned from DreamHack? Under what basis, that he played under a different nick? I'm sure no other pro-gamers do that. Or it's fine as long as nobody gets caught.
You want to convince me, it's easy, tell me what DeathAngel did, related to the actual game, that would warrant him being banned from DreamHack. Spoofing? That's it? As long as there's no evidence that he actually got money from it, then he's fine to play. If he did make money off it, then it's up to the hosts at DH, no?
Calm down sir. I was talking about female tournaments with that analogy.
And I clearly said that I don't know anything about EU laws or what DH officials think. I didn't say anything about having him banned or that he should be jailed. All I said was that its just hard to root for him in the competition.
Quite honestly, I've been supportive of him since his attempt at Code A where he got to the finals. It was a little disappointing to find out that he was involved in such a fraud, and his response to it. Of course Veralynn was the mastermind, but DeathAngel knew what he was doing, and it's obviously against sportsmanship. It's not just playing under a "different ID", playing in a female-only tournament for her is obviously violating the tournament rules.
But again, I don't really know how much consequence he should get. That's why I said in the earlier post that we need a international governing body that can straighten and determine those things out without us having to quarrel and bitch over it.
Yes we need this totally otherwise every person who has cheated in the past will always come back and snake their way back in the scene, the Korean scene wouldn't stand for this and have punished foreigners for being jerks in the past - GOM and Naniwa a good example, many thought it was a non-punishable offence but GOM held firm and showed authority in strongest possible way
The return of Old Generations, such a beautiful thing to wake up to!
Hopefully Deathangel can have a decent run, guy's a pretty legit decent player. Yeah he screwed up, but the game's his job. A complete ban from tournaments for a prolonged period would likely mean he'd have to give up playing full-time, which would seem a tad harsh. That said, he does seem to have got away somewhat scot-free.
On October 05 2012 23:44 Perchloric wrote: I can't believe DeathAngelwas invited.
honestly how can you blame deathangel though? The economy in sc2 is shit, even if you're a top player you don't make much because you're not marketable or not famous yet. Given the statement of how much he made by powerleveling veralynn, who would say no, especially when no one really knows you and you can't make a decent salary at all.
the account leveling is one thing, but playing showmatches as her is fucked up. i dont care what the economy of sc2 is. there are 100s of other unknowns that dont do that shit.
well how do you know that? and however fucked playing showmatches as her is, it's better than earning less than $50/month....
no one is forcing DeathAngel to be a progamer. This is his choice. If he needs money, he shouldn't be a progamer. simple as that.
Everyone deserves a second chance imho, even savior and the other guys deserve it. like, football teams were caught matchfixing, they were just fined and lost points in their standings table, same should be for e-sports, everyone should deserve punishment but deserve a second chance
On October 06 2012 10:45 jalstar wrote: TOP and Inca were the first Koreans to ever go to a foreign tournament at DH Winter 2010, nice to see them back at Dreamhack.
On October 06 2012 10:28 johnnywup wrote:
On October 05 2012 23:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
On October 05 2012 23:44 Perchloric wrote: I can't believe DeathAngelwas invited.
honestly how can you blame deathangel though? The economy in sc2 is shit, even if you're a top player you don't make much because you're not marketable or not famous yet. Given the statement of how much he made by powerleveling veralynn, who would say no, especially when no one really knows you and you can't make a decent salary at all.
Easy, there are many worse (male) players than DeathAngel that make much more than him. Incontrol, Suppy, MaxiumusBlack, and Destiny are not as good as DeathAngel but have spent more time making themselves into marketable personalities. Before the scandal DeathAngel didn't have any more personality than a random Korean, but he still blamed reverse sexism which is a bullshit excuse.
wtf bm yo . . .
well you are definitly better than deathangel and the 3 other players he mentioned
On October 06 2012 10:45 jalstar wrote: TOP and Inca were the first Koreans to ever go to a foreign tournament at DH Winter 2010, nice to see them back at Dreamhack.
On October 06 2012 10:28 johnnywup wrote:
On October 05 2012 23:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
On October 05 2012 23:44 Perchloric wrote: I can't believe DeathAngelwas invited.
honestly how can you blame deathangel though? The economy in sc2 is shit, even if you're a top player you don't make much because you're not marketable or not famous yet. Given the statement of how much he made by powerleveling veralynn, who would say no, especially when no one really knows you and you can't make a decent salary at all.
Easy, there are many worse (male) players than DeathAngel that make much more than him. Incontrol, Suppy, MaxiumusBlack, and Destiny are not as good as DeathAngel but have spent more time making themselves into marketable personalities. Before the scandal DeathAngel didn't have any more personality than a random Korean, but he still blamed reverse sexism which is a bullshit excuse.
wtf bm yo . . .
well you are definitly better than deathangel and the 3 other players he mentioned
Yes lol. Suppy's name is so out of place here.
On topic I think this line up is awesome, lots of players I cheer for! Even Xlord, this will be fun.
On October 06 2012 10:45 jalstar wrote: TOP and Inca were the first Koreans to ever go to a foreign tournament at DH Winter 2010, nice to see them back at Dreamhack.
On October 06 2012 10:28 johnnywup wrote:
On October 05 2012 23:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
On October 05 2012 23:44 Perchloric wrote: I can't believe DeathAngelwas invited.
honestly how can you blame deathangel though? The economy in sc2 is shit, even if you're a top player you don't make much because you're not marketable or not famous yet. Given the statement of how much he made by powerleveling veralynn, who would say no, especially when no one really knows you and you can't make a decent salary at all.
Easy, there are many worse (male) players than DeathAngel that make much more than him. Incontrol, Suppy, MaxiumusBlack, and Destiny are not as good as DeathAngel but have spent more time making themselves into marketable personalities. Before the scandal DeathAngel didn't have any more personality than a random Korean, but he still blamed reverse sexism which is a bullshit excuse.
On October 06 2012 17:54 X3GoldDot wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance imho, even savior and the other guys deserve it. like, football teams were caught matchfixing, they were just fined and lost points in their standings table, same should be for e-sports, everyone should deserve punishment but deserve a second chance
Not even gonna touch that part bout Savior.
But as for football, the reason why the team is only docked points is because usually the match is only fixed by 1 guy (e.g. the coach). Banning an entire team, the other staff, the players would be hugely disproportionate. The match fixer himself usually has to serve a ban. Worldwide bans up to 6 months is not uncommon when matchfixers get caught.
On October 06 2012 17:54 X3GoldDot wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance imho, even savior and the other guys deserve it. like, football teams were caught matchfixing, they were just fined and lost points in their standings table, same should be for e-sports, everyone should deserve punishment but deserve a second chance
Not even gonna touch that part bout Savior.
But as for football, the reason why the team is only docked points is because usually the match is only fixed by 1 guy (e.g. the coach). Banning an entire team, the other staff, the players would be hugely disproportionate. The match fixer himself usually has to serve a ban. Worldwide bans up to 6 months is not uncommon when matchfixers get caught.
and when we look to the famous world series incident, the black sox were banned permanently, right? savior, etc. should not be given a second chance. and this is coming from an old mjy fan
Damn think i m gonna be there Never had the chance to attend a live e-sports event and finally this one is less then 50km from me ! Got no freaking excuse now !!
Does anyone know much about the timing and stream options for this event? Cos that player list looks pretty sick and this could tie in really well with a Barcraft me and a mate are organising on the 20th for the GSL finals (a rare occasion where my isolated time zone might actually work in our favour!).
Any one know what time this tournament runs (roughly) and if there is a half-decent quality free stream? (Or if they're giving temporary HD keys to barcrafts like IEM does?)
This is DreamHack so it is going to be a free HD stream. I didn't see a schedule yet but this is a European event so it will most likely end on midnight CET.
On October 08 2012 18:34 Noam wrote: This is DreamHack so it is going to be a free HD stream. I didn't see a schedule yet but this is a European event so it will most likely end on midnight CET.
Agreed, and this is exactly why i like european tournaments. I can watch it full without having much trouble with my own schedule. Of course this changes per timezone, but for me, this is most convenient.
Will be keeping an eye on StarNaN, he really impressed me in Dreamhack summer, hoping he can improve on that performance. The scene need more new hero's to rise :D
Hmh, I'm almost tempted to go at this one since i have never been to a LAN event.
But considering the no alcohol/smoking policy coupled with the fact that they run LOL thus about 99% of the crowd will be LOL fans, well at a price around 20$ ( I heard number from 20 to 40 but i will assume 20 ) it's just not worth it for me.
Tho i believe that Romania is a huge untapped marked for Lol tournaments, a fucking lot of people here actually seem to play LOL. Might even lead to more lol tournaments here in the future.
So.. what we have here? 8 koreans - nice, MaNa - good, some bm french zerg player - ok, naama - thats will be fun and other guys to just fill up brackets. Nothing really special, but terrans have Rain, StC and TOP to watch after all.
On October 09 2012 02:09 Raid wrote: They really don't want korean domination this dreamhack...
You make it sound as if DH choose these players or something...
Or that there was Korean domination at the last Dreamhack. Yeah, they got 3 of the top 4, but I believe all of them lost at least one set during the group stages.
DeathAngel? I can't believe they let him participate already. Nothing against giving second chances but this is too soon. By far too soon. International SC2 doesn't have a big organization to give out penalties for cheaters and scammers so it is up to the community to do that. Tournament organizers should be the front row in fighting against cheating and fraud. By letting DeathAngel participate in the very next DreamHack after he was caught stomps on their community responsibility.
And yes of course this is the big talk, it is only natural that people talk about the scammer in the tournament and not about the rest of the players. Let Savior into the next OSL and see if anyone talks about Flash or MC. But I don't think DH actually needs it. Maybe they did it to distract from the lack of Korean superstars? Maybe they just didn't know? Or maybe they are just far too forgiving? Either way, it puts DH into a bad spotlight. Now it looks like they don't care if someone is a scammer, as long as he makes them a bit of money.
On October 09 2012 03:03 Fenrax wrote: DeathAngel? I can't believe they let him participate already. Nothing against giving second chances but this is too soon. By far too soon. International SC2 doesn't have a big organization to give out penalties for cheaters and scammers so it is up to the community to do that. Tournament organizers should be the front row in fighting against cheating and fraud. By letting DeathAngel participate in the very next DreamHack after he was caught stomps on their community responsibility.
And yes of course this is the big talk, it is only natural that people talk about the scammer in the tournament and not about the rest of the players. Let Savior into the next OSL and see if anyone talks about Flash or MC. But I don't think DH actually needs it. Maybe they did it to distract from the lack of Korean superstars? Maybe they just didn't know? Or maybe they are just far too forgiving? Either way, it puts DH into a bad spotlight. Now it looks like they don't care if someone is a scammer, as long as he makes them a bit of money.
When will people like you understand that it is a tournament with a free sign up without Dreamhack accepting them or not. Maybe he needs some kind of punishment for it but Dreamhack isn't the one responsible for that and that's why he will be playing there. And you should overthink the border between "cheating and fraud". In addition to that the accusation that Dreamhack needs this because of the lack of Koreans or anything else is just stupid and you are only presuming it, he wanted to play in his homecountry and he will.
On October 08 2012 18:11 TheSneak wrote: Does anyone know much about the timing and stream options for this event? Cos that player list looks pretty sick and this could tie in really well with a Barcraft me and a mate are organising on the 20th for the GSL finals (a rare occasion where my isolated time zone might actually work in our favour!).
Any one know what time this tournament runs (roughly) and if there is a half-decent quality free stream? (Or if they're giving temporary HD keys to barcrafts like IEM does?)
They have a decent quality stream for free ,think it s 720p
I m almost scared about any issues with the stream myself as i want e-sports events to be common place in the future here in Romania but this is the first one so far and it has the potential to make or break the scene . We usually have some of the best internet in the world bandwidth wise but up-time wise it s mehh. Hope they properly sorted it.
On October 09 2012 03:03 Fenrax wrote: DeathAngel? I can't believe they let him participate already. Nothing against giving second chances but this is too soon. By far too soon. International SC2 doesn't have a big organization to give out penalties for cheaters and scammers so it is up to the community to do that. Tournament organizers should be the front row in fighting against cheating and fraud. By letting DeathAngel participate in the very next DreamHack after he was caught stomps on their community responsibility.
And yes of course this is the big talk, it is only natural that people talk about the scammer in the tournament and not about the rest of the players. Let Savior into the next OSL and see if anyone talks about Flash or MC. But I don't think DH actually needs it. Maybe they did it to distract from the lack of Korean superstars? Maybe they just didn't know? Or maybe they are just far too forgiving? Either way, it puts DH into a bad spotlight. Now it looks like they don't care if someone is a scammer, as long as he makes them a bit of money.
When will people like you understand that it is a tournament with a free sign up without Dreamhack accepting them or not.
This preposterous argument has been ridiculed in this thread by so many different people, and still people bring it up.
On October 09 2012 03:03 Fenrax wrote: DeathAngel? I can't believe they let him participate already. Nothing against giving second chances but this is too soon. By far too soon. International SC2 doesn't have a big organization to give out penalties for cheaters and scammers so it is up to the community to do that. Tournament organizers should be the front row in fighting against cheating and fraud. By letting DeathAngel participate in the very next DreamHack after he was caught stomps on their community responsibility.
And yes of course this is the big talk, it is only natural that people talk about the scammer in the tournament and not about the rest of the players. Let Savior into the next OSL and see if anyone talks about Flash or MC. But I don't think DH actually needs it. Maybe they did it to distract from the lack of Korean superstars? Maybe they just didn't know? Or maybe they are just far too forgiving? Either way, it puts DH into a bad spotlight. Now it looks like they don't care if someone is a scammer, as long as he makes them a bit of money.
When will people like you understand that it is a tournament with a free sign up without Dreamhack accepting them or not. Maybe he needs some kind of punishment for it but Dreamhack isn't the one responsible for that and that's why he will be playing there. And you should overthink the border between "cheating and fraud". In addition to that the accusation that Dreamhack needs this because of the lack of Koreans or anything else is just stupid and you are only presuming it, he wanted to play in his homecountry and he will.
When will people like you understand that Dreamhack isn't some kind of Christ child that is free of wrong? They can deny anyone entry into their tournament. It's their own tournament. It's like saying MLG can't deny a player entry into the Open Bracket. Yeah, they can. The fact of the matter is that they dropped the ball on Deathangel, and I'm not watching the tournament because of it. They're not even releasing a statement about it, unofficial or official, and that's what really annoys me. It's like they don't even care that he's a fraudulent player. If this is the punishment from the community for such actions, remind me to go PM some European Grandmasters about a plan I just figured out.
The thing with DeathAngel.. I bet there are so many players doing that and don`t get cought.. so if there is a "mora" issue with what he did you should reconsider that..
All in all we are humans and we make mistakes.. that dosen`t necesary mean he should be perma banned from the first mistake.. that`s not growing e-sports , that`s destroying it..
On October 13 2012 04:56 GreeN__ wrote: Rooting for DeathAngel and Nightend.
The thing with DeathAngel.. I bet there are so many players doing that and don`t get cought.. so if there is a "mora" issue with what he did you should reconsider that..
All in all we are humans and we make mistakes.. that dosen`t necesary mean he should be perma banned from the first mistake.. that`s not growing e-sports , that`s destroying it..
How many more female "grandmaster" players are out there who could potentially coax people into doing showmatches?
On October 13 2012 04:56 GreeN__ wrote: Rooting for DeathAngel and Nightend.
The thing with DeathAngel.. I bet there are so many players doing that and don`t get cought.. so if there is a "mora" issue with what he did you should reconsider that..
All in all we are humans and we make mistakes.. that dosen`t necesary mean he should be perma banned from the first mistake.. that`s not growing e-sports , that`s destroying it..
How many more female "grandmaster" players are out there who could potentially coax people into doing showmatches?
I haven't been keeping exact score, but has there been a single Romanian person in this thread who was in any way ashamed of what their countryman did?
It seems like you all either think there is nothing wrong with fraud or you think everyone should just forgive him for whatever reason.
i honestly think the stc has to be the favorite here unless i missed anyone major. I also find it funny that some of the players sound more like products than player names.
also i see why hongun lost passion and retired if he was on a team like absolute legends that is willing to keep someone like death angel on the roster.
On October 13 2012 15:40 Noam wrote: I haven't been keeping exact score, but has there been a single Romanian person in this thread who was in any way ashamed of what their countryman did?
It seems like you all either think there is nothing wrong with fraud or you think everyone should just forgive him for whatever reason.
I think it's somewhat normal for people to defend their players especially when we have like 2-3 decent ones in the whole country. But looking at this from the outside, I have this opinion.
1. I don't consider it DA's fault that that chick charged people money for coaching. As long as he wasn't part of it (and I've seen no evidence of him making money like that), then it's not really he who committed fraud, it was her. 2. Winning in normal tournaments where good players were invited, and a girl did because she was a girl, but deathangel was not even though he was better than some players, I find that "meh". As in, maybe he deserved the invitation to begin with, but he didn't get it because he isn't a girl?
Either way, I don't really think it matters in any way what Romanians in this thread thing. It's up to Dreamhack organizers if they are to ban players or not. I personally wouldn't be banning people for smurfing, because I'm sure a LOT of players are doing it anyway, and it has absolutely no impact on LAN play and this tournament whatsoever. Actually, I would particularly not ban him because drama = publicity lol.
On October 13 2012 05:03 StarVe wrote: How many more female "grandmaster" players are out there who could potentially coax people into doing showmatches?
Even if there is 1 more , my argument is valid.
How does that make the "I bet there are so many players doing that" -argument valid
On October 13 2012 15:40 Noam wrote: I haven't been keeping exact score, but has there been a single Romanian person in this thread who was in any way ashamed of what their countryman did?
It seems like you all either think there is nothing wrong with fraud or you think everyone should just forgive him for whatever reason.
funny how we stick together at times like this, we don;t want our tiny fraction of esports to be demolished with anything, so we are proctecting what is ours!
Yes, I am able to forgive deathangel just because he is romanian and i understand his situation better than people who are not romanian.
On October 13 2012 15:40 Noam wrote: I haven't been keeping exact score, but has there been a single Romanian person in this thread who was in any way ashamed of what their countryman did?
It seems like you all either think there is nothing wrong with fraud or you think everyone should just forgive him for whatever reason.
funny how we stick together at times like this, we don;t want our tiny fraction of esports to be demolished with anything, so we are proctecting what is ours!
Yes, I am able to forgive deathangel just because he is romanian and i understand his situation better than people who are not romanian.
I think your arguments are BS and he should be banned at least for this year. Stop with the nationalist bullshit, I want to see good players there, not the ones that impersonate and abuse tournaments .
Edit : Do you really need another crappy person to be associated with our country ? I think we have plenty.
On October 14 2012 03:29 Xoronius wrote: Btw. since Stephano droped out, will there be any replacement?
DeathAngel somewhat counts. Randomly allowing a guilty fraudster to participate should create the same amount of drama as your average Stephano mad genius.
Dreamhack put DA on the list just to get the buzz going, now their mid ok lineup for a mid DH event will be hyped as the big drama thread of the week
I don't understand DH sometimes, they talk about working togheter with other organizers and getting rules in place etc, the next minute they let people who commit fraud play in their tournaments and choose to ignore common rules for tournaments (They recently opted out on common rules for CS:GO).
Well, maybe Stephano can wear a wig and fake breasts and sign in as "Stephanie".
But anyway, looks like an awesome tournament! Interesting to see if Naniwa can finally conquer this unconquerable tournament. I'm a little disappointed in the low participation level of NA players though. EG, for example should definitely fly more players there. Sure flying to a far away location is a bitch but that should not be a big obstacle for pro players as long as it doesn't happen too often.
On October 17 2012 01:17 Kilby wrote: Well, maybe Stephano can wear a wig and fake breasts and sign in as "Stephanie".
But anyway, looks like an awesome tournament! Interesting to see if Naniwa can finally conquer this unconquerable tournament. I'm a little disappointed in the low participation level of NA players though. EG, for example should definitely fly more players there. Sure flying to a far away location is a bitch but that should not be a big obstacle for pro players as long as it doesn't happen too often.
On October 17 2012 01:17 Kilby wrote: Well, maybe Stephano can wear a wig and fake breasts and sign in as "Stephanie".
But anyway, looks like an awesome tournament! Interesting to see if Naniwa can finally conquer this unconquerable tournament. I'm a little disappointed in the low participation level of NA players though. EG, for example should definitely fly more players there. Sure flying to a far away location is a bitch but that should not be a big obstacle for pro players as long as it doesn't happen too often.
Naniwa dropped out, too, sorry.
Oh, dammit. Really? That sucks.
Also, may update the OP regarding players who are confirmed to have dropped out?
On October 17 2012 00:09 Jiddra wrote: Dreamhack put DA on the list just to get the buzz going, now their mid ok lineup for a mid DH event will be hyped as the big drama thread of the week
I don't understand DH sometimes, they talk about working togheter with other organizers and getting rules in place etc, the next minute they let people who commit fraud play in their tournaments and choose to ignore common rules for tournaments (They recently opted out on common rules for CS:GO).
I'm starting to lose faith in this tournament...First Stephano got suspended by EG then Naniwa dropped out to. Now apeX (oGs 2.0) koreans cancelled their participation.This tournament's gonna lack some high top tier players
On October 13 2012 15:40 Noam wrote: I haven't been keeping exact score, but has there been a single Romanian person in this thread who was in any way ashamed of what their countryman did?
It seems like you all either think there is nothing wrong with fraud or you think everyone should just forgive him for whatever reason.
funny how we stick together at times like this, we don;t want our tiny fraction of esports to be demolished with anything, so we are proctecting what is ours!
Yes, I am able to forgive deathangel just because he is romanian and i understand his situation better than people who are not romanian.
I think your arguments are BS and he should be banned at least for this year. Stop with the nationalist bullshit, I want to see good players there, not the ones that impersonate and abuse tournaments .
Edit : Do you really need another crappy person to be associated with our country ? I think we have plenty.
Go, NightEnd
deathangel is a good player, but he was impersonating as veralynn.
Sad about all the dropouts, but the groups are still looking somewhat decent, some have three or more known players already meeting in the first group stage. Nerchio/White/Protosser/Sleeep (the Turkish Sleeep with three e, Korean Sleep seems to have cancelled as well), for example, or Giantt/StarEagle/elfi and SonG/DeathAngel/fraer.
Poor Protosser should be screwed already with his awful ZvZ.
Although he wasn't on the previously announced list, ROX.KIS.fraer, DreamHack Summer semi-finalist is also participating, can't wait to see him do well, one of my favourite EU players.
This tournament will be in the fail records. I am romanian and i am so unlucky with this line up. I bought 3 tickets and i don't even fell like going even if it's 3 blocks from my home. I will go only and only for Nightend and DeathAngel and maybe see something interesting, but doubting it.
DH really dropped the ball on this one. Also...no LR thread on a DH going on is a great sign of fail.
I wonder about Ret as well, he was mentioned this morning in the TL writeup, I thought, they would know, if he competes or not. Really unfortunate, that he doesn´t participate, could have been a great tourney for him.
On October 20 2012 18:38 TheDougler wrote: Guess this is gonna be the LR thread?
What happened to Stephano and Naniwa, why didn't they show up?
Why did grubby not choose to participate?
Are all in Korea as far as i know.
No LR is weird indeed, but this DH is one to many imo and there's no hype.
This and the fact that so many players has failed to show up, like stephano and a bunch of Koreans(thank you APEX). There are too many tournaments right now, It's impossible, at least for me, to be up on date on what's happening.
EPT
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