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Forum Index > The Shopkeeper′s Inn
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yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
May 12 2016 23:37 GMT
#24661
OW already has custom game lobbies.

It had ranked, and it will have a revamped system soon after release.

LAN/Spectator mode is important for the game's potential as an esport, and are big questions.

There are quite a few game modes as it is now and enough maps. I do think they need to have a way to select what you'd like to play though, the variance in the experience between the maps is really high.
Writer@WriterYamato
red_
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8474 Posts
May 12 2016 23:43 GMT
#24662
Using TF2 as a precedent the difference between a good and a bad medic is so otherworldly it's unbelievable. It's not just 'general game skill' or something nebulous like that, I've played in the highest level PUGs that existed in NA for the game and people that are amazing scouts or demos or soldiers can be absolutely garbage at medic even though as a class you could simplify it down to movement and knowing who to heal.

I'm sure OW will be fine as far as skill on even the 'easy' heroes goes, don't worry. And if you really care that much just play only... Oh wait is have to name nearly the entire roster here because I almost completely disagree with who you think won't have massive differences between good and bad players(I especially raised my eyebrows at the idea that a Lucio won't ever shoot stuff or however you worded it... Ya and Widows full auto rifle is useless and D.va should just run and hide in pilot form instead of using one of the strongest weapons in the game... Etc)
How did the experience of working at Mr Burns' Nuclear Plant influence Homer's composition of the Iliad and Odyssey?
Cixah
Profile Joined July 2010
United States11285 Posts
May 12 2016 23:45 GMT
#24663
Well,

I'm technically invited to play at the Dreamhack Grand Prix for Dreamhack Summer. Now to convince work to let me go lol.
Hug The Goat! Hug the Goat! Hug the Goat!
Eppa!
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden4641 Posts
May 12 2016 23:45 GMT
#24664
On May 12 2016 17:13 Numy wrote:
OW will most likely never be balanced in the traditional sense of everything is viable much like League or Dota will never be balanced like that. It's even worse in OW though as overlap is rather large and the number of variables are far lower. I mean even CS has never been balanced like that.

I played a bunch of it over the weekend and it didn't really grab me. Maybe having a full team on team will be more fun but the maps just didn't really make me want to play more. It all felt a bit too chaotic and dirty to me. Reminds me of when I tried to play tf2 years after it went F2P with all the hats making the game feel a mess. It's better than I thought I'd be for a blizzard game though. Still doubt it'll be the next big thing in arena shooters.

ps. I don't get Eppa's complaint about simplistic characters. They aren't inherently bad. Look at Dota. So many of the heroes are rather simple in concept but that doesn't detract from the enjoyment or even the skill required to play them. Someone like CM who has very straight forward abilities still takes a lot of skill to utilize well. OW may be slightly different though as I mentioned earlier there are just fewer "variables" in the game to allow this kind of complexity.

edit: this actually reminds me of a discussion Yanger and I had awhile back about the trend of point and click abilities being removed in league due to being easy or little counter-play. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of how abilities work. Generally point and click abilities have a higher variance in opportunity cost compared to skillshots as a balance mechanism. So if you use your point and click on the wrong target in a teamfight it's normally far more impactful than if you do it with a skillshot. This emphasizes proper usage and timing of the ability more than skillshots. It's obviously not always true as you get high cooldown skillshots and low cooldown point and click but as a rule of thumb especially for CC abilities it tends to hold true more than it doesn't.

I actually think it's poor game design if you require overly complicated skills/heroes to differentiate player skill. SC2 is a perfect example of this where they added stuff like mules to add needless complexity due to their removal of it from the core gameplay compared to BW. Having said that there's nothing wrong with having some interesting or complex kits though. It just shouldn't be used as a crutch.

Since when is a 2 ability and an ultimate that you don't have mana for a fun hero? Why not play witchdoctor instead?

I don't see a problem with point and click abilities but when they are borderline brain dead in use like all the support ultimates it's not about it's easy or not. Why can't support have any ability that actual takes skill to use? Skill shots are less impactful if they hit and their range is generally shorter too.

Also saying BW and Quake being simple is laughable. They are both complex and deep.
"Can't wait till Monday" Cixah+Waveofshadow. "Needs to be monday. Weekend please go by quickly." Gahlo
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-13 00:09:41
May 12 2016 23:50 GMT
#24665
Draft was meh, but atmosphere was nice.
+ Show Spoiler +
We were 12 which is really surprising for a thursday, but there was a couple who bought the welcome set thing and were trying the draft together.
Opened Plate of the Slayers with Town Gossipmonger as another potential first pick. Never played with the Plate so I decided to go with it, try to collect humans, and close games with 5/3 flying spirits if nothing else.
Ended up in BW, Red hilariously often made the wheel twice before getting picked up with Fiery Temper and Voldaren Duelists running around, Arsonists ended up the last card in a pack twice, etc.
I had 2x ghoulcaller's accomplice, 2x Nearheath Chaplain, Open the Armoury for Plate or Censer, Thraben Inspector, 3-4 pieces of removal, Accursed Witch, Avacynian Missionaries, and banking on the wheel got 2 Abandoned Sanctuaries that'll be of use in my standard deck.

I ended up facing the woman match 1, she remained stuck at 2 mana for most of the first game so it was pretty one-sided. She was on UG clues which seems hard for a beginner since it doesn't have a clearly-defined wincon, and her right neighbour was in UB so he kept most good U cards from her.

Match 2 was against said neighbour, who got passed Startled Awake pick 2. He had lands, bounces (so Vessel of Ephemera useless) and Startled Awake in hand game 1 and proudly announced I'd be dead by turn 7. Because of a mull I actually only lost on turn 9 and joked that I had a moral victory. Game 2 he drew it turn 2 so the same happened, although I was on 2 lands the entire game and with a 3rd one I'd probably have won (he played kinda arrogantly and took a lot of damage, I had a censer out, and with the 3rd land I could activate vessel again, or turn Nearheath Chaplain into tokens, or just Angelic Purge the creature side away then finish him in a couple turns).
Not really a match with such hands.

Match 3 was against the man of the couple, who was on GW (my left neighbour) and had just defeated his girlfriend with a mix of delirium payoff (Soul Swallower, Ooze, Moorland Drifter with Hope Against Hope attached). Gave them a bit of advice (especially her, who held Broken Concentration with open mana but never actually countered the Swallower nor Ooze).
I won partly because I drafted some removal and managed to trade life for his creatures (chumping cult then killing it with Pale Rider + madness'd Murderous Compulsion pretty good swing for 4 mana), and partly because he couldn't deal with the ton of tokens I could make. I killed him with only 1/1 flying spirits game 2 because Moldgraf Scavenger is annoying to bypass and I traded for his actual creatures pretty aggressively.

So every match was kinda one-sided, although the 2nd against the woman and the ones against the man were more interesting in a "help a newcomer wrap his head around the game fashion", and everyone was globally friendly. Of course our table was the low level one too, which helped.
Missed Jace, Ulvenwald Hydra and GW land, but picked up another Thalia's Lieutenant and Startled Awake.

If the couple comes back I'll give them the 120 or so excess SoI cards I have instead of getting to 200 then selling it for some €. It's all draft chaff but if they're newcomers it'll help them for kitchen table.

On the other hand one of my dice disappeared. I lent it for life-counting purpose and didn't count because the table was clear when we left, but once home I noticed it missing. It's the 2nd time it happens and I'm pretty miffed about it, I hope it wasn't on purpose but either way I know I'm not getting it back so meh.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-13 00:40:33
May 13 2016 00:28 GMT
#24666
On May 13 2016 08:45 Eppa! wrote:
Since when is a 2 ability and an ultimate that you don't have mana for a fun hero? Why not play witchdoctor instead?

WD is a pretty shitty example cuz I'm p sure WD's skills take less skill to use well than CM's.

CM's ulti is probably one of the more difficult support ultis to use well in DotA tbh. In fact, a lot of the most difficult support ultis to use well are completely target-less and the difficulty comes entirely from timing/positioning. Even for targeted ones, actually using the ability is the lowest, most basic skill, and at a high level, the skill in using the ability is entirely finding the right moment in a fight to use it (e.g. Black Hole, Echo Slam).
Moderator
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
May 13 2016 01:01 GMT
#24667
On May 13 2016 08:45 Cixah wrote:
Well,

I'm technically invited to play at the Dreamhack Grand Prix for Dreamhack Summer. Now to convince work to let me go lol.

Convince them to pay for it.
It's your boy Guzma!
Eppa!
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden4641 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-13 01:14:49
May 13 2016 01:13 GMT
#24668
On May 13 2016 09:28 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2016 08:45 Eppa! wrote:
Since when is a 2 ability and an ultimate that you don't have mana for a fun hero? Why not play witchdoctor instead?

WD is a pretty shitty example cuz I'm p sure WD's skills take less skill to use well than CM's.

CM's ulti is probably one of the more difficult support ultis to use well in DotA tbh. In fact, a lot of the most difficult support ultis to use well are completely target-less and the difficulty comes entirely from timing/positioning. Even for targeted ones, actually using the ability is the lowest, most basic skill, and at a high level, the skill in using the ability is entirely finding the right moment in a fight to use it (e.g. Black Hole, Echo Slam).

I don't know shit about doto.
On May 13 2016 08:43 red_ wrote:
Using TF2 as a precedent the difference between a good and a bad medic is so otherworldly it's unbelievable. It's not just 'general game skill' or something nebulous like that, I've played in the highest level PUGs that existed in NA for the game and people that are amazing scouts or demos or soldiers can be absolutely garbage at medic even though as a class you could simplify it down to movement and knowing who to heal.

I'm sure OW will be fine as far as skill on even the 'easy' heroes goes, don't worry. And if you really care that much just play only... Oh wait is have to name nearly the entire roster here because I almost completely disagree with who you think won't have massive differences between good and bad players(I especially raised my eyebrows at the idea that a Lucio won't ever shoot stuff or however you worded it... Ya and Widows full auto rifle is useless and D.va should just run and hide in pilot form instead of using one of the strongest weapons in the game... Etc)

I am talking about one player playing 500 hours of OW which 50 is with lucio compared to 500 OW 250 with Lucio. Is there really a big difference?
"Can't wait till Monday" Cixah+Waveofshadow. "Needs to be monday. Weekend please go by quickly." Gahlo
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
May 13 2016 01:27 GMT
#24669
Pretty sure there's a bunch of spots and tricks with wallriding that you could learn to use better with a bunch of time invested yup.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
MooMooMugi
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States10531 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-13 01:56:26
May 13 2016 01:55 GMT
#24670
Hstone rant: I play King Elekk on turn 2 and turn 3, it reveals Fiery Bat (1 mana) both times. I play my other copy of Fiery Bat on turn 1
Odds of that: + Show Spoiler +
(1/25)*(1/24) = (0.04)*(0.041666) = 0.001666 = 0.1666%

And this happened to me twice today lmao
|LoL & SC2 IGN both my username| Just livin' the baylife| Hearthstone ID: MooMooMugi#1544| Dank Memer since 2011
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12084 Posts
May 13 2016 03:55 GMT
#24671
On May 13 2016 10:55 MooMooMugi wrote:
Hstone rant: I play King Elekk on turn 2 and turn 3, it reveals Fiery Bat (1 mana) both times. I play my other copy of Fiery Bat on turn 1
Odds of that: + Show Spoiler +
(1/25)*(1/24) = (0.04)*(0.041666) = 0.001666 = 0.1666%

And this happened to me twice today lmao

**playing huntard**

**complaining**
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
MooMooMugi
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States10531 Posts
May 13 2016 04:51 GMT
#24672
On May 13 2016 12:55 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2016 10:55 MooMooMugi wrote:
Hstone rant: I play King Elekk on turn 2 and turn 3, it reveals Fiery Bat (1 mana) both times. I play my other copy of Fiery Bat on turn 1
Odds of that: + Show Spoiler +
(1/25)*(1/24) = (0.04)*(0.041666) = 0.001666 = 0.1666%

And this happened to me twice today lmao

**playing huntard**

**complaining**

hunter is actually a pretty toned down class compared to aggro/evolve shaman and seagiant zoolock nowadays
|LoL & SC2 IGN both my username| Just livin' the baylife| Hearthstone ID: MooMooMugi#1544| Dank Memer since 2011
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-13 06:35:17
May 13 2016 06:27 GMT
#24673
On May 13 2016 08:45 Eppa! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2016 17:13 Numy wrote:
OW will most likely never be balanced in the traditional sense of everything is viable much like League or Dota will never be balanced like that. It's even worse in OW though as overlap is rather large and the number of variables are far lower. I mean even CS has never been balanced like that.

I played a bunch of it over the weekend and it didn't really grab me. Maybe having a full team on team will be more fun but the maps just didn't really make me want to play more. It all felt a bit too chaotic and dirty to me. Reminds me of when I tried to play tf2 years after it went F2P with all the hats making the game feel a mess. It's better than I thought I'd be for a blizzard game though. Still doubt it'll be the next big thing in arena shooters.

ps. I don't get Eppa's complaint about simplistic characters. They aren't inherently bad. Look at Dota. So many of the heroes are rather simple in concept but that doesn't detract from the enjoyment or even the skill required to play them. Someone like CM who has very straight forward abilities still takes a lot of skill to utilize well. OW may be slightly different though as I mentioned earlier there are just fewer "variables" in the game to allow this kind of complexity.

edit: this actually reminds me of a discussion Yanger and I had awhile back about the trend of point and click abilities being removed in league due to being easy or little counter-play. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of how abilities work. Generally point and click abilities have a higher variance in opportunity cost compared to skillshots as a balance mechanism. So if you use your point and click on the wrong target in a teamfight it's normally far more impactful than if you do it with a skillshot. This emphasizes proper usage and timing of the ability more than skillshots. It's obviously not always true as you get high cooldown skillshots and low cooldown point and click but as a rule of thumb especially for CC abilities it tends to hold true more than it doesn't.

I actually think it's poor game design if you require overly complicated skills/heroes to differentiate player skill. SC2 is a perfect example of this where they added stuff like mules to add needless complexity due to their removal of it from the core gameplay compared to BW. Having said that there's nothing wrong with having some interesting or complex kits though. It just shouldn't be used as a crutch.

Since when is a 2 ability and an ultimate that you don't have mana for a fun hero? Why not play witchdoctor instead?

I don't see a problem with point and click abilities but when they are borderline brain dead in use like all the support ultimates it's not about it's easy or not. Why can't support have any ability that actual takes skill to use? Skill shots are less impactful if they hit and their range is generally shorter too.

Also saying BW and Quake being simple is laughable. They are both complex and deep.


CM ulti may be the hardest ulti in the game for a support to use well. CM has to be extremely careful with how she uses her abilities because of how fragile she is as a hero. This takes positioning, timing and map movement. She's a slow hero as well. All these add up. That's why there's an absolute massive gulf between good and bad support CM players. I mean ES is also a super simple hero that's extremely hard to play well.

BW and Quake are simple? What's complex about Quake? Pick up items, shoot opponent. That's it. Everything about it is simple. That simplicity has a massive amount of depth though that makes the game incredibly complex at the highest level but at it's core it's simple. I remember playing deathmatches in class 15 years ago with guys at school all running round, everyone in that class could understand what to do in quake from a few seconds of playing it. That's simple.

The only thing I can think of is what believe is simplicity and what I do is completely different.
On May 13 2016 10:13 Eppa! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2016 09:28 TheYango wrote:
On May 13 2016 08:45 Eppa! wrote:
Since when is a 2 ability and an ultimate that you don't have mana for a fun hero? Why not play witchdoctor instead?

WD is a pretty shitty example cuz I'm p sure WD's skills take less skill to use well than CM's.

CM's ulti is probably one of the more difficult support ultis to use well in DotA tbh. In fact, a lot of the most difficult support ultis to use well are completely target-less and the difficulty comes entirely from timing/positioning. Even for targeted ones, actually using the ability is the lowest, most basic skill, and at a high level, the skill in using the ability is entirely finding the right moment in a fight to use it (e.g. Black Hole, Echo Slam).

I don't know shit about doto.
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2016 08:43 red_ wrote:
Using TF2 as a precedent the difference between a good and a bad medic is so otherworldly it's unbelievable. It's not just 'general game skill' or something nebulous like that, I've played in the highest level PUGs that existed in NA for the game and people that are amazing scouts or demos or soldiers can be absolutely garbage at medic even though as a class you could simplify it down to movement and knowing who to heal.

I'm sure OW will be fine as far as skill on even the 'easy' heroes goes, don't worry. And if you really care that much just play only... Oh wait is have to name nearly the entire roster here because I almost completely disagree with who you think won't have massive differences between good and bad players(I especially raised my eyebrows at the idea that a Lucio won't ever shoot stuff or however you worded it... Ya and Widows full auto rifle is useless and D.va should just run and hide in pilot form instead of using one of the strongest weapons in the game... Etc)

I am talking about one player playing 500 hours of OW which 50 is with lucio compared to 500 OW 250 with Lucio. Is there really a big difference?

Based on the TF2 medic yes. Having played competitive TF2(Our scene is no where near NA though ) my experience was it was night and day between the medic "mains" and guys just playing medic.
Jek
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark2771 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-13 10:29:40
May 13 2016 10:28 GMT
#24674
I just got my first tattoo today, 2 hours ago! Brand of Sacrifice from Berserk on my left inner wrist. Thought it'd hurt like hell - like getting chewed up by sharp puppy teeth, but it turned out to feel really nice - a weird warm and buzzy sensation.

Got more relaxed than from stress relief acupuncture. Can really understand how you can get "addicted" to tats now. lol
It's Elo not ELO - Every statiscian playing League
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23470 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-13 10:32:35
May 13 2016 10:29 GMT
#24675
On May 13 2016 05:09 Scip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2016 04:19 TheYango wrote:
On May 13 2016 04:03 killerdog wrote:
The price issue is kinda big though. Considering it basically has one game queue, and doesn't even have ranked, it's really not worth $40 imo.

This is the crux of it to me. No dedicated servers, no replay or ranked at release. The release featureset doesn't seem to justify a $40 pricetag.

Buying the game now feels like betting on the likelihood that the game eventually gets the corresponding features--which admittedly is a reasonable assumption because it's Blizzard.

LAN support xD
the technology isn't there yet I guess xD
custom game lobbies xD
the technology isn't there yet I guess xD


hard to respect shit like that when it was right there in diablo fucking 1 in like 1996 20 years ago
you literally had to use 100% of your phone line to connect to the internet with a modem that made the sounds of a dying alien race and you could meet friends and make clans in custom game lobbys/chat rooms and could play LAN too

you basically had to fucking RING BATTLE.NET's NUMBER and be like "yes can I join my clanmates game" and it was like "sure bro no problem"

or like 8 man replays in 1998 in BW
but no can't do that in fucking league of legions
aka Teutonica
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
May 13 2016 13:03 GMT
#24676
On May 13 2016 19:28 Jek wrote:
I just got my first tattoo today, 2 hours ago! Brand of Sacrifice from Berserk on my left inner wrist. Thought it'd hurt like hell - like getting chewed up by sharp puppy teeth, but it turned out to feel really nice - a weird warm and buzzy sensation.

Got more relaxed than from stress relief acupuncture. Can really understand how you can get "addicted" to tats now. lol


I've had a couple in mind that I want to get, but haven't pulled the trigger. My brother's got a few at this point I think.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
May 13 2016 13:06 GMT
#24677
On May 13 2016 04:08 phyvo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2016 11:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
On May 12 2016 11:13 Dandel Ion wrote:
you win with basically anything remotely following a little bit of logic, people are so bad at deciding their two cards

you'd think when "deck construction" is only two cards it's not that hard but apparantly it is idk man

Oh god. I thought "this'll be fun" nope. everyone seems to be net decking 2 cards even. 5 innervate coldlight druids in a row.


I think this tavern brawl might be the most boring and degenerate thing I've ever played. Sure, the pure coinflip brawls sucked, but at least with those you didn't simply queue into another person whose brawl deck is the paper to your rock. I always hated the tavern brawl quest but this time I might say screw the extra gold and reroll it if I get it.

While I can respect people have different tastes I have no idea why you'd reroll the current easiest quest to complete lol. Sitting at 30+ wins in this tavern brawl right now.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Jek
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark2771 Posts
May 13 2016 14:07 GMT
#24678
On May 13 2016 22:03 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2016 19:28 Jek wrote:
I just got my first tattoo today, 2 hours ago! Brand of Sacrifice from Berserk on my left inner wrist. Thought it'd hurt like hell - like getting chewed up by sharp puppy teeth, but it turned out to feel really nice - a weird warm and buzzy sensation.

Got more relaxed than from stress relief acupuncture. Can really understand how you can get "addicted" to tats now. lol


I've had a couple in mind that I want to get, but haven't pulled the trigger. My brother's got a few at this point I think.

Nice. Any particular design in mind?
It's Elo not ELO - Every statiscian playing League
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12084 Posts
May 13 2016 14:25 GMT
#24679
On May 13 2016 22:03 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2016 19:28 Jek wrote:
I just got my first tattoo today, 2 hours ago! Brand of Sacrifice from Berserk on my left inner wrist. Thought it'd hurt like hell - like getting chewed up by sharp puppy teeth, but it turned out to feel really nice - a weird warm and buzzy sensation.

Got more relaxed than from stress relief acupuncture. Can really understand how you can get "addicted" to tats now. lol


I've had a couple in mind that I want to get, but haven't pulled the trigger. My brother's got a few at this point I think.

Shhhh...Sonnington might hear you.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23470 Posts
May 13 2016 14:47 GMT
#24680
ehehe

i sorta agree with sonnington but like i just manage not to be a total dick about it
expert play
aka Teutonica
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