The LiquidLegends Lounge - Page 1203

While I generally agree with you that conquest has excellent (1) maps and (2) interactions between your units and enemy units, and that solely with respect to those two qualities it is potentially the best game in the series so far, I don't think that those two things alone constitute the gameplay. The menu-based workload is so rote and bloated that I would call it worst in series, the unit balance is very mediocre and I doubt this changes on Lunatic, and the army-building aspect (of Conquest) is abysmal (children included), for three examples.

I can't agree with you that the children were implemented well from a gameplay perspective in Conquest, though I think they work well in Birthright and Revelation which focus much more on the army building aspect of the series. Capturable units are alright but ultimately pretty bland and not very fleshed out (and limited to 2 characters because reasons?), I mean, it's not a bad thing that it's there, and it's sort of useful and you can get classes you otherwise couldn't, but it forces you to use the slow and uninteresting and out-of-place (in conquest) as fuck my castle shit, the capturable bosses don't have any supports or otherwise conversations, and combining that with possibly the blandest enemy NPC writing in the series so far, I just... can't really see this feature as great enough to call it "categorically successful" even if it's like 4/10 good and 0/10 bad and a net positive overall because it just falls so flat on it's potential. Debuffs I'm gonna hold off on making a judgement on until I finished Lunatic Conquest because I've heard they're important to the difficulty there, but my initial impression from hard mode is that they add to the bulk of shit to pay attention to in this game and the slow pace overall, but seem like cool difficulty balancing factors to create constant potential threat from most blocks of enemy units, as long as it doesn't end up being cheesy.

I strongly disagree that Conquest's story isn't improved by being familiar with Birthright's. Birthright drops a lot of plot hooks that it doesn't expand upon by itself, while Conquest does pick up on them, which is... really the only merit Conquest's story has, at all. Conquest's story isn't a stand-alone story, it's just "the other side" expansion to Birthright's. Like, a major critique of Conquest's story is that we were promised a story of internal change to the kingdom and defs not just an "evil route", which is not what happened at all, and I'm suspicious that at some point in development they actually scrapped Conquest's story and just built the new thing based on Birthright. Story aside, the unit balance and children implementation are too poor in Conquest to have a meaningful army building aspect of the gameplay, and the online / my castle features add a little bit to it in a really limited/restricted sense, a lot of the my castle shit just isn't functionally present without a way to obtain dragon vein points and cycling of the different buildings and shit, so it just has a lot of incomplete aspects to it that really really benefit from Revelations and DLC imo, and enough so that I would call the game not a stand-alone game just because it gets so drastically more complete with like extra 2 things.

It's a fun game to mod though, since it provides such a good base to work off of. I would put Conquest+DLC+Mods near the top of my list of my favourite FE games, but without those it's p.lacking imo and with too many things I hate about it.

You're going to have to expand on what you mean by this?


Are we playing the same game? Unit balance on Conquest is exceptionally good for the series. IS has achieved a level of universal unit viability not seen since the Kaga era--basically every character can make meaningful contributions to the team and has reasonable claim to being worth using. There are a couple stand-out powerful units but the gameplay of Conquest prevents these units from being overcentralizing and the game is very beatable without using any of them. I consider universal unit viability to essentially be a success, as unit equality is an unattainable goal and doesn't really confer any benefit to gameplay anyway.


What qualms do you have with them then? Children in Fates are:

- Not overpowered due to Fates' formula for base/growth determination being dialed back
- Not overcentralizing for the same reason
- Not completely useless at recruit due to base level scaling to join time
- Provide tangible benefit to being recruited BUT are also not required to beat the game and due to the changes to the XP formula, any overleveling that occurs through doing a child paralogue largely self-corrects within 1-2 chapters
- Are flexible and capable of serving multiple gameplay functions for the purpose of a given playthrough (either recruited early to add a viable growth unit when you lack investment units on your roster, or recruited late to act as a serviceable prepromote unit that can immediately be deployed)
- Taking over the spot of lategame prepromotes also means that you can't just lowman-and-stomp early game and then get random no-investment prepromotes to fill out your tiny overleveled roster; the support requirement forces you to make healthy team-building choices that prevent you from lowmanning to trivialize early game if you want to get those prepromotes later

On top of which, some of the best maps in Conquest are among the child maps. I'm failing to see where you what is done poorly with them. You also need to expand on what you mean by the "army building aspect of the series" because you've used that term twice when it's not really self-explanatory.


??? Captured units aren't limited to 2? You can have up to 20 captured units in your army at a time, you just can't have more than 2/4/6 in your Prison at once. People have done all-Generics challenge runs lol.


Again, you aren't being terribly convincing of either of these being poor, and it goes against my own personal experience as well as that of many others.


Neither of these things require Revelation or DLC to accomplish. Visiting someone else's castle grants DV points and advances time cycles.

Disliking My Castle is fair, and a criticism raised by many, but in general it's not really obtrusive enough to significantly negatively impact the overall game experience, IMO.

UW spirits tribal (brew)
BRg vampires aggro (brew)
BW sac + Show Spoiler +
BW control (list)
Mardu control
UW humans x2
GW humans
Bant CoCo
GB aristocrats

I thought I'd be favoured in this match-up with all of my removal, until I'd manage to wear him down, drop planeswalkers and win (or a giant secure the wastes).
That was pretty much game 1, removing lieutenants and not really giving targets to his bouncers. I actually had my first learning fork for my deck pretty early: do I use my Anguished Unmaking on Always Watching or Thalia's Lieutenant? With all my unconditional removal, I decided to clear the enchant because if another one came up Languish would miss a lot of things.
With a couple of shambling vents and a Gideon out, and having also seen Avacyn, I closed the game. He drew a couple lands too much though.

He boarded some cards in for game 2, and I put Flaying Tendrils and 2 Infinite Obliteration (for Avacyn, Lieutenant and/or Orchid Knight) in exchange for Outburst, one Silkwrap and one Stasis Snare.
He started off very aggressively, with Thalia's Lieutenant -> Thraben Inspector -> Thalia's Lieutenant. He'd kept mana and Negated (brought in) my Grasp of Darkness on the big Lieutenant, leading to me taking a bunch of damage. I lost a Gideon and Languish to deal with it, and Ultimate Price was countered by Avacyn (I killed the rest of his board on his turn with Secure, then killed her on my upkeep to prevent the transformation).
In the end, between Declaration on Waste tokens, and Reflector/Declaration on Gideon's, he went through with his second wave.

Game 3 had me take some damage early, but my mana was fine, I had Gideon out, and I could produce enough tokens to survive when he played Odric to give first strike to everything. I Grasp'd him, blocked some more, then removed the rest of the board with Flaying Tendrils.
Again, I had vents, plenty of removal, a couple Gideon swings to drop him below 10, and even Linvala out. He had flipped Avacyn because I miscounted my mana and couldn't remove her immediatly, oh well.
At that point time was called and he managed to stay alive, with 6 life remaining. Welp!

I think it's a very favourable match-up for me, as long as I don't get drowned into a Lieutenant/Gossipmonger/inspector start with an Always Watching to protect them before I can Languish. I remember that he had an Abbey but either I had a boardclear (or he didn't have 6 open mana during my turn), or when he could have done it, Sorin revealed a Declaration in Stone. The match makes me semi-confident about my deck (in general, not at that point).
Also if I learn to play around Negate better.

He lost vs the Mardu control player, and we just switched opponents between us 4, so I'm paired down.

Game 1 has a 6-lander mulled into double plains... harsh. But I'm on the draw and I really don't want to mull to 4 against somebody who's aggro.
He showed me Asylum Visitor, Fiery Temper... then drops Arlinn Kord, his green splash. Fuck. My board's empty against Arlinn, her token and a Visitor. I clear the visitor, take some damage (he bolts my face too), remove Arlinn... despite my card disadvantage (from the mull and burning removal on his tokens), I manage to hold on, and his end is empty, even having used Asylum Visitor's trigger!
In the end though, after his second Arlinn comes down (he's only got 2 and hit them in the first 15 cards, that was brutal), it's 3 loyalty flip Arlinn and wolf token vs 3 loyalty Sorin and me on 5 life. I only have a land in hand, drawing slightly too much of them, and I have a choice between plussing Sorin, hoping I draw an out (Secure, Ruinous Path... in a pinch Gideon and Linvala can let me live too) prob losing next turn if I don't, or sac-ing him to remove Arlinn, giving me 2 draws at least.
I my next draw is a dud, the second solution doesn't make me lose, so I go for it, and up to 8 life. My next draws are lands and he fiery temper+hit me with a creature topdeck and I lose. Dang. I'm pressured but on the other hand if I can almost stabilise while drawing slightly too many lands, and mulling to 5, I should have decent chances. The biggest issue with his deck is Arlinn because of the burst provided by her front plus and a topdecked creature, and I guess Olivia if I don't remove her immediatly (he didn't draw her), but the creatures I can deal with.


Tendrils and Anguished in because fuck Arlinn, and I think Outburst, a grasp and something else out.
Game 2 is simply on me. He plays Heir of Falkenrath turn 2 (with forest and swamp) and I expect him to discard something with madness like an Asylum Visitor turn 3, so I'm willing to take 3 damage to get a 2-for-1 with Flaying Tendrils, especially since I have 2 of them in hand, so I pass turn 3 without doing anything.
Turn 3 he plays Mountain, discards Fiery Temper to Heir, and swings. I take 6.
I then play tendrils turn 4 and he drops Arlinn on his own (yuck). I can't take a turn to draw now, and I need Ruinous Path or Gideon to deal with her basically.

He plays Asylum Visitor and makes her a hasty 5/3 vigilance. I remove it and the wolf token with tendrils n°2 but I'm really down in life (I misplayed my lands and had to activate Caves of Koilos twice too). He topdecks another visitor and basically closes it there.

I still think my deck should be able to beat his, although finding his Arlinn on curve both games (or close to it, was turn 5 game 1) while I struggle to get my Ruinous Path or match him with Gideon is brutal.
I think a land earlier, or getting at least another of my 4 Gideon (well, remaining 3), or Linvala game 1 would have completely swung the tides, and game 2... well, really that's on me. He only had a mountain turn 3 so I don't know if he could even have played something. On turn 4 I woulda have Read the Bones, Arlinn would still have put him ahead but I'd have had the life to not die, and normally the removal to stall.

0-1-1 isn't glorious and makes me think I need to win the next one if I want to shiny promo.

He observes that a bunch of our main board cards won't be very useful in a control mirror as we shuffle. Sums up the match pretty well.

He doesn't play creatures. At all.
And I only have Kalitas and Linvala and tokens, so...
We don't do much, although a completely random mainboard Transgress the Mind exiles the Sorin I drew two turns earlier.
Then the dance of Shambling Vents starts. We don't have other plays to make, so... but I can Grasp of Darkness his. He can Kolaghan command mine and make me discard... Languish! Oh no! We're just smiling.
Things go on and he throws down Chandra, while I miss the land drop that'd make me awaken Ruinous Path and have a 4/4 by the following turn to push damage (would have been risky if he still held removal, anyway... but much upside if I can hit with it). He also plays Gideon, and shows me a Nahiri that goes to 6 loyalty, I answer with Secure tthe Wastes for 9 EoT, all on her in case he's got stuff to remove creatures or surprise blocks somehow. She goes down, but Declaration in Stone clears them right after (thinking back about, I wonder if I had Abbey at that point... ? iirc I didn't have it at all that game so no misplay to make here I guess).
He shows me another Gideon, and Needle Spires, Grasp of Darkness, Stasis Snare remove them, and so do Blighted Fen later (I guess he did it anyway knowing I'd sac the Fen, even though he didn't have another play to replace it with?).
We're laughing our asses off all that time because we were losing more life from Painful Truth/Read the Bones and the odd painland than from attacks, since Shambling Vents usually undid anything that went through, and once half our removal is spent (and the manlands with them) and the other doesn't hit our damage sources (Ultimate Price on double-coloured manlands, sorceries like Declaration in Stone or the sweepers, etc.), we spend a number of turns passing to each other.
It ends when he hits his second Chandra and a couple other manlands, because I can't deal with them. I think I got a couple hits in by plussing Gideon in the meanwhile though? At that point I felt like I had a chance but he had too many outs.

Game 2 is shorter, I board in Duress x3, Transgress x3, Anguished Unmaking and Tragic Arrogance for walkers, and I remove Ultimate Price, Silkwrap x2, Planar Outburst, Languish x2, Kalitas and I'm not sure what else.
He board in over half a dozen cards himself, which are revealed to be Forerunner of Slaughter, Dust Tracker, and other in-color hasty creatures to keep in his deck's theme.
t1 swamp Duress. Eat that! He reveals manlands, Chandra and Gideon.
... well fuck.
I remove Chandra, much more dangerous, and we proceed, him with manlands, myself with draw and nothing else, till I hit a Transgress the Mind. Turns out he drew his second Chandra during these couple turns.
Well fuck. Goobye Chandra².
He's got a manland of each and I don't draw Gideon, Secure nor stuff. It gets really hard for me as he pressures my life total, I don't draw outs, and the possibility of a draw (or rather losing 0-1) slowly dissipates. I Stasis Snare a Needle Spires and next turn topdeck Grasp of Darkness that takes care of his Dust Tracker, but he still has 1-2 manlands and I'm at 5-6 life, so I just lose a couple turns later.

I think the match-up is hugely in the favour of Mardu Control. Maybe a more creature-centric BW, with HBW, Avacyn, etc. would have had better chances?
My removal suite is more tailored toward human decks which I expected to be facing, and I only have 2 Ruinous Path so it became painfully obvious how hard Plainswalkers are to deal with. Sorin is not a true solution because he's one of my wincons, so trading him for a planeswalker (and losing him to burn/a creature the next turn, assuming the enemy PWs hasn't had the opportunity to plus often enough) is a value loss for me I think.
Chandra, on the other hand, is probably the strongest planeswalker in standard. Sorin's got the most value in a single ability out of his plus, but he lacks the versatility and safety of Chandra, who comes down earlier, can deal with several creatures at once, and kills your opponent a lot faster. She's really scary.
He had 6+ Planeswalkers (2 Chandra, 2+ Gideon, 1+ Nahiri, 1+ Sorin that I never saw) and 6 manlands to my 6 (with Chandra > Gideon anyway) and 4, so once the removal's out of the way I think he's stronger in the long game.
A huge secure the wastes EoT into Gideon for an instant emblem and a one-shotting swing is probably the only way I win unless he keeps bricking his draws while Gideon's out (with 6 manlands it'd be hard), or I have Abbey and 5+ mana after the secure+gideon gimmick, so I can sac them into Ormendahl in response to the inevitable Declaration in Stone.
It was fun and unjoyable though, and we laughed a lot, especially during game 1, for all the goofiness of the match-up. It's just that I don't think I can win that.
It was 0-1-1 vs 2-0, so I was paired up this time (he destroyed my round 1 opponent, and I assume the draw + somebody else being already 0-2 made it so I was the closest opponent he hadn't already faced available), and he ended up second of the whole thing with a 3-1 record.

It's exactly the kind of individually weak, synergistic creature-based deck that mine does well against, and it was a homebrew of the weakest tribe in SoI, so I don't think going into detail would... well, not like the previous 3 write-ups were interesting.

Game 1 was Rattlechains flashed in end of my turn 2, essence flux used to keep it alive from my removal and buff it, and me dropping to 9 before I can languish it + topplegeist. Opponent stuck at 3 mana, I drop Gideon, win in 4 turns.
Game 2 was me removing stuff he played, sometimes playing 2 just to get around Rattlechains' hexproof trigger (or responding to it when it's flashed to kill it with ultimate price anyway).
Only detail of note is when he's got an Uninvited Geist flipped (taps my token, swings ignoring Gideon) with 2 mana open. I want to remove it, but expect Rattlechains, and it's turn 6. I can play Sorin, minus him for 3, and have him potentially die if Rattlechains prevents the damage from taking place, so I play a Declaration in Stone instead (only removal available, compared to Sorin if he has nothing then he at least gets to replace it and I don't have a plainswalker on board), and he negates it.
I look at the negate. Then at the Sorin in my hand. Then at the negate again. Sigh of relief at the value blowout that almost happened.

The thing that this deck showed me though, unrelated to how one-sided it was, is the power of a fully instant-speed deck.
Once the Rattlechains came down on turn 2, he started playing at the end of my turn, so I couldn't use my sorcery-speed removal until he untapped, couldn't really decide how to use plainswalkers/tokens without knowing whether or not I'd lose it if left too open compared to his open mana, etc. It really warped how I looked at the game and I think that's something I'd rather discover now that against a stronger deck (like Esper... which is PW superfriends so mine loses to it too prob).