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Then again you can argue that Mysterious Challenger is more interactive because you "can" play around all these secrets, even if it's at a huge value loss. Doesn't change the fact that the Paladin can drop it without second thoughts unless it kills him on the spot.
Plus, what have they given Rogue in exchange? We haven't seen all cards from old gods, but unless you play subpar decks such as Malygod or Miracle (which relied on flurry too because it doesn't have enough damage by itself otherwise—unless, again, you run Malygos) you need flurry to be a rogue. If not, you're relying on neutral minions to do your job so your identity isn't that big anyway.
I doubt in what's left of old gods we can enough compensation (they'd need (good) weapons and either burst or viable finishers to make up for that nerf), so what is left for Rogue? What is their identity? Where are the new combos cards, while Blizzard try their darndest to push pirates?
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On April 21 2016 03:00 TheYango wrote:
Rogue suffers due to the fact that it's always been the best positioned to abuse the non-interactivity of Hearthstone to do unfair things, so fair Rogue decks have pretty much always suffered as collateral damage from Blizzard not wanting the class to do too many unfair things (even though the kinds of cards they want are actually pretty different and it's not THAT hard to design Rogues toward fairer play).
They destroyed rogues ability to play fair in Beta and now instead of giving them any tools to do it they keep giving cards for archetypes the class can never support or if they could support it would just be a bad version of warrior/hunter. I thought just maybe we'd see some love for the class after all these years. Why did I fucking hope.
edit: Just realized that the changes to Blade Fury and Arcane Golem make the new rogue legendary way worse as well.
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On April 21 2016 03:00 Alaric wrote:That'd be like jumping in joy that Urgot's Q damage was reduced by 75% just because you don't like him. 
I've been happy over random LoL nerfs before haha
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I don't play HS very often but Rogue was the only class I liked, oh well.
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So first of we have Ron which is WAVEOFSHADOWS
The justification is Wave is values kindness and cares for us (unless he comes into the horcrux (Skull Girls) and has the bravery to overcome tough times and makes LLL a little more magical for all of us.
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On April 21 2016 03:06 Alaric wrote:
Then again you can argue that Mysterious Challenger is more interactive because you "can" play around all these secrets, even if it's at a huge value loss. Doesn't change the fact that the Paladin can drop it without second thoughts unless it kills him on the spot.
Plus, what have they given Rogue in exchange? We haven't seen all cards from old gods, but unless you play subpar decks such as Malygod or Miracle (which relied on flurry too because it doesn't have enough damage by itself otherwise—unless, again, you run Malygos) you need flurry to be a rogue. If not, you're relying on neutral minions to do your job so your identity isn't that big anyway.
I doubt in what's left of old gods we can enough compensation (they'd need (good) weapons and either burst or viable finishers to make up for that nerf), so what is left for Rogue? What is their identity? Where are the new combos cards, while Blizzard try their darndest to push pirates?
It's impossible too know but if Rogue is given some op spell damage shit it could utilize FoK and flurry for clears.
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Flurry is still 6+ mana because you need to have a weapon out, you can't just cast it for 0 damage, so it's ridiculously overcosted in that sense.
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Sure, but you can say the same thing for Shadowflame and it's still played competitively.
I won't argue that it's been nerfed super hard, but despite that I'm not sure it's actually a bad card even at 4 mana, it's just not the lynchpin it used to be.
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On April 21 2016 04:06 Seuss wrote:
Sure, but you can say the same thing for Shadowflame and it's still played competitively.
I won't argue that it's been nerfed super hard, but despite that I'm not sure it's actually a bad card even at 4 mana, it's just not the lynchpin it used to be.
Warlock has innate card advantage built into their class though. Shouldn't really compare cards across classes imo.
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There's nothing wrong with comparing cards across classes if you're prepared to consider the differences between the classes themselves as you do so.
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United States47024 Posts
Also, I feel like Blizzard's "make a coin" effects for rogue are a horribly unfocused design. Only unfair decks want effects that make Lotus Petals, but locking it behind a card that has to play a fair game to get the payoff can only lead to either a card nobody wants because its bad in both kinds of decks or a card everyone wants because it's so pushed.
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On April 21 2016 04:25 Seuss wrote:
There's nothing wrong with comparing cards across classes if you're prepared to consider the differences between the classes themselves as you do so.
I'm confused, you didn't do this though? So in your own words your comparison was wrong right?
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On April 21 2016 04:46 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 04:25 Seuss wrote:
There's nothing wrong with comparing cards across classes if you're prepared to consider the differences between the classes themselves as you do so.
I'm confused, you didn't do this though? So in your own words your comparison was wrong right?
No, he's prepared to consider the differences. Doesn't mean he articulated all of them 
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On April 21 2016 04:34 TheYango wrote:
Also, I feel like Blizzard's "make a coin" effects for rogue are a horribly unfocused design. Only unfair decks want effects that make Lotus Petals, but locking it behind a card that has to play a fair game to get the payoff can only lead to either a card nobody wants because its bad in both kinds of decks or a card everyone wants because it's so pushed.
Isn't it played anyway because Rogue doesn't have a choice, though?
Although you could point out that Miracle isn't actually a t1 deck so the point about it being played in a dck that doesn't care about the body is moot.
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It's important to point out that Rogue has 5 unrevealed cards at this point. Hopefully some of them will be making up for the Blade Flurry nerf.
Blade Flurry is likely the reason why Poisoned Blade was so awful, so while we probably won't see Poisoned Blade 2.0, we could see a Rogue weapon as universally strong for them as Death's Bite was for Warrior.
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The reason poisoned blade was so bad was because deadly poison/oil was so strong.
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On April 21 2016 05:16 Seuss wrote:
It's important to point out that Rogue has 5 unrevealed cards at this point. Hopefully some of them will be making up for the Blade Flurry nerf.
Blade Flurry is likely the reason why Poisoned Blade was so awful, so while we probably won't see Poisoned Blade 2.0, we could see a Rogue weapon as universally strong for them as Death's Bite was for Warrior.
Couldn't you apply this same logic as to why Warriors shouldn't have really good weapons? Warriors have the best defensive tools so the drawback of weapons is the lowest possible there where as rogue has zero options so they have the highest drawback of the card type
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Warrior gets good weapon to remove stuff with them, seeing how it lacks direct card draw and removal (execute requires something to get damaged, so either a card, a weapon charge+life, or damaging a minion; battle rage requires other stuff on board that took damage; shield slam/block plays on the defensive mechanic though).
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On April 21 2016 05:33 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 05:16 Seuss wrote:
It's important to point out that Rogue has 5 unrevealed cards at this point. Hopefully some of them will be making up for the Blade Flurry nerf.
Blade Flurry is likely the reason why Poisoned Blade was so awful, so while we probably won't see Poisoned Blade 2.0, we could see a Rogue weapon as universally strong for them as Death's Bite was for Warrior. Couldn't you apply this same logic as to why Warriors shouldn't have really good weapons? Warriors have the best defensive tools so the drawback of weapons is the lowest possible there where as rogue has zero options so they have the highest drawback of the card type
Yeah but Warriors don't have Blade Flurry. Their weapons can be strong because you can't hit -> destroy -> do damage to all enemies. Flurry burst combo was potentially bigger than Force/Savage if you had one minion to use it with. Granted it used more cards and was therefore more balanced, but they were obviously afraid of giving Rogues any uber weapons with the knowledge that they could "use" them twice in one turn to face.
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United States47024 Posts
Then why can't they just make Blade Flurry not damage face, lol.
Blizzard needs to figure out what the fuck they want to do with Rogue. Either accept that they've shoehorned the class into playing a degenerate combo deck because they've given them so many do-nothings that are useless outside a combo deck (0 mana do-nothings like Prep are only good in combo and completely useless to a fair deck) and change the game to allow that to be a reasonable way to play (print good cards for it but also print cards that actually interact with combos that can be played out of hand); or if you don't want your game to be played like that, kill the unfair combo plan by getting rid of the degenerate cards entirely and make the class capable of playing fair Hearthstone.
Right now they leave the combo game alive but are absolutely terrified of it actually being good because when combo rogue was good it made for absolutely miserable games because of how it played on an axis other decks couldn't interact with. So they just don't print good cards for the class and that kills the fair game plan.
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EPT
