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Stop arguing about what is or isn't killing tournaments. |
On January 20 2013 02:40 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:37 sAsImre wrote:On January 20 2013 02:34 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 20 2013 02:25 sAsImre wrote:On January 20 2013 02:24 Emzeeshady wrote:
Two factors for Protoss domination at this tournament
1. First and foremost there are simply better Protoss players here. First and Parting are far better then any Zerg players at this tournament and Daisey and Socke are arguably too.
2. Protoss was NEVER getting dominated by Zerg in the way people thought they were. There were times were Zerg was favoured by never even close to as bad as ZvT. ZvP changes hands on who is dominant very often. Tosses dominated the WCS's and then Zerg struck back with GSL 5. Protoss dominates Proleague then Zerg owns at Bliz cup. Not an imbalanced matchup, just very volatile. the problem is more that it's too often a shitty match up with a silly lategame than its balance. Oh I don't deny that (although todays games are fun) It is just that a lot of Toss players have been balance whining over this matchup. it's more about asymetric balance imo. I think a lot of good old 2b all in are still really good against lower lvl Z. But once your opponent has a ton of brood and infest, well, knowing you have maybe 10% of winning is a rather frustrating feeling. This made me laugh some people...
what's funny about this ?
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On January 20 2013 02:37 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:36 bokchoi wrote:
Korea TOO STRONK.
Time to see who the foreigner hope will be... Daisy!
Let's call him Gänseblümchen now.
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On January 20 2013 02:36 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:34 vthree wrote:On January 20 2013 02:31 Prog455 wrote:On January 20 2013 02:21 BretZ wrote:On January 20 2013 02:20 stuchiu wrote:
I wonder if its the downtime or the IT nerf that is helping protoss do so well in this tournament. I've honestly been wondering that the whole weekend. Is the IT nerf that bad for WoL? My HoTS games in PvZ have been going well when I'm usually losing convincingly. Does it really deter people that much to avoid ITs? I don't think it is bad for WoL, quite the opposite actually. But i do think that Zerg is doing worse because of the Infestor nerf. Next to every Zerg game i have seen the last few months has been an Infestor based build. Now that these builds don't work as well anymore Zerg players are forced to come up with new builds, and they may not have adapted quite yet. I am really looking forward to see how this patch is going to affect Zerg in future tournaments. I know that the term "patchzerg" is frowned upon, but i nevertheless think that it is a little funny the first tournament after Infestor nerf, has the worst Zerg representation of any major tournament in the last six months I think it has more to do with the line up more than anything. If you look at the IPL Korean qualifiers, zergs are doing better than fine. Not really the lineup actually has a lot of strong zergs if you look at it. A lot of it has to do with the group distribution, which resulted in most zerg players losing in group stages. You can't really take a single tournament such as the ipl qualifier to make a balance statement. Only two zergs did well - Jaedong, who is amazing, and Symbol, who scraped by multiple rounds with 2:1 wins.
Are you kidding me??? I was reply to a poster that just said the patch is really hurting zergs based on 1 tournament as well. And which tournament had the better line up ? IEM or IPL KOR qualifiers?
And no, it wasn't just JD and Symbol. Top 8 had 5 zergs.
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On January 20 2013 02:41 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:37 ACrow wrote:On January 20 2013 02:36 bokchoi wrote:
Korea TOO STRONK.
Time to see who the foreigner hope will be... Daisy! Let's call him Gänseblümchen now.
Too difficult for foreigners!
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I'm so cheering for you Kas, since the beginning of these IEM I want you to go far, like semis or finals. Come on !
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On January 20 2013 02:41 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:41 scypio wrote:On January 20 2013 02:37 ACrow wrote:On January 20 2013 02:36 bokchoi wrote:
Korea TOO STRONK.
Time to see who the foreigner hope will be... Daisy! Let's call him Gänseblümchen now. Too difficult for foreigners!
But that way he is at least German in name!
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On January 20 2013 02:42 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:41 StarVe wrote:On January 20 2013 02:41 scypio wrote:On January 20 2013 02:37 ACrow wrote:On January 20 2013 02:36 bokchoi wrote:
Korea TOO STRONK.
Time to see who the foreigner hope will be... Daisy! Let's call him Gänseblümchen now. Too difficult for foreigners! But that way he is at least German in name!
Yay, Germanized names, Däisi fighting!
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On January 20 2013 02:36 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:34 vthree wrote:On January 20 2013 02:31 Prog455 wrote:On January 20 2013 02:21 BretZ wrote:On January 20 2013 02:20 stuchiu wrote:
I wonder if its the downtime or the IT nerf that is helping protoss do so well in this tournament. I've honestly been wondering that the whole weekend. Is the IT nerf that bad for WoL? My HoTS games in PvZ have been going well when I'm usually losing convincingly. Does it really deter people that much to avoid ITs? I don't think it is bad for WoL, quite the opposite actually. But i do think that Zerg is doing worse because of the Infestor nerf. Next to every Zerg game i have seen the last few months has been an Infestor based build. Now that these builds don't work as well anymore Zerg players are forced to come up with new builds, and they may not have adapted quite yet. I am really looking forward to see how this patch is going to affect Zerg in future tournaments. I know that the term "patchzerg" is frowned upon, but i nevertheless think that it is a little funny the first tournament after Infestor nerf, has the worst Zerg representation of any major tournament in the last six months I think it has more to do with the line up more than anything. If you look at the IPL Korean qualifiers, zergs are doing better than fine. Not really the lineup actually has a lot of strong zergs if you look at it. A lot of it has to do with the group distribution, which resulted in most zerg players losing in group stages. You can't really take a single tournament such as the ipl qualifier to make a balance statement. Only two zergs did well - Jaedong, who is amazing, and Symbol, who scraped by multiple rounds with 2:1 wins.
As far as IEM goes, then there were not a large amount of top tier zergs, with only Snute, Nerchio and VortiX being part of the top, where as the rest is middle ish class, with bly/golden inbetween it all. I didn't see every game in the group stages, but I have seen all of the playoff, and TLO's play was disappointing, he got ahead and then just didn't follow it up properly, and Nerchio just played extremely greedy and got crushed.
And for the IPL, I don't even know how many of those games were shown, but probably not a huge amount, so you can't comment on that, and what is wrong with 2-1 wins?
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On January 20 2013 02:39 Dirkinity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:37 ACrow wrote:On January 20 2013 02:36 bokchoi wrote:
Korea TOO STRONK.
Time to see who the foreigner hope will be... Daisy! Too bad Daisy is korean. :D
We claim him for Germany
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On January 20 2013 02:43 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:41 sAsImre wrote:On January 20 2013 02:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 20 2013 02:37 sAsImre wrote:On January 20 2013 02:34 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 20 2013 02:25 sAsImre wrote:On January 20 2013 02:24 Emzeeshady wrote:
Two factors for Protoss domination at this tournament
1. First and foremost there are simply better Protoss players here. First and Parting are far better then any Zerg players at this tournament and Daisey and Socke are arguably too.
2. Protoss was NEVER getting dominated by Zerg in the way people thought they were. There were times were Zerg was favoured by never even close to as bad as ZvT. ZvP changes hands on who is dominant very often. Tosses dominated the WCS's and then Zerg struck back with GSL 5. Protoss dominates Proleague then Zerg owns at Bliz cup. Not an imbalanced matchup, just very volatile. the problem is more that it's too often a shitty match up with a silly lategame than its balance. Oh I don't deny that (although todays games are fun) It is just that a lot of Toss players have been balance whining over this matchup. it's more about asymetric balance imo. I think a lot of good old 2b all in are still really good against lower lvl Z. But once your opponent has a ton of brood and infest, well, knowing you have maybe 10% of winning is a rather frustrating feeling. This made me laugh some people... what's funny about this ? 2 base Protoss all ins go all the way to the top.
i was thinking about stuff that are no longer used like a +2 blink stalker all in. With proper control you can wreck most Z. Even 2b colo build have still some potential.
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On January 20 2013 02:41 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:36 goswser wrote:On January 20 2013 02:34 vthree wrote:On January 20 2013 02:31 Prog455 wrote:On January 20 2013 02:21 BretZ wrote:On January 20 2013 02:20 stuchiu wrote:
I wonder if its the downtime or the IT nerf that is helping protoss do so well in this tournament. I've honestly been wondering that the whole weekend. Is the IT nerf that bad for WoL? My HoTS games in PvZ have been going well when I'm usually losing convincingly. Does it really deter people that much to avoid ITs? I don't think it is bad for WoL, quite the opposite actually. But i do think that Zerg is doing worse because of the Infestor nerf. Next to every Zerg game i have seen the last few months has been an Infestor based build. Now that these builds don't work as well anymore Zerg players are forced to come up with new builds, and they may not have adapted quite yet. I am really looking forward to see how this patch is going to affect Zerg in future tournaments. I know that the term "patchzerg" is frowned upon, but i nevertheless think that it is a little funny the first tournament after Infestor nerf, has the worst Zerg representation of any major tournament in the last six months I think it has more to do with the line up more than anything. If you look at the IPL Korean qualifiers, zergs are doing better than fine. Not really the lineup actually has a lot of strong zergs if you look at it. A lot of it has to do with the group distribution, which resulted in most zerg players losing in group stages. You can't really take a single tournament such as the ipl qualifier to make a balance statement. Only two zergs did well - Jaedong, who is amazing, and Symbol, who scraped by multiple rounds with 2:1 wins. Are you kidding me??? I was reply to a poster that just said the patch is really hurting zergs based on 1 tournament as well. And which tournament had the better line up ? IEM or IPL KOR qualifiers? And no, it wasn't just JD and Symbol. Top 8 had 5 zergs.
To be fair, they were the cream of the crop in terms of Zergs. The five Zergs were Symbol, Jaedong, Monster, HyuN and DRG. The games we saw did not have much Infestor usage beyond the first game of Symbol vs Jaedong.
On January 20 2013 02:43 Hiea wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:36 goswser wrote:On January 20 2013 02:34 vthree wrote:On January 20 2013 02:31 Prog455 wrote:On January 20 2013 02:21 BretZ wrote:On January 20 2013 02:20 stuchiu wrote:
I wonder if its the downtime or the IT nerf that is helping protoss do so well in this tournament. I've honestly been wondering that the whole weekend. Is the IT nerf that bad for WoL? My HoTS games in PvZ have been going well when I'm usually losing convincingly. Does it really deter people that much to avoid ITs? I don't think it is bad for WoL, quite the opposite actually. But i do think that Zerg is doing worse because of the Infestor nerf. Next to every Zerg game i have seen the last few months has been an Infestor based build. Now that these builds don't work as well anymore Zerg players are forced to come up with new builds, and they may not have adapted quite yet. I am really looking forward to see how this patch is going to affect Zerg in future tournaments. I know that the term "patchzerg" is frowned upon, but i nevertheless think that it is a little funny the first tournament after Infestor nerf, has the worst Zerg representation of any major tournament in the last six months I think it has more to do with the line up more than anything. If you look at the IPL Korean qualifiers, zergs are doing better than fine. Not really the lineup actually has a lot of strong zergs if you look at it. A lot of it has to do with the group distribution, which resulted in most zerg players losing in group stages. You can't really take a single tournament such as the ipl qualifier to make a balance statement. Only two zergs did well - Jaedong, who is amazing, and Symbol, who scraped by multiple rounds with 2:1 wins. As far as IEM goes, then there were not a large amount of top tier zergs, with only Snute, Nerchio and VortiX being part of the top, where as the rest is middle ish class, with bly/golden inbetween it all. I didn't see every game in the group stages, but I have seen all of the playoff, and TLO's play was disappointing, he got ahead and then just didn't follow it up properly, and Nerchio just played extremely greedy and got crushed. And for the IPL, I don't even know how many of those games were shown, but probably not a huge amount, so you can't comment on that, and what is wrong with 2-1 wins?
I would have to agree, this tournament didn't have the best of the best, even in terms of Zergs. Nerchio is slumping, Snute isn't playing at the HSC level and VortiX disappointed. Imagine if HyuN or DRG came, then Zergs would be doing much better.
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On January 20 2013 02:44 nooboon wrote:
What team is Socke on now? Liquipedia has him listed being on aTn and ESC Icybox.
aTn
"Giacomo "Socke" (['zɔ.kə]) Thüs is a Protoss player from Germany, currently playing for Team ALTERNATE. "
Nothing about ESC?
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On January 20 2013 02:44 nooboon wrote:
What team is Socke on now? Liquipedia has him listed being on aTn and ESC Icybox.
He's still on aTn.
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On January 20 2013 02:40 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:37 sAsImre wrote:On January 20 2013 02:34 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 20 2013 02:25 sAsImre wrote:On January 20 2013 02:24 Emzeeshady wrote:
Two factors for Protoss domination at this tournament
1. First and foremost there are simply better Protoss players here. First and Parting are far better then any Zerg players at this tournament and Daisey and Socke are arguably too.
2. Protoss was NEVER getting dominated by Zerg in the way people thought they were. There were times were Zerg was favoured by never even close to as bad as ZvT. ZvP changes hands on who is dominant very often. Tosses dominated the WCS's and then Zerg struck back with GSL 5. Protoss dominates Proleague then Zerg owns at Bliz cup. Not an imbalanced matchup, just very volatile. the problem is more that it's too often a shitty match up with a silly lategame than its balance. Oh I don't deny that (although todays games are fun) It is just that a lot of Toss players have been balance whining over this matchup. it's more about asymetric balance imo. I think a lot of good old 2b all in are still really good against lower lvl Z. But once your opponent has a ton of brood and infest, well, knowing you have maybe 10% of winning is a rather frustrating feeling. This made me laugh some people...
You don't play zerg do you? You don't see 2b all ins at the korean pro level because they have nearly flawless play for ~10 mins but its so incredibly easy to die against a protoss on two base. Miss a warp prism? gg. Scout 4 gate so you think its that pressure but it was 7? gg. Stargate into a quick warpgate all in or a later collosus all in have seen a lot of success too, lately... really hard to stop since you have little to no scouting.
Just because you haven't seen it so often doesn't mean it's not something Zerg players look out for and worry about, and that delays your late game tech. Sure TLO is not at the same level as First, but in game one he thought first was going into a third so he was just macroing heavily and teching (which he MUST do against a quick protoss third if he wants to play the late game) and he missed the warp prism... PvZ midgame is a lot more tricky than you think!
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On January 20 2013 02:44 PhoenixVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 02:41 vthree wrote:On January 20 2013 02:36 goswser wrote:On January 20 2013 02:34 vthree wrote:On January 20 2013 02:31 Prog455 wrote:On January 20 2013 02:21 BretZ wrote:On January 20 2013 02:20 stuchiu wrote:
I wonder if its the downtime or the IT nerf that is helping protoss do so well in this tournament. I've honestly been wondering that the whole weekend. Is the IT nerf that bad for WoL? My HoTS games in PvZ have been going well when I'm usually losing convincingly. Does it really deter people that much to avoid ITs? I don't think it is bad for WoL, quite the opposite actually. But i do think that Zerg is doing worse because of the Infestor nerf. Next to every Zerg game i have seen the last few months has been an Infestor based build. Now that these builds don't work as well anymore Zerg players are forced to come up with new builds, and they may not have adapted quite yet. I am really looking forward to see how this patch is going to affect Zerg in future tournaments. I know that the term "patchzerg" is frowned upon, but i nevertheless think that it is a little funny the first tournament after Infestor nerf, has the worst Zerg representation of any major tournament in the last six months I think it has more to do with the line up more than anything. If you look at the IPL Korean qualifiers, zergs are doing better than fine. Not really the lineup actually has a lot of strong zergs if you look at it. A lot of it has to do with the group distribution, which resulted in most zerg players losing in group stages. You can't really take a single tournament such as the ipl qualifier to make a balance statement. Only two zergs did well - Jaedong, who is amazing, and Symbol, who scraped by multiple rounds with 2:1 wins. Are you kidding me??? I was reply to a poster that just said the patch is really hurting zergs based on 1 tournament as well. And which tournament had the better line up ? IEM or IPL KOR qualifiers? And no, it wasn't just JD and Symbol. Top 8 had 5 zergs. To be fair, they were the cream of the crop in terms of Zergs. The five Zergs were Symbol, Jaedong, Monster, HyuN and DRG. The games we saw did not have much Infestor usage beyond the first game of Symbol vs Jaedong.
And there were cream of the crop terrans and Protosses there as well. So not sure what your point is. It proves that zergs never really NEEDED infestors as much as they claimed...
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EPT
