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If you spoil the results of the tournament, you will be banned. |
Australia8532 Posts
On April 12 2011 08:03 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I wonder, do folks in this community want casters and players to get involved in the discussion or not? You can't have it both ways, either you accept that a personality will get involved in the discussion or you'd prefer we all just stay aloof and away from it. Which is it to be? Not when the caster has no business being involved in the discussion in the first place. I said IGN, get better casters. Then you come with "wait no I'm good wtf are you talking about? You're wrong because thousands of people like me" response. Doesn't change the fact that I think you're bad for IGN.
Your opinion has way less business in this thread than TB's. We get it, you don't like his casting style - believe it or not nobody cares about your opinion. He has a solid fanbase and attracts a lot of viewers to whatever he casts. So he doesn't suit your taste? Congratulations. Please stop cluttering this thread with absolutely useless words. You aren't going to convince anyone, let alone TB himself, that IGN have made a bad move here.
Your argument just comes across as childish as you scramble to find the words to say "I don't like TB so neither should you." And to be honest the moment i read "when you're bad, you're bad no need to rationalize it" i knew you were a joke.
While i appreciate TB getting involved in the community forums can we take this somewhere else if you two want to continue it so we can have an IGN thread again?
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On April 12 2011 08:13 leakingpear wrote:
You don't get it, I'm not dismissing anyone, I'm perfectly accepting of people having points despite presenting them in a manner that implies they have some emotional investment in the subject they're talking about. And honestly when I make an entire post about disregarding stuff out of hand and you disregard something out of hand and call said poster a hypocrite, it's really one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.
Let me remind you of your stellar opening in this thread
Man I wish I was a youtube celebrity, you don't have to actually try at anything but marketing yourself and propagating your own image, it's just/exactly like being a reality tv star!
And you now expect to be taken seriously. Next time, try a different opening, this build isn't working for you.
While i appreciate TB getting involved in the community forums can we take this somewhere else if you two want to continue it so we can have an IGN thread again?
Yes I apologise for those who are feeling put out because of this discussion. I'll take a step back from it so as not to add more fuel to the fire.
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May I also add that TB have (pretty much) always posted like this. After all, he is The Cynical Brit.
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On April 12 2011 08:10 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 07:51 leakingpear wrote:On April 12 2011 07:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Well now that you guys have successfully marginalised yourselves firmly into the camp of trolling and can't be taken seriously anymore, I think we're done here. A shame that some people are incapable of civilised discussion. I'm not trolling, i'm pointing out the absurdity of you calling everyone who brings up any negative point about your content a troll just because they don't align with your viewpoint. You do this in every single thread and never remotely accept any of the valid criticisms of anything you ever do. Please stop. Emperor's criticism isn't really constructive. Not at all, even. He's apparently incapable of grasping that casting only for an incredibly small niche (in this case the tl.net audience) would destroy any potential of Starcraft 2 growing as an e-sport (marketing 101: viewer count >>>>> caster's knowledge because a high viewer count = faster growing audience = more money from sponsors = growth). He's also completely incapable of distinguishing his own opinion from dry facts. He basically finds Mr. Totalbiscuit a bad caster, and therefore sees it as a fact that said caster is bad. That's kind of arrogant, even. Adjectives like bad, good, horrible, extraordinary etc. are all a matter of taste, not a matter of fact. There are no objective measures for things being good or bad, unless something is universally thought of as such. Even then we've only got "public opinion" and not "fact." A fact is something that can be rationally proven by means of rationally acquired evidence. Opinions are irrational because they stem from a person's own preference, which is generally emotional in nature.
Ok let me clear up a few things, when referring to people who criticise him I'm referring to a vast gamut of posters from this and previous threads who tend to have badly formed opinions but still have valid criticisms within them.
The second thing is the idea that everyone should care about what makes e-sports more successful, like my enjoyment of the game is intrinsically linked to how successful professional players are in terms of finance and celebrity status. I get that Day9 wants it to happen, but I don't agree in this bizarre idea that we should promote absolutely everything regardless of relative value in order to appease the grand advertising and television gods who will take us to the promised land where everywhere is like Korea during the BW heyday, because Korea really wasn't that great if you look at it remotely realistically.
With regards to facts and opinions and other handy ways to derail arguments into existential conundrums about how all facts are opinion and all opinions are facts and rationality is subjective and blah blah blah, common sense and basic logic skills can help you work out what is worth paying attention to even in a predominantly negative opinion post. If someone says 'you are terrible you don't know anything about the game' you can safely ignore the relative term/insult 'you are terrible' and then question yourself as to whether the second part is true or not. You don't just have to walk past the entire post based on the perceived intent of the original poster.
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On April 12 2011 08:02 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 07:54 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 12 2011 07:48 tehemperorer wrote:On April 12 2011 07:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Well now that you guys have successfully marginalised yourselves firmly into the camp of trolling and can't be taken seriously anymore, I think we're done here. A shame that some people are incapable of civilised discussion. Wasn't meant to be a discussion. If you're bad, you're bad, there's no use trying to rationalize/spin it. Yet the masses don't think he is bad. Hence why he is so popular and why IGN is paying him to commentate the IPL Yet the masses themselves are bad. They won't know bad when they see it, but they will know good. When they see good, they will then look at bad in a different way, and that's bad for IGN. Popular =/= good.
I know nearly every caster out there, and watch tons of streams daily.
And I really like TBs commentary, its the most professional out there imo.
Who are you that you think you can tell everyone which caster they should like and which not? If you dont like TB fine, dont watch it. I have also several casters I dont like. I dont watch their stuff, but I dont go around telling others that these casters are bad and that they should not be watched or hired. This stuff sorts itsself out automatically with the viewer count.
Apart from that I really dont like how in many threads most of the discussion is about casters and not the game. Sometimes I get the impression people think we are watching caster competions and not starcraft competitions.
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United States22883 Posts
tehemperorer and leakingpear, you've made your point that you don't like TB. We get it, drop it. Your criticism has not been constructive in the slightest. It seems to me that you just came here looking for an argument, and you got it.
Now stop. If you want to give feedback on the casting, post about it in an intelligent way, and then wait for the actual casting to begin.
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On April 12 2011 08:16 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:13 leakingpear wrote:
You don't get it, I'm not dismissing anyone, I'm perfectly accepting of people having points despite presenting them in a manner that implies they have some emotional investment in the subject they're talking about. And honestly when I make an entire post about disregarding stuff out of hand and you disregard something out of hand and call said poster a hypocrite, it's really one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. Let me remind you of your stellar opening in this thread Show nested quote +
Man I wish I was a youtube celebrity, you don't have to actually try at anything but marketing yourself and propagating your own image, it's just/exactly like being a reality tv star!
And you now expect to be taken seriously. Next time, try a different opening, this build isn't working for you.
Why on earth do you keep reinforcing it then? Why did you selectively quote the second part of that post and ignore the first part about this very subject that I keep bringing up and I'm still honestly waiting for you to answer. Why do you keep treating me and anyone else who brings up problems with your casting like you're a christian fundamentalist trying to avoid any logical question from an atheist about your faith? Why are you placing that sort of grandiose battle between good and evil, troll and not troll rhetoric that's entirely out of place in any sort of discussion?
Why are you so scared of admitting any form of wrong to the point that it negatively affects your ability to do your job well?
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On April 12 2011 08:25 Jibba wrote:
tehemperorer, you've made your point that you don't like TB. We get it, drop it. Your criticism has not been constructive in the slightest. It seems to me that you just came here looking for an argument, and you got it.
Now stop. If you want to give feedback on the casting, post about it in an intelligent way, and then wait for the actual casting to begin.
Thanks Jibba, fair enough.
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On April 12 2011 08:02 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 07:54 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 12 2011 07:48 tehemperorer wrote:On April 12 2011 07:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Well now that you guys have successfully marginalised yourselves firmly into the camp of trolling and can't be taken seriously anymore, I think we're done here. A shame that some people are incapable of civilised discussion. Wasn't meant to be a discussion. If you're bad, you're bad, there's no use trying to rationalize/spin it. Yet the masses don't think he is bad. Hence why he is so popular and why IGN is paying him to commentate the IPL Yet the masses themselves are bad. They won't know bad when they see it, but they will know good. When they see good, they will then look at bad in a different way, and that's bad for IGN. Popular =/= good.
So you don't want to see the growth of sc2 or eSports in the west? You want this to be like it was in BW. Because this is really what you are implying.
How are the masses bad? Bad at the game? What does that matter? Popular doesn't equal good in your mind, but in the minds of the masses, who IGN is trying to appeal to, it does equal good. That is why they are popular. People want to hear them. You have your opinion. And the thousands that like TB and HD have theirs. Guess whose resonates more with IGN? Yes, the thousands of "bad" people that are in the masses that are dictating where this game goes and how it grows.
If the masses in sc2 are bad, then they are bad in every sport. I don't think you really understand this.
And your statement about saying someone should go watch TV and not starcraft is the exact attitude that is going to hinder the growth of eSports. Stop being such an elitist and realize that noobs are just as important to this community as the top master player. In fact they are more important because its a larger audience.
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Braavos36390 Posts
Everyone please stop derailing the thread into a discussion about this crap, thanks.
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Australia8532 Posts
On April 12 2011 08:25 Jibba wrote:
tehemperorer and leakingpear, you've made your point that you don't like TB. We get it, drop it. Your criticism has not been constructive in the slightest. It seems to me that you just came here looking for an argument, and you got it.
Now stop. If you want to give feedback on the casting, post about it in an intelligent way, and then wait for the actual casting to begin.
On April 12 2011 08:41 Hot_Bid wrote:
Everyone please stop derailing the thread into a discussion about this crap, thanks.
Thank you - i think IGN called and they want their thread back :p
I am excited to see the production values that they seem to be so focussed on; seems to be a big part of what they want to be about - maybe they have solved the desynching issue with replays :O or found a way to watch replays with friends 
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Honestly I can get behind Hot Bid's request but Jibba how on earth you concluded I wasn't giving any constructive criticism I don't know.
It's also worth noting that this is the only place I come where TB actively engages people and considering any remotely negative thread about him would get closed and has been, there is reason to have high visibility of that discussion when it comes to TOs choosing casters for major events, regardless of where they end up on the issue they should be aware of the highly divisive nature of his work.
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Now that things are back on track...
I'm stoked to see this kicking off. With luck it'll only grow and attract a more varied line up (both players and casters). If the $$ and viewership aligns behind it that'll totally happen.
For longer series I'd love to see more interviews and stories about the path players have taken to reach a particular final. A longer season will introduce all sorts of drama, unexpected losses and hopefully some new heroes!
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On April 12 2011 07:31 tehemperorer wrote:
Hence my original comment of "get better casters." IGN I'm sure wants to put their best foot forward, and not build up viewer numbers by finding out what works and what doesn't. There's going to be some degree of that going on, but knowing from the start what is bad and what is good without having to find it out by trial and error will definitely help the viewer numbers.
I say we give IGN the room to experiment and watch the games with an open mind.
IGN isn't spending much money on this or risking very much. ESPN risked a lot more putting Shulman on NCAA Basketball and professional baseball. Dan worked out fine. TotalBiscuit knows more about SC2 than Shulman knew about NCAA basketball and pro baseball.
I'm just your average SC2 viewer.... and....
TotalBiscuit sounds "ok" to me ..
he has a built in following of viewers that he has created...so...
I say.... give the old man a shot and let's see what happens!
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I must say thank you to IGN for recognizing SC2 as an important and influential game and potential eSport. I work as an analyst for advertising agencies and represent many of the largest and most recognizeable brands on the market. I have long believed that the SC2 community contained a highly desirable audience for brands to advertise to. It however takes the actions of a premier publisher like IGN to get brands excited about what they would consider to be a niche audience.
Thanks to IGN you will begin to see brands that you might not consider endemic to the hardcore gaming community getting on board. It will make it easier for me to sell through SC2 to my clients as a real and desirable advertising opportunity. And we all know that it will take major advertising partners in order for SC2 as a legitimate sport to be recognized.
Please support IGN and NASL by viewing the events as much as possible and by telling your friends and continueing to post online and on your twitter and facebook accounts. Become a proud SC2 and eSports advocate and all our dreams will begin to come true.
Thanks again IGN and and I'll be in contact to bring brands on board!
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Australia8532 Posts
IGN is owned by Newscorp i think - which is owned by Rupert Murdoch..
Big things can come if SC2 proves it is worthy of great sponsorship support for this proleague can go a really long way!!
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Get Painuser to cast :D
Awesomeness!
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Man guys take it easy..... No need to scrutinize before the product is even delivered, give everyone a chance, myself included. Then decide what you think based on the quality of work. All you can do right now is speculate and complain if it's negative. Just hope for the best and see what happens. HD and I have been working on our dual casting pretty hard for this tournament.
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On April 12 2011 08:41 Hot_Bid wrote:
Everyone please stop derailing the thread into a discussion about this crap, thanks.
So fierce, Ken, so fierce.
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On April 12 2011 07:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Well now that you guys have successfully marginalised yourselves firmly into the camp of trolling and can't be taken seriously anymore, I think we're done here. A shame that some people are incapable of civilised discussion.
It's the internet...
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