• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:05
CEST 16:05
KST 23:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview8[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21
Community News
[TLMC] Summer 2026 Ladder Map Rotation05.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start)34ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo23Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested0RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 202611
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start) Daily SC2 Player Grid - feedback wanted SC2 Planner - The StarCraft II Build Planner [TLMC] Summer 2026 Ladder Map Rotation StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament GSL CK #4 20-21th June Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 531 Experimental Artillery Mutation # 530 One For All Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed
Brood War
General
Fact based Zerg Upgrade Tier List BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ STARCRAFT MOVIE - Last Night at the Command center BW General Discussion Battle cruiser feet vs Carrier fleet
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSLAN 4 is Coming! Small VOD Thread 2.0 The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Relatively freeroll strategies Creating a full chart of Zerg builds
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo Beyond All Reason Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread [H]Internet/Gaming Cafe Tips and Tricks The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How To Predict Tilt in Espor…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6987 users

IV Titanic Mafia: It Has Been a Privilege - Page 25

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 23 24 25 26 27 166 Next
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
July 23 2014 11:39 GMT
#481
I replace Xatalos with GlowingBear in my townlist.
I had a good night of sleep.
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22394 Posts
July 23 2014 11:39 GMT
#482
It's cool that your opinion differs Koshi but I don't see why you spend so much talking about townreads and mechanics and the terrible idea of vets claiming when you don't have an own scumread to push behind it that warrants you taking the wind out of other peoples sails to push your own preference.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
July 23 2014 11:40 GMT
#483
On July 23 2014 20:39 Vivax wrote:
It's cool that your opinion differs Koshi but I don't see why you spend so much talking about townreads and mechanics and the terrible idea of vets claiming when you don't have an own scumread to push behind it that warrants you taking the wind out of other peoples sails to push your own preference.

##unvote
##vote: Vivax


Bite me.
I had a good night of sleep.
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22394 Posts
July 23 2014 11:43 GMT
#484
On July 23 2014 20:38 Xatalos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 20:32 Vivax wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:31 Xatalos wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:29 Vivax wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:28 Xatalos wrote:
Huh. Apparently Vivax is about 5x more active and involved in the game as town compared to his scum play.

Right now he seems to be leaning scum.


Does it make you want to lynch navi less.


Somewhat


So you don't feel the reasons Palmar gave are strong enough to warrant a lynch on their own regardless of who's agreeing with them to head for that lynch?


I feel like Palmar made a reasonable early case, but it's far from conclusive. It's hard to have a conclusive case on D1 really. And you playing more to your scum meta + wanting to lynch Navillus isn't very encouraging.


On July 23 2014 18:48 Xatalos wrote:
Navillus could be scum. Reasonably likely is. His posts are pretty inconclusive and weak despite having a lot of text. Leaving a lot of options open for future actions.


Looks to me like you felt it's conclusive enough so that you would add your own reasons on top of it before throwing it away cause one guy on it plays to his scum meta in your unverified opinion.
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
July 23 2014 11:44 GMT
#485
Koshi: Navillus has posted a ton of opinions, but don't you think they're pretty inconclusive and weak? Granted it's D1, but some of his posts feel like... "It could be X, but it could be Y" leaving his options as open as possible.
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Teemursu
Profile Joined June 2014
Finland839 Posts
July 23 2014 11:46 GMT
#486
On July 23 2014 20:32 Navillus wrote:
I am going to keep trying to get conversation about things that I think I can make reads off of, but my last thought is the votes on me happened very fast with not much said. Palmer seems fine, he made a real case and I honestly agree with his points for how that post looks, it's a bad post. But not bad enough to deserve 2 or 3 people immediately bandwagoning with literally no elaboration.


On July 23 2014 19:31 Chopin Liszt wrote:
so why are we lynching navillus?


Why do -you- think we shouldn't? You voted on him with Palmar, and are now giving him a pass.

Navillus, What do you think of CL? If the bolded is true, I'd rather hear your thoughts on the alignments of the people who did that.

On July 23 2014 04:27 Chopin Liszt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 04:00 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Yeah, this game is really slow.

Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 04:17 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Let's kill Koshi for accepting the fact that it's slow and then not trying to fix it.

##unvote
##vote Koshi


You must have very long dreadlocks
All you do is speak in paradox

##vote ObiWanShinobi

Funny that I see this only now. I thought about pointing this out as well while I was on my phone.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
July 23 2014 11:46 GMT
#487
On July 23 2014 20:44 Xatalos wrote:
Koshi: Navillus has posted a ton of opinions, but don't you think they're pretty inconclusive and weak? Granted it's D1, but some of his posts feel like... "It could be X, but it could be Y" leaving his options as open as possible.

What the fuck do you expect that early? At least he is doing something.

In how many games is scum giving their opinion on literally everybody and anything that happens in the game as only one in the thread?


Palmar / Vivax are probably scum this game.
I had a good night of sleep.
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
July 23 2014 11:47 GMT
#488
On July 23 2014 20:43 Vivax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 20:38 Xatalos wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:32 Vivax wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:31 Xatalos wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:29 Vivax wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:28 Xatalos wrote:
Huh. Apparently Vivax is about 5x more active and involved in the game as town compared to his scum play.

Right now he seems to be leaning scum.


Does it make you want to lynch navi less.


Somewhat


So you don't feel the reasons Palmar gave are strong enough to warrant a lynch on their own regardless of who's agreeing with them to head for that lynch?


I feel like Palmar made a reasonable early case, but it's far from conclusive. It's hard to have a conclusive case on D1 really. And you playing more to your scum meta + wanting to lynch Navillus isn't very encouraging.


Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 18:48 Xatalos wrote:
Navillus could be scum. Reasonably likely is. His posts are pretty inconclusive and weak despite having a lot of text. Leaving a lot of options open for future actions.


Looks to me like you felt it's conclusive enough so that you would add your own reasons on top of it before throwing it away cause one guy on it plays to his scum meta in your unverified opinion.


Let's get the wagon of justice going.

##Unvote
##Vote Vivax
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
July 23 2014 11:49 GMT
#489
On July 23 2014 20:46 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 20:44 Xatalos wrote:
Koshi: Navillus has posted a ton of opinions, but don't you think they're pretty inconclusive and weak? Granted it's D1, but some of his posts feel like... "It could be X, but it could be Y" leaving his options as open as possible.

What the fuck do you expect that early? At least he is doing something.

In how many games is scum giving their opinion on literally everybody and anything that happens in the game as only one in the thread?


Palmar / Vivax are probably scum this game.


Palmar?
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22394 Posts
July 23 2014 11:51 GMT
#490
On July 23 2014 20:46 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 20:44 Xatalos wrote:
Koshi: Navillus has posted a ton of opinions, but don't you think they're pretty inconclusive and weak? Granted it's D1, but some of his posts feel like... "It could be X, but it could be Y" leaving his options as open as possible.

What the fuck do you expect that early? At least he is doing something.

In how many games is scum giving their opinion on literally everybody and anything that happens in the game as only one in the thread?


Palmar / Vivax are probably scum this game.


This is a very hyperbole statement about navi and displays you're not critically reading his posts, I am sure you can back up that he's doing exactly that with quotes if you are indeed right.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
July 23 2014 11:53 GMT
#491
On July 23 2014 20:49 Xatalos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 20:46 Koshi wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:44 Xatalos wrote:
Koshi: Navillus has posted a ton of opinions, but don't you think they're pretty inconclusive and weak? Granted it's D1, but some of his posts feel like... "It could be X, but it could be Y" leaving his options as open as possible.

What the fuck do you expect that early? At least he is doing something.

In how many games is scum giving their opinion on literally everybody and anything that happens in the game as only one in the thread?


Palmar / Vivax are probably scum this game.


Palmar?

Palmar hasn't done anything this game. Literally nothing. I wouldn't be too bothered with Palmar doing nothing but he made this shitty case on Navillus so he is on the table.

I also know I somewhere said it wasn't shitty but now I think it is shitty because I read Navillus his filter.
I had a good night of sleep.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
July 23 2014 11:53 GMT
#492
On July 23 2014 20:51 Vivax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 20:46 Koshi wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:44 Xatalos wrote:
Koshi: Navillus has posted a ton of opinions, but don't you think they're pretty inconclusive and weak? Granted it's D1, but some of his posts feel like... "It could be X, but it could be Y" leaving his options as open as possible.

What the fuck do you expect that early? At least he is doing something.

In how many games is scum giving their opinion on literally everybody and anything that happens in the game as only one in the thread?


Palmar / Vivax are probably scum this game.


This is a very hyperbole statement about navi and displays you're not critically reading his posts, I am sure you can back up that he's doing exactly that with quotes if you are indeed right.

What are you even saying?
I had a good night of sleep.
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22394 Posts
July 23 2014 11:55 GMT
#493
I'm saying that what you say isn't correct. He talks about post formatting and Xatalos, and replies to a guy asking him about someone else in the first posts you quoted as being townie and giving his thoughts freely.

tl;dr: The reasons you use for reading him seem fake, and what you said in the last post I quoted is a gross exaggeration of what he's supposedly doing.
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22394 Posts
July 23 2014 11:58 GMT
#494
You are hereby added to the people eligible for lynch. Fend yourself as you see fit.
Teemursu
Profile Joined June 2014
Finland839 Posts
July 23 2014 12:00 GMT
#495
On July 23 2014 20:44 Xatalos wrote:
Koshi: Navillus has posted a ton of opinions, but don't you think they're pretty inconclusive and weak? Granted it's D1, but some of his posts feel like... "It could be X, but it could be Y" leaving his options as open as possible.


+ Show Spoiler +
On July 23 2014 18:48 Xatalos wrote:
Navillus could be scum. Reasonably likely is. His posts are pretty inconclusive and weak despite having a lot of text. Leaving a lot of options open for future actions.


On July 23 2014 19:42 Xatalos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 18:54 Navillus wrote:
Hey xatalos, nice to see you also think that palmer's analysis is enough and you don't need to contribute, so what do you think about Kush's defenses of you and what do you think of Obiwan?


Well, kush is 100% correct and probably slightly towny for that.

ObiWan doesn't look too bad. He seems more frustrated than scared of pressure. I don't like the way he complained about the thread atmosphere several times. Posts like that are just... useless and potentially scummy.


+some other wishy washy posts.

On July 23 2014 06:16 Xatalos wrote:

Koshi can look scummy during D1 as town so it's not usually a good time to lynch him. I'm generally active regardless of my alignment, and I become a (somewhat) valuable asset throughout the game as town and I tend to reveal myself more easily later on as scum (+leaving material to work with). Neither of us are ideal D1 lynches.


This literally means nothing. You talked about your scum meta in other posts as well, and I haven't really liked your other posts either, you haven't really taken a strong stance on anyone alignment-wise either, while not trying to figure out alignments either ("person X appears as scummy when town and person Y is hard to read, just give him a pass"), and I think you're being a bit hypocritical by doing it. It's like, you're leaving your options open.

You're on my radar.
Teemursu
Profile Joined June 2014
Finland839 Posts
July 23 2014 12:01 GMT
#496
On July 23 2014 20:53 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 20:49 Xatalos wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:46 Koshi wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:44 Xatalos wrote:
Koshi: Navillus has posted a ton of opinions, but don't you think they're pretty inconclusive and weak? Granted it's D1, but some of his posts feel like... "It could be X, but it could be Y" leaving his options as open as possible.

What the fuck do you expect that early? At least he is doing something.

In how many games is scum giving their opinion on literally everybody and anything that happens in the game as only one in the thread?


Palmar / Vivax are probably scum this game.


Palmar?

Palmar hasn't done anything this game. Literally nothing. I wouldn't be too bothered with Palmar doing nothing but he made this shitty case on Navillus so he is on the table.

I also know I somewhere said it wasn't shitty but now I think it is shitty because I read Navillus his filter.

What about his case was shitty?
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
July 23 2014 12:01 GMT
#497
On July 23 2014 20:55 Vivax wrote:
I'm saying that what you say isn't correct. He talks about post formatting and Xatalos, and replies to a guy asking him about someone else in the first posts you quoted as being townie and giving his thoughts freely.

tl;dr: The reasons you use for reading him seem fake, and what you said in the last post I quoted is a gross exaggeration of what he's supposedly doing.

When he was doing that. You were doing completely nothing.

what he was doing > what you were doing.

lynching him < lynching you


It's math.
I had a good night of sleep.
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22394 Posts
July 23 2014 12:01 GMT
#498
This game will be easy.
Teemursu
Profile Joined June 2014
Finland839 Posts
July 23 2014 12:05 GMT
#499
On July 23 2014 20:53 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 20:49 Xatalos wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:46 Koshi wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:44 Xatalos wrote:
Koshi: Navillus has posted a ton of opinions, but don't you think they're pretty inconclusive and weak? Granted it's D1, but some of his posts feel like... "It could be X, but it could be Y" leaving his options as open as possible.

What the fuck do you expect that early? At least he is doing something.

In how many games is scum giving their opinion on literally everybody and anything that happens in the game as only one in the thread?


Palmar / Vivax are probably scum this game.


Palmar?

Palmar hasn't done anything this game. Literally nothing. I wouldn't be too bothered with Palmar doing nothing but he made this shitty case on Navillus so he is on the table.

I also know I somewhere said it wasn't shitty but now I think it is shitty because I read Navillus his filter.


Just noticed this. Let me rephrase the question. What about Palmar's case was bad until Navillus had his follow up posts?

Why can't TL have some kind of avatar/profile picture system. It's sometimes harder than necessary/confusing to differentiate between who's posting what. >_>
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
July 23 2014 12:05 GMT
#500
On July 23 2014 21:01 Teemursu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 20:53 Koshi wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:49 Xatalos wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:46 Koshi wrote:
On July 23 2014 20:44 Xatalos wrote:
Koshi: Navillus has posted a ton of opinions, but don't you think they're pretty inconclusive and weak? Granted it's D1, but some of his posts feel like... "It could be X, but it could be Y" leaving his options as open as possible.

What the fuck do you expect that early? At least he is doing something.

In how many games is scum giving their opinion on literally everybody and anything that happens in the game as only one in the thread?


Palmar / Vivax are probably scum this game.


Palmar?

Palmar hasn't done anything this game. Literally nothing. I wouldn't be too bothered with Palmar doing nothing but he made this shitty case on Navillus so he is on the table.

I also know I somewhere said it wasn't shitty but now I think it is shitty because I read Navillus his filter.

What about his case was shitty?

He didn't take into account any other post Navillus made. Navillus was at that point already asking mass questions. Navillus was not timid. Navillus was not hiding.

Navillus gave his opinion and asked MULTIPLE questions in different posts later on. Everything Palmar said sounded correct if you look at that 1 post from Navillus. But if you open his filter you can clearly see that Palmar pulled the post out of its context.
I had a good night of sleep.
Prev 1 23 24 25 26 27 166 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #136
herO vs PercivalLIVE!
TBD vs SHIN
CranKy Ducklings297
Ryung 171
SHIN 91
CranKy Ducklings SOOP13
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
LamboSC2 660
Ryung 199
Rex 128
SHIN 95
StarCraft: Brood War
Jaedong 1774
Mini 1186
firebathero 847
Shuttle 755
EffOrt 624
Light 559
Hyuk 516
Soma 444
actioN 264
Snow 232
[ Show more ]
Soulkey 214
Rush 204
ggaemo 195
Mong 177
Zeus 166
hero 94
Sharp 77
Sea.KH 75
[sc1f]eonzerg 61
Hyun 59
Movie 58
ToSsGirL 50
JulyZerg 39
sorry 38
Free 37
PianO 32
scan(afreeca) 23
JYJ 21
Shine 19
GoRush 19
Hm[arnc] 15
Sacsri 14
ajuk12(nOOB) 8
Terrorterran 8
Dota 2
Gorgc7032
Dendi1117
syndereN232
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1334
ScreaM787
Other Games
singsing2276
B2W.Neo1173
Lowko610
DeMusliM229
Pyrionflax165
QueenE66
Trikslyr16
BEARDiaguz12
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream7183
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2251
• Nemesis1172
• TFBlade787
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
19h 55m
Douyu Cup 2020
1d 14h
Oliveira vs Trap
Jieshi vs XY
soO vs FanTaSy
TY vs Coffee
OSC
2 days
Douyu Cup 2020
2 days
Neeb vs Impact
MacSed vs Cyan
Scarlett vs Kelazhur
INnoVation vs Dear
Douyu Cup 2020
3 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
herO vs Classic
Maru vs Serral
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
3 days
Douyu Cup 2020
4 days
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
4 days
Online Event
5 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-06-19
WardiTV Spring 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 1
SCTL 2026 Spring
Maestros of the Game 2
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026

Upcoming

CSL Season 21: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Douyu Cup 2026
BCC 2026
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E1
Heroes Pulsing #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.