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For those of you who are unfamiliar with what a tower rush is, I've located some illuminating videos:
Warcraft 2:
Warcraft 2
more warcraft 2
Starcraft Brood War:
Bisu does it too
Warcraft 3:
war3
Happens to Grubby!
Starcraft 2:
grandmaster cannon rushing
(All the better examples are MLG or GSL games, DRG went down one game on Antiga Shipyard somewhat recently for example)
I would like to humbly suggest that the tower rush is one of many stupid, incompetent game design inclusions consistently allowed to exist in blizzard RTS games and has been infuriating people on ladder for literally decades now.
I'd like this thread to tackle the issue of persistent cheesy builds.
Poll: Are you sick of cheesy builds in RTS games?I like some cheese in the game (96) 77% I'm sick of cheese (14) 11% I love cheese, lets get rid of the lategame (12) 10% Don't hate the player, hate the game (2) 2% 124 total votes Your vote: Are you sick of cheesy builds in RTS games? (Vote): I love cheese, lets get rid of the lategame
(Vote): I'm sick of cheese
(Vote): I like some cheese in the game
(Vote): Don't hate the player, hate the game
Assuming that I'm not alone here, I wouldn't mind trying to convince blizzard to try to cut back on dumb strategies in their games and focus more on quality.
I mean, Leenock won a GSL game recently with a 6pool, and MVP just won the championship by cheesing. What part of that is good for gameplay? It's awful.
See also: Bad Habit's heroic claim to fame (I actually think this is awesome in a horrible way, good for him, bad for Blizzard)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283755
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Nestea's spinecrawler rush on Dual Sight is the best 'tower rush' in the world 
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Yeah, no one should be able to attack before the 30 minute mark. More explosions and flashy lights that way.
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You don't offer much of an argument...cheese sucks? Is that all you have to say about it?
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I sincerely apologize for there being strategies in this game that are not based around having an enormous army  It's a real shame that the depth of the game is not shallow enough for your needs.
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Why do people hate cheese? It is very easy to counter if you bother scouting. Would be really bad for the game if all early game was removed as people would play greedy
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Scouting cheese and easily defending it is good fun.
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Some cheese is a good way to punish greedy players who like to maximize economy or those players who refuse to scout every corner.
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I don't see how you would want to go about 'removing cheese'
That would pertain to removing any early defensive options (cannons, spines, bunkers)
Also, these strategies aren't end all. You can stop them.
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On May 26 2012 04:36 MonkSEA wrote:Nestea's spinecrawler rush on Dual Sight is the best 'tower rush' in the world
What he said. Also, you need cannon rushing for example as protoss to punish too greedy play by Z when going FFE or also bunker rushing as T in same situation. It's fine as long as it's not too strong, and it is NOT too strong in SC2, it is a nice strategic tool.
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You want every game to be no-rush-15?
Anyways, there are some people who will always try to play as greedy as possible, believing in their macro skills, and whenever they get surprised by a build like this, they tend to rage about cheese. But these people failed to see one thing their play was not: safe.
Okay, play as greedy as you want. But be aware that you are actively betting on the other player for not doing incredibly early aggression. But you don't win all bets, and if that player has a good read on you, he might just call...
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i think you need to stop QQING and get better at checkin for cheesy builds cause thats part of the game and i dont llike it either but thats how it is man no need to post a forum about it
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That Nestea Lair rush into SpineCrawler against Protoss FE (that are open and costly to cover with cannons), was genius.
BW had a lot of cheese. Proxy gateways are just as bad. What happens when you are greedy and do not probably scout or go hard eco first.
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On May 26 2012 04:41 joebang wrote:
i think you need to stop QQING and get better at checkin for cheesy builds cause thats part of the game and i dont llike it either but thats how it is man no need to post a forum about it
just perfect...
you are raging against cheese?? go get a life..
not every single player is on the mood to ALWAYS play a macro, 20+ minutes long game.
get over it
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There will always be a spectrum of builds that range from cheesy to macro. Cheese doesn't make for very interesting ladder games, but in a drawn out series that are BO5+, mixing in viable cheese strategies is a calculated move that pros make when they consider their match-up.
MVP won the championship by outplaying the people he defeated. He has explicitly mentioned that he planned to go 11/11 rax if it goes to Game 7 (without giving a thorough explanation). Presumably he's watched enough of Squirtle's games to know his style in the decisive game of a series and concluded that "cheesing" him was the best strategy. I thought that game was spectacular and a great conclusion to one of the best finals yet. A game where the only option is to open standard would be extremely boring.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
Cheese makes games more interesting to me, I personally love fighting cheese when I play blizzard games because of the satisfaction of when you hold it off besides it forces people to stay smart, going blindly absurd macro builds while may be more entertaining after a while would force a 15 minute period of nothing cheese keeps the game dynamic and I'd hate to see it go.
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1 Cheese in the final BO7 means MVP won by cheesing? WHYYYYY do people keep saying this!!!
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3/10
My guess is that the OP lost to cheese, but managed to hold himself together long enough to create a thread with enough plausible deniability to seem like it wasn't just complaining about a recent loss. Even if you WERE making a serious thread, you've provided basically no evidence that the game would be better off without other than it makes some people upset on the ladder. Hell, EVERYTHING makes people upset on the ladder.
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I agree there needs to be cheese to stop greedy builds, but when it is so powerful that skill cannot defeat it for a straight up standard build then it needs to be removed. I think a lot of the games balance comes from the opening builds and how they play against each other and I'd like to see a lot more possible openings in the game to allow for more creativity. But thats just a personal view, and why I don't really enjoy actually playing the game.
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EPT
