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On June 03 2011 10:05 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 09:07 xarthaz wrote:On June 03 2011 08:58 Kassploj wrote:
You claim Eywa and like a dozen other ex-admins were lazy and thus dismissed from their duties. Even if that's true, rather an admin that does nothing than one that does nothing but ban people because they don't like him like Messer does.
It's just silly how iCCup defends Messer and what he does, this morning before work I entertained myself for an hour by just going through his posts in the CAA section. Someone complains about admins passing an unreasonable sentence, and he responds with "not your problem anymore, site ban". You wonder why people doubt your adminstration, look no further than CAA.
I also saw great admin work (read: iCCup.Tenshi), and that deserves to be praised. But if you seriously establish rules that draconically strike down people questioning admins' judgement ("keep your opinions to yourself and you will get the job done"), don't expect to be popular.
Agreed. Nina employs the classic redefinition trick. Commonly used in political science, demagogy and economics, to implicitly alter the meaning of terms used, hence making them incorrect or correct as desired, while the original taboo or distaste of the word remains despite altered context. Here's the problem with that supposition, which is that you make the incorrect assumption that I dictated the original post under a false pretext. If Messer or any admin on iCCup is abusing their authority inequitably, they will be held accountable. The original thesis of this thread I assumed was scripted with the utmost explicable intentions; to counter-argue iCCup's case in a forum which has increasingly becoming a pulpit for propagating baseless anti-iCCup inculcation.
There's iccup's problem "if you you are an admin and you abuse you won't remain as an admin". However this isn't good enough, you don't have any admins organizing any meaningful tournaments yet you have a huge tour section... What are they doing? You guys really need to distinguish between work and productivity, then you measure weather an admin stays based on what they've done productive to the BW community.
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On June 03 2011 10:11 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 10:05 ninazerg wrote:On June 03 2011 09:07 xarthaz wrote:On June 03 2011 08:58 Kassploj wrote:
You claim Eywa and like a dozen other ex-admins were lazy and thus dismissed from their duties. Even if that's true, rather an admin that does nothing than one that does nothing but ban people because they don't like him like Messer does.
It's just silly how iCCup defends Messer and what he does, this morning before work I entertained myself for an hour by just going through his posts in the CAA section. Someone complains about admins passing an unreasonable sentence, and he responds with "not your problem anymore, site ban". You wonder why people doubt your adminstration, look no further than CAA.
I also saw great admin work (read: iCCup.Tenshi), and that deserves to be praised. But if you seriously establish rules that draconically strike down people questioning admins' judgement ("keep your opinions to yourself and you will get the job done"), don't expect to be popular.
Agreed. Nina employs the classic redefinition trick. Commonly used in political science, demagogy and economics, to implicitly alter the meaning of terms used, hence making them incorrect or correct as desired, while the original taboo or distaste of the word remains despite altered context. Here's the problem with that supposition, which is that you make the incorrect assumption that I dictated the original post under a false pretext. If Messer or any admin on iCCup is abusing their authority inequitably, they will be held accountable. The original thesis of this thread I assumed was scripted with the utmost explicable intentions; to counter-argue iCCup's case in a forum which has increasingly becoming a pulpit for propagating baseless anti-iCCup inculcation. There's iccup's problem "if you you are an admin and you abuse you will remain as an admin". However this isn't good enough, you don't have any admins organizing any meaningful tournaments yet you have a huge tour section... What are they doing? You guys really need to distinguish between work and productivity, then you measure weather an admin stays based on what they've done productive to the BW community.
This is where you are wrong. You will NOT remain an admin if you abuse. Further more the people who have accused others of abusing or what have you were generally close to being demoted, were demoted, were caught abusing themselves or unable to do the job assigned to them. So that really makes their statements not worth as much as those who are doing the job, who are keeping their jobs and continuing to support the community. Some admins may have a bit of attitude and even some of the old ones might be a little bm, but I doubt many people could do the job those admins do for AS LONG as they do them and as well as they do them. Nor does this take into natural personality, that maybe they naturally come off wrong towards others or if they have had a rough day. Further more I must say to Eywa- if you want to bitch so much, then why dont you join the iccup admin team and do something to make it better? Or did you quit cause of some bullshit reason? Maybe you were an admin and got demoted... In any case shut up and put up until you decide to do something to help things change for the better.
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On June 03 2011 10:18 ICCup.Tesla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 10:11 Eywa- wrote:On June 03 2011 10:05 ninazerg wrote:On June 03 2011 09:07 xarthaz wrote:On June 03 2011 08:58 Kassploj wrote:
You claim Eywa and like a dozen other ex-admins were lazy and thus dismissed from their duties. Even if that's true, rather an admin that does nothing than one that does nothing but ban people because they don't like him like Messer does.
It's just silly how iCCup defends Messer and what he does, this morning before work I entertained myself for an hour by just going through his posts in the CAA section. Someone complains about admins passing an unreasonable sentence, and he responds with "not your problem anymore, site ban". You wonder why people doubt your adminstration, look no further than CAA.
I also saw great admin work (read: iCCup.Tenshi), and that deserves to be praised. But if you seriously establish rules that draconically strike down people questioning admins' judgement ("keep your opinions to yourself and you will get the job done"), don't expect to be popular.
Agreed. Nina employs the classic redefinition trick. Commonly used in political science, demagogy and economics, to implicitly alter the meaning of terms used, hence making them incorrect or correct as desired, while the original taboo or distaste of the word remains despite altered context. Here's the problem with that supposition, which is that you make the incorrect assumption that I dictated the original post under a false pretext. If Messer or any admin on iCCup is abusing their authority inequitably, they will be held accountable. The original thesis of this thread I assumed was scripted with the utmost explicable intentions; to counter-argue iCCup's case in a forum which has increasingly becoming a pulpit for propagating baseless anti-iCCup inculcation. There's iccup's problem "if you you are an admin and you abuse you will remain as an admin". However this isn't good enough, you don't have any admins organizing any meaningful tournaments yet you have a huge tour section... What are they doing? You guys really need to distinguish between work and productivity, then you measure weather an admin stays based on what they've done productive to the BW community. This is where you are wrong. You will NOT remain an admin if you abuse. Further more the people who have accused others of abusing or what have you were generally close to being demoted, were demoted, were caught abusing themselves or unable to do the job assigned to them. So that really makes their statements not worth as much as those who are doing the job, who are keeping their jobs and continuing to support the community. Some admins may have a bit of attitude and even some of the old ones might be a little bm, but I doubt many people could do the job those admins do for AS LONG as they do them and as well as they do them. Nor does this take into natural personality, that maybe they naturally come off wrong towards others or if they have had a rough day. Further more I must say to Eywa- if you want to bitch so much, then why dont you join the iccup admin team and do something to make it better? Or did you quit cause of some bullshit reason? Maybe you were an admin and got demoted... In any case shut up and put up until you decide to do something to help things change for the better.
my bad... fucked up the post. I am confident anyone could have connected the dots of where I was going with it, trying to do too many things at the same time. Also I was on the iccup team but banned me when I told them I'd have to afk for a while due to move + computer crash one after the other, anyhow post will be edited, quit pissing your pants.
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On June 03 2011 10:27 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 10:18 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On June 03 2011 10:11 Eywa- wrote:On June 03 2011 10:05 ninazerg wrote:On June 03 2011 09:07 xarthaz wrote:On June 03 2011 08:58 Kassploj wrote:
You claim Eywa and like a dozen other ex-admins were lazy and thus dismissed from their duties. Even if that's true, rather an admin that does nothing than one that does nothing but ban people because they don't like him like Messer does.
It's just silly how iCCup defends Messer and what he does, this morning before work I entertained myself for an hour by just going through his posts in the CAA section. Someone complains about admins passing an unreasonable sentence, and he responds with "not your problem anymore, site ban". You wonder why people doubt your adminstration, look no further than CAA.
I also saw great admin work (read: iCCup.Tenshi), and that deserves to be praised. But if you seriously establish rules that draconically strike down people questioning admins' judgement ("keep your opinions to yourself and you will get the job done"), don't expect to be popular.
Agreed. Nina employs the classic redefinition trick. Commonly used in political science, demagogy and economics, to implicitly alter the meaning of terms used, hence making them incorrect or correct as desired, while the original taboo or distaste of the word remains despite altered context. Here's the problem with that supposition, which is that you make the incorrect assumption that I dictated the original post under a false pretext. If Messer or any admin on iCCup is abusing their authority inequitably, they will be held accountable. The original thesis of this thread I assumed was scripted with the utmost explicable intentions; to counter-argue iCCup's case in a forum which has increasingly becoming a pulpit for propagating baseless anti-iCCup inculcation. There's iccup's problem "if you you are an admin and you abuse you will remain as an admin". However this isn't good enough, you don't have any admins organizing any meaningful tournaments yet you have a huge tour section... What are they doing? You guys really need to distinguish between work and productivity, then you measure weather an admin stays based on what they've done productive to the BW community. This is where you are wrong. You will NOT remain an admin if you abuse. Further more the people who have accused others of abusing or what have you were generally close to being demoted, were demoted, were caught abusing themselves or unable to do the job assigned to them. So that really makes their statements not worth as much as those who are doing the job, who are keeping their jobs and continuing to support the community. Some admins may have a bit of attitude and even some of the old ones might be a little bm, but I doubt many people could do the job those admins do for AS LONG as they do them and as well as they do them. Nor does this take into natural personality, that maybe they naturally come off wrong towards others or if they have had a rough day. Further more I must say to Eywa- if you want to bitch so much, then why dont you join the iccup admin team and do something to make it better? Or did you quit cause of some bullshit reason? Maybe you were an admin and got demoted... In any case shut up and put up until you decide to do something to help things change for the better. my bad... fucked up the post. I am confident anyone could have connected the dots of where I was going with it, trying to do too many things at the same time. Also I was on the iccup team but banned me when I told them I'd have to afk for a while due to move + computer crash one after the other, anyhow post will be edited, quit pissing your pants.
Well what do you know... Its glad we have come to some sort of understanding, though I must say I am not pissing my pants.. Lol.. I am actually finding this rather amusing.
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On June 03 2011 10:29 ICCup.Tesla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 10:27 Eywa- wrote:On June 03 2011 10:18 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On June 03 2011 10:11 Eywa- wrote:On June 03 2011 10:05 ninazerg wrote:On June 03 2011 09:07 xarthaz wrote:On June 03 2011 08:58 Kassploj wrote:
You claim Eywa and like a dozen other ex-admins were lazy and thus dismissed from their duties. Even if that's true, rather an admin that does nothing than one that does nothing but ban people because they don't like him like Messer does.
It's just silly how iCCup defends Messer and what he does, this morning before work I entertained myself for an hour by just going through his posts in the CAA section. Someone complains about admins passing an unreasonable sentence, and he responds with "not your problem anymore, site ban". You wonder why people doubt your adminstration, look no further than CAA.
I also saw great admin work (read: iCCup.Tenshi), and that deserves to be praised. But if you seriously establish rules that draconically strike down people questioning admins' judgement ("keep your opinions to yourself and you will get the job done"), don't expect to be popular.
Agreed. Nina employs the classic redefinition trick. Commonly used in political science, demagogy and economics, to implicitly alter the meaning of terms used, hence making them incorrect or correct as desired, while the original taboo or distaste of the word remains despite altered context. Here's the problem with that supposition, which is that you make the incorrect assumption that I dictated the original post under a false pretext. If Messer or any admin on iCCup is abusing their authority inequitably, they will be held accountable. The original thesis of this thread I assumed was scripted with the utmost explicable intentions; to counter-argue iCCup's case in a forum which has increasingly becoming a pulpit for propagating baseless anti-iCCup inculcation. There's iccup's problem "if you you are an admin and you abuse you will remain as an admin". However this isn't good enough, you don't have any admins organizing any meaningful tournaments yet you have a huge tour section... What are they doing? You guys really need to distinguish between work and productivity, then you measure weather an admin stays based on what they've done productive to the BW community. This is where you are wrong. You will NOT remain an admin if you abuse. Further more the people who have accused others of abusing or what have you were generally close to being demoted, were demoted, were caught abusing themselves or unable to do the job assigned to them. So that really makes their statements not worth as much as those who are doing the job, who are keeping their jobs and continuing to support the community. Some admins may have a bit of attitude and even some of the old ones might be a little bm, but I doubt many people could do the job those admins do for AS LONG as they do them and as well as they do them. Nor does this take into natural personality, that maybe they naturally come off wrong towards others or if they have had a rough day. Further more I must say to Eywa- if you want to bitch so much, then why dont you join the iccup admin team and do something to make it better? Or did you quit cause of some bullshit reason? Maybe you were an admin and got demoted... In any case shut up and put up until you decide to do something to help things change for the better. my bad... fucked up the post. I am confident anyone could have connected the dots of where I was going with it, trying to do too many things at the same time. Also I was on the iccup team but banned me when I told them I'd have to afk for a while due to move + computer crash one after the other, anyhow post will be edited, quit pissing your pants. Well what do you know... Its glad we have come to some sort of understanding, though I must say I am not pissing my pants.. Lol.. I am actually finding this rather amusing.
It's fine, but you don't understand me at all, Game and I are putting more effort than anyone to better the community, even more than the iccup admins. I guarantee you. I have big ideas, and when I get set on something, it gets done. Period. And don't give this "iccup is needed for the bw community to survive" because its absolutely false. Don't question the mastermind before the events unfold.
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This is stupid. Keep hatred to yourself. Spreading it and fragmenting the community does nothing.
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On June 03 2011 10:34 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 10:29 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On June 03 2011 10:27 Eywa- wrote:On June 03 2011 10:18 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On June 03 2011 10:11 Eywa- wrote:On June 03 2011 10:05 ninazerg wrote:On June 03 2011 09:07 xarthaz wrote:On June 03 2011 08:58 Kassploj wrote:
You claim Eywa and like a dozen other ex-admins were lazy and thus dismissed from their duties. Even if that's true, rather an admin that does nothing than one that does nothing but ban people because they don't like him like Messer does.
It's just silly how iCCup defends Messer and what he does, this morning before work I entertained myself for an hour by just going through his posts in the CAA section. Someone complains about admins passing an unreasonable sentence, and he responds with "not your problem anymore, site ban". You wonder why people doubt your adminstration, look no further than CAA.
I also saw great admin work (read: iCCup.Tenshi), and that deserves to be praised. But if you seriously establish rules that draconically strike down people questioning admins' judgement ("keep your opinions to yourself and you will get the job done"), don't expect to be popular.
Agreed. Nina employs the classic redefinition trick. Commonly used in political science, demagogy and economics, to implicitly alter the meaning of terms used, hence making them incorrect or correct as desired, while the original taboo or distaste of the word remains despite altered context. Here's the problem with that supposition, which is that you make the incorrect assumption that I dictated the original post under a false pretext. If Messer or any admin on iCCup is abusing their authority inequitably, they will be held accountable. The original thesis of this thread I assumed was scripted with the utmost explicable intentions; to counter-argue iCCup's case in a forum which has increasingly becoming a pulpit for propagating baseless anti-iCCup inculcation. There's iccup's problem "if you you are an admin and you abuse you will remain as an admin". However this isn't good enough, you don't have any admins organizing any meaningful tournaments yet you have a huge tour section... What are they doing? You guys really need to distinguish between work and productivity, then you measure weather an admin stays based on what they've done productive to the BW community. This is where you are wrong. You will NOT remain an admin if you abuse. Further more the people who have accused others of abusing or what have you were generally close to being demoted, were demoted, were caught abusing themselves or unable to do the job assigned to them. So that really makes their statements not worth as much as those who are doing the job, who are keeping their jobs and continuing to support the community. Some admins may have a bit of attitude and even some of the old ones might be a little bm, but I doubt many people could do the job those admins do for AS LONG as they do them and as well as they do them. Nor does this take into natural personality, that maybe they naturally come off wrong towards others or if they have had a rough day. Further more I must say to Eywa- if you want to bitch so much, then why dont you join the iccup admin team and do something to make it better? Or did you quit cause of some bullshit reason? Maybe you were an admin and got demoted... In any case shut up and put up until you decide to do something to help things change for the better. my bad... fucked up the post. I am confident anyone could have connected the dots of where I was going with it, trying to do too many things at the same time. Also I was on the iccup team but banned me when I told them I'd have to afk for a while due to move + computer crash one after the other, anyhow post will be edited, quit pissing your pants. Well what do you know... Its glad we have come to some sort of understanding, though I must say I am not pissing my pants.. Lol.. I am actually finding this rather amusing. It's fine, but you don't understand me at all, Game and I are putting more effort than anyone to better the community, even more than the iccup admins. I guarantee you. I have big ideas, and when I get set on something, it gets done. Period. And don't give this "iccup is needed for the bw community to survive" because its absolutely false. Don't question the mastermind before the events unfold.
If that's true, then host your stuff on US West.
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On June 03 2011 10:40 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 10:34 Eywa- wrote:On June 03 2011 10:29 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On June 03 2011 10:27 Eywa- wrote:On June 03 2011 10:18 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On June 03 2011 10:11 Eywa- wrote:On June 03 2011 10:05 ninazerg wrote:On June 03 2011 09:07 xarthaz wrote:On June 03 2011 08:58 Kassploj wrote:
You claim Eywa and like a dozen other ex-admins were lazy and thus dismissed from their duties. Even if that's true, rather an admin that does nothing than one that does nothing but ban people because they don't like him like Messer does.
It's just silly how iCCup defends Messer and what he does, this morning before work I entertained myself for an hour by just going through his posts in the CAA section. Someone complains about admins passing an unreasonable sentence, and he responds with "not your problem anymore, site ban". You wonder why people doubt your adminstration, look no further than CAA.
I also saw great admin work (read: iCCup.Tenshi), and that deserves to be praised. But if you seriously establish rules that draconically strike down people questioning admins' judgement ("keep your opinions to yourself and you will get the job done"), don't expect to be popular.
Agreed. Nina employs the classic redefinition trick. Commonly used in political science, demagogy and economics, to implicitly alter the meaning of terms used, hence making them incorrect or correct as desired, while the original taboo or distaste of the word remains despite altered context. Here's the problem with that supposition, which is that you make the incorrect assumption that I dictated the original post under a false pretext. If Messer or any admin on iCCup is abusing their authority inequitably, they will be held accountable. The original thesis of this thread I assumed was scripted with the utmost explicable intentions; to counter-argue iCCup's case in a forum which has increasingly becoming a pulpit for propagating baseless anti-iCCup inculcation. There's iccup's problem "if you you are an admin and you abuse you will remain as an admin". However this isn't good enough, you don't have any admins organizing any meaningful tournaments yet you have a huge tour section... What are they doing? You guys really need to distinguish between work and productivity, then you measure weather an admin stays based on what they've done productive to the BW community. This is where you are wrong. You will NOT remain an admin if you abuse. Further more the people who have accused others of abusing or what have you were generally close to being demoted, were demoted, were caught abusing themselves or unable to do the job assigned to them. So that really makes their statements not worth as much as those who are doing the job, who are keeping their jobs and continuing to support the community. Some admins may have a bit of attitude and even some of the old ones might be a little bm, but I doubt many people could do the job those admins do for AS LONG as they do them and as well as they do them. Nor does this take into natural personality, that maybe they naturally come off wrong towards others or if they have had a rough day. Further more I must say to Eywa- if you want to bitch so much, then why dont you join the iccup admin team and do something to make it better? Or did you quit cause of some bullshit reason? Maybe you were an admin and got demoted... In any case shut up and put up until you decide to do something to help things change for the better. my bad... fucked up the post. I am confident anyone could have connected the dots of where I was going with it, trying to do too many things at the same time. Also I was on the iccup team but banned me when I told them I'd have to afk for a while due to move + computer crash one after the other, anyhow post will be edited, quit pissing your pants. Well what do you know... Its glad we have come to some sort of understanding, though I must say I am not pissing my pants.. Lol.. I am actually finding this rather amusing. It's fine, but you don't understand me at all, Game and I are putting more effort than anyone to better the community, even more than the iccup admins. I guarantee you. I have big ideas, and when I get set on something, it gets done. Period. And don't give this "iccup is needed for the bw community to survive" because its absolutely false. Don't question the mastermind before the events unfold. If that's true, then host your stuff on US West.
You're so selfish, this is another "why people hate iccup?". None of you care about the community, you just said to someone who does + is working on events "you think bw doesn't need iccup, leave" . Thats rich for the survival of iccup.
Edit: I suggest you delete that, obv wasn't thought through.
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I have big ideas, and when I get set on something, it gets done. Period. And don't give this "iccup is needed for the bw community to survive" because its absolutely false. Don't question the mastermind before the events unfold.
You said this, not me. If you say iCCup isn't needed for the foreigner community to survive, then that means you have other options. If you hate iCCup, then I recommend you don't host your events on the server.
But don't sit there and say that we don't need iCCup, then say we're selfish for saying you should host on a different server, if you're making the case that iCCup isn't needed.
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Perfect example at selfish self serving admins. I demolish Gecko's feeble arguments on TL, www.teamliquid.net.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand,
[09:59:47 PM] <iCCup.GeckoXp> Ovechkin179 is eywa
[09:59:49 PM] <iCCup.GeckoXp> rite?
[09:59:51 PM] <iCCup.Hkorea> y
[09:59:53 PM] <iCCup.Paladin> yep
[09:59:54 PM] <iCCup.Nina> rite.
[09:59:57 PM] <Kerotan> nope
[10:00:01 PM] <iCCup.Paladin> yes
[10:00:02 PM] <iCCup.GeckoXp> ok
[10:00:09 PM] <ICCUP.Messer> why does it make difference if replay is wathced in multi or single player mode?
[10:00:20 PM] <Kerotan> I didn't wanna bandwaggon
[10:00:20 PM] <iCCup.Hkorea> I think its diff with game version
[10:00:21 PM] <iCCup.GeckoXp> because it's more likely to crash in mp
[10:00:22 PM] <iCCup.Paladin> coz you cant use old .exe online
[10:00:27 PM] Ovechkin179 has been banned by iCCup.GeckoXp.
[10:00:28 PM] -- Joined channel: The Void --
[10:00:28 PM] If you experience a lot of lag while within this channel, try selecting 'Disable Silent Channel View' from the Window menu.
Abuse of admin powers? "Why do people hate iccup?" Chalk it up there.
Edit: if you need screenshots/text logs from the hour or two before that, I can provide, I said nothing on iccup + had been afk in channel for about 1-2 hours.
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On June 03 2011 11:24 Eywa- wrote:Perfect example at selfish self serving admins. I demolish Gecko's feeble arguments on TL, www.teamliquid.net. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, [09:59:47 PM] <iCCup.GeckoXp> Ovechkin179 is eywa [09:59:49 PM] <iCCup.GeckoXp> rite? [09:59:51 PM] <iCCup.Hkorea> y [09:59:53 PM] <iCCup.Paladin> yep [09:59:54 PM] <iCCup.Nina> rite. [09:59:57 PM] <Kerotan> nope [10:00:01 PM] <iCCup.Paladin> yes [10:00:02 PM] <iCCup.GeckoXp> ok [10:00:09 PM] <ICCUP.Messer> why does it make difference if replay is wathced in multi or single player mode? [10:00:20 PM] <Kerotan> I didn't wanna bandwaggon [10:00:20 PM] <iCCup.Hkorea> I think its diff with game version [10:00:21 PM] <iCCup.GeckoXp> because it's more likely to crash in mp [10:00:22 PM] <iCCup.Paladin> coz you cant use old .exe online [10:00:27 PM] Ovechkin179 has been banned by iCCup.GeckoXp. [10:00:28 PM] -- Joined channel: The Void -- [10:00:28 PM] If you experience a lot of lag while within this channel, try selecting 'Disable Silent Channel View' from the Window menu. Abuse of admin powers? "Why do people hate iccup?" Chalk it up there. Edit: if you need screenshots/text logs from the hour or two before that, I can provide, I said nothing on iccup + had been afk in channel for about 1-2 hours.
Dont you know its a rule that if you talk shit about ICCup or its admins you CAN and generally WILL be banned for bm against the admin team - DOESNT MATTER WHAT SITE YOU DO IT ON! So Gecko did NOT abuse his powers. Infact he was much easier on you than everyone said should have been done.
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let's all take a deep breath and contemplate how silly it is to cry about bad manners and how we should all be ashamed of ourselves
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is awesome32282 Posts
This is going nowhere 
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EPT
