On July 16 2006 22:53 SuperJongMan wrote: Manablue, honestly, this OSL and MSL, the Toss line up all underperformed. Yeah 815 is balanced PvZ imo. I'll still stick by it. It's Savior that is imbalanced.
I don't think the pro league statistics are always the best judge of balance.. But Im PRETTY sure 815 has a really bad P win ratio. Something like 10:20 or worse. FA or anyone with some stats wanna come through on that one? Once again im not saying its not perfect at showing balance, but I just dont think 815 is very good for PvZ.
On July 16 2006 22:37 ManaBlue wrote: I still find it funny that you guys talk about the things Ra did wrong, as if it's relavent at all.
Let's start talking recent series. In the last 10 times a toss has met a zerg in semis or later in an MSL or OSL, what have the results been? I personally have no idea, but I'm so confident of the racial imbalance that I'm willing to assume the numbers will support my position. I'd really like to see FA or some other tome of knowledge write a brief post on it.
Toss players don't beat Zergs. When they start winning more than a quarter of the games, you can all tell me that PvZ is balanced. But until then, stop this nonesense. Pro zerg players are just too fucking good.
I've seen great tosses like Pusan, Anytime and Stork get screwed over and over by lame Zergs that would get ruined by Terran players with half their skill. I saw Reach get stopped time and again by his "weak matchup" while he was the best PvZer in the world (2nd to Ra if you were a fanboy at the time ). And now finally, Ra gets it.
Personally I'm glad. People always clung to Ra as if he was some perfect PvZ machine that never got to play in the individual leagues, but now we see that he's no different than the rest.
This match up needs attention...PLEASE!
Last post, page 38. I listed every single bo5 PvZ I could think of/find in the article section =)
On July 16 2006 22:53 SuperJongMan wrote: Manablue, honestly, this OSL and MSL, the Toss line up all underperformed. Yeah 815 is balanced PvZ imo. I'll still stick by it. It's Savior that is imbalanced.
Storm would have definately kept those Mutas at bay imo. The moment the mutas came, Ra's econ shut down. He could have mined and gotten a lot more answers to Mutas with money coming in. Ra had like 4 Archons that game? 4 Archons is many dead templar. He had the cannons, he needed the storm.
Imo, when Ra's expo was delayed as bad as it was, I thought it was over. Sure the tech change was a good switch up, but think about the lurk count and hydra count. With Ra's sense, I woulda figured he expected a lil something when he was pressuring Savior as hard as he was without a wave coming. He really expected ling lurker.
Let's be honest here tho, when have you seen Savior lose ZvP? Proxy gates? A few lucky reaver shots? Intothedarkness? That guy doesn't lose ZvP. He has made 3 finals in a row because he doesn't lose easily.
Hm, he lost to Stork on forte (this map is so amazingly good PvZ, bring it back plz, but modify it so it isn't T>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Z), and Nal_rA beat him 2-1 in all-star on luna and some map.
On July 16 2006 22:53 SuperJongMan wrote: Manablue, honestly, this OSL and MSL, the Toss line up all underperformed. Yeah 815 is balanced PvZ imo. I'll still stick by it. It's Savior that is imbalanced.
I don't think the pro league statistics are always the best judge of balance.. But Im PRETTY sure 815 has a really bad P win ratio. Something like 10:20 or worse. FA or anyone with some stats wanna come through on that one? Once again im not saying its not perfect at showing balance, but I just dont think 815 is very good for PvZ.
I don't know the stats, but I do know that certain toss players (stork, nal_ra) win a lot of PvZs on it. It's a winnable map but perhaps a bit limited in what the toss can do? Dunno, I suck at it PvZ.
did anyone else notice nal_ra's aggressive gesture for his trophy? as a protoss user, i was of course rooting for ra, but i think some of us remember his interview from one of the blizzard events where he was upset that he did not get any trophy. even though he lost this finals, at least the poor man got a trophy!
Good point, I guess storms would have helped. Savior was just able to roll over 4 cannons, and if storm was there to threaten, it would have fought them off to save them atleast a few seconds of time.
Savior just out-played Ra. Take a look at that muta micro -- even July must be jealous of it!
815 is not bad for PvZ. It's a little hard for toss to establish himself, but once he can, it becomes tough for Zerg to win.
Rush Hour is a little tough late game, but I'd go so far as to say that it's good for Protoss during the midgame since it's so hard for Zerg to contain the Protoss.
The Eye is bad for PvZ, but they are getting rid of it anyway.
Arcadia is not bad for PvZ at all. Saying it is bad is like saying Azalea is bad in so far as I am concerned.
EPT
win ratio. Something like 10:20 or worse. FA or anyone with some stats wanna come through on that one? Once again im not saying its not perfect at showing balance, but I just dont think 815 is very good for PvZ.
