EPT7/16 msl pringles final - Page 39
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On July 16 2006 08:15 ManaBlue wrote: I'm not going to say it this time. It's so damn obvious that it would be redundant. I'll stay as subtle as I possibly can be... ...new maps please.  815, RH, The Eye, Arcadia. Ra lost Arcadia and 815 which are not imbalanced PvZ. Arcadia is imbalanced Savior vs P but not ZvP. Also, The Eye, I felt he had a good start if it wasn't for his lack of.... YOU GUESSED IT!! PSI STORM! And then RH is fine PvZ. It's only late game that I notice RH is very gay to P, and that's not even always. | ||
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dyodyo
Philippines578 Posts
finally IPX! thanks for moving me up 120 places up on liquibet! | ||
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alpskomleko
Slovenia950 Posts
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
However even though I voted for Ra and really wanted to win I just didnt think he would have much chance. Too hard to prepare strategies for these maps AND make them work in a final. Savior just played with super safe openings first two games and then he opened up in the last 2 while Ra played more conservatively. I think Game 3 was far from "maestrical" though. IPX just rained down superior econ after Ra lost 10 zealots for free, I even feel like Ra could have still won it if he had directed those zeals to that top mineral only while the battles were going on.. and maybe saved a few more probes heh. TT I know everyone wants to predict that Savior will be the next super zerg, but I really feel like if nothing else he shows somewhat undynamic play and eventually his ZvT will be figured out and he will become like Junwi or Oversky. Maybe it wont be as bad as those guys though.. Also these maps are extremely good for him and his playstyle. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
On July 16 2006 16:21 alpskomleko wrote: woo nice FA, you got a memory like an elephant! A shame about our snot toss though Had to dig through the article section for maps and TvZ bo5s tho ;p PvZ bo5s I remembered a bit better. | ||
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TaDa1.
655 Posts
im going to eat a kitten if ra loses this mYm.Alpine United States. July 16 2006 03:10. Posts 295 PM Profile Buddy Quote Kittens life in Ra's hand eh? Please save it ra...dont let lukeeze kill it... Lukeeze[zR] Spain. July 16 2006 04:24. Posts 240 PM Profile Buddy Quote I think some kittens will pay for ra's loss, unfair but someone must pays rofl | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
On July 16 2006 15:11 SuperJongMan wrote: 815, RH, The Eye, Arcadia. Ra lost Arcadia and 815 which are not imbalanced PvZ. Arcadia is imbalanced Savior vs P but not ZvP. Also, The Eye, I felt he had a good start if it wasn't for his lack of.... YOU GUESSED IT!! PSI STORM! And then RH is fine PvZ. It's only late game that I notice RH is very gay to P, and that's not even always. How would psi storm have helped him in that game? Can storm even touch savior mutas? He just got caught with his pants down that game with the tech switch. | ||
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TaDa1.
655 Posts
On July 16 2006 17:00 red.venom wrote: I know everyone wants to predict that Savior will be the next super zerg, but I really feel like if nothing else he shows somewhat undynamic play and eventually his ZvT will be figured out and he will become like Junwi or Oversky. Maybe it wont be as bad as those guys though.. Also these maps are extremely good for him and his playstyle. i disagree with those sayings. the thing i like best about savior his play style. It's not undynamic like u say, it's flowing. his zvt is best because it has no transition period, he's strong vs terran any time, unlike most other zvt style | ||
ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
On July 16 2006 20:24 Purind wrote: How would psi storm have helped him in that game? Can storm even touch savior mutas? He just got caught with his pants down that game with the tech switch. I agree Sushi. As far as your criticism goes SuperJongMan, I don't want to get into a big P vs Z race war like always, so I'll just point out a couple things that I think you should think about. RushHour is clearly imbalanced PvZ. It's even gotten the cute nick name, "ZergHour" by the Korean community, and is generally hated for the matchup. If 815 isn't imbalanced PvZ, why is there a 2 to 1 Zerg over Protoss win rate on it? The Eye isn't a fun PvZ map to begin with, and as Purind said, storm would have done nothing in that game other than robbing Ra of Archons. I think we just need to face the fact that maps need to be designed to balance PvZ for a while now. Fuck the other matchups. It's becoming more and more clear that a toss will never again win a major tournament unless he dodges Zergs the whole way. Case in point: Anytime. | ||
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TaDa1.
655 Posts
2 gate hard core rush may + proxi as well fast expand. imo, if p work more on fe, maybe fe will be a new way to go. just like t fe v z FE will revolve the mu for sure, as the protoss force the zerg to be more offensive, and force zerg to either double expand -> more vulnerable to push/ harass or rush, not sitting and mass | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 16 2006 20:54 ManaBlue wrote: I agree Sushi. As far as your criticism goes SuperJongMan, I don't want to get into a big P vs Z race war like always, so I'll just point out a couple things that I think you should think about. RushHour is clearly imbalanced PvZ. It's even gotten the cute nick name, "ZergHour" by the Korean community, and is generally hated for the matchup. If 815 isn't imbalanced PvZ, why is there a 2 to 1 Zerg over Protoss win rate on it? The Eye isn't a fun PvZ map to begin with, and as Purind said, storm would have done nothing in that game other than robbing Ra of Archons. I think we just need to face the fact that maps need to be designed to balance PvZ for a while now. Fuck the other matchups. It's becoming more and more clear that a toss will never again win a major tournament unless he dodges Zergs the whole way. Case in point: Anytime. - Rush Hour is balance pvz at pro level, if anything in favour of protoss.. the most recent games on it have been in protoss's favour.. however late game is a worry (but isnt it always?) - The Eye is just horrible; i think ra played too ambitiously, trying to shut down expos and defend main like that.. - 815 is generally considered a easier map for protoss - All three of these maps are getting the boot; although sad to see 815 go - Arcadia game was just pure savior out smarting the dream toss, nothing more to it really | ||
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ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
Let's start talking recent series. In the last 10 times a toss has met a zerg in semis or later in an MSL or OSL, what have the results been? I personally have no idea, but I'm so confident of the racial imbalance that I'm willing to assume the numbers will support my position. I'd really like to see FA or some other tome of knowledge write a brief post on it. Toss players don't beat Zergs. When they start winning more than a quarter of the games, you can all tell me that PvZ is balanced. But until then, stop this nonesense. Pro zerg players are just too fucking good.  I've seen great tosses like Pusan, Anytime and Stork get screwed over and over by lame Zergs that would get ruined by Terran players with half their skill. I saw Reach get stopped time and again by his "weak matchup" while he was the best PvZer in the world (2nd to Ra if you were a fanboy at the time ). And now finally, Ra gets it.Personally I'm glad. People always clung to Ra as if he was some perfect PvZ machine that never got to play in the individual leagues, but now we see that he's no different than the rest. This match up needs attention...PLEASE! | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
Uzoo CYon pringles | ||
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SnesS.tQ
United States30 Posts
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Protoss-Fighting
United States814 Posts
maby get rid of citadel and have direct templar archives and speed auto upgraded? | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Yeah 815 is balanced PvZ imo. I'll still stick by it. It's Savior that is imbalanced. Storm would have definately kept those Mutas at bay imo. The moment the mutas came, Ra's econ shut down. He could have mined and gotten a lot more answers to Mutas with money coming in. Ra had like 4 Archons that game? 4 Archons is many dead templar. He had the cannons, he needed the storm. Imo, when Ra's expo was delayed as bad as it was, I thought it was over. Sure the tech change was a good switch up, but think about the lurk count and hydra count. With Ra's sense, I woulda figured he expected a lil something when he was pressuring Savior as hard as he was without a wave coming. He really expected ling lurker. Let's be honest here tho, when have you seen Savior lose ZvP? Proxy gates? A few lucky reaver shots? Intothedarkness? That guy doesn't lose ZvP. He has made 3 finals in a row because he doesn't lose easily. | ||
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MuShu
United States3223 Posts
It always looked uphill for rA, so when I dowloaded the VODs I wasn't surprised that he lost. But what I really wanted was close and exciting games, not one-sided ZvP. =/ Oh, and EVAN kinda blew it for me on b.net. | ||
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ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
On July 16 2006 22:53 SuperJongMan wrote: Manablue, honestly, this OSL and MSL, the Toss line up all underperformed. Yeah 815 is balanced PvZ imo. I'll still stick by it. It's Savior that is imbalanced. Storm would have definately kept those Mutas at bay imo. The moment the mutas came, Ra's econ shut down. He could have mined and gotten a lot more answers to Mutas with money coming in. Ra had like 4 Archons that game? 4 Archons is many dead templar. He had the cannons, he needed the storm. Imo, when Ra's expo was delayed as bad as it was, I thought it was over. Sure the tech change was a good switch up, but think about the lurk count and hydra count. With Ra's sense, I woulda figured he expected a lil something when he was pressuring Savior as hard as he was without a wave coming. He really expected ling lurker. Let's be honest here tho, when have you seen Savior lose ZvP? Proxy gates? A few lucky reaver shots? Intothedarkness? That guy doesn't lose ZvP. He has made 3 finals in a row because he doesn't lose easily. Very valid points. It's true that guys like July and Savior make PvZ look worse than it is. I guess I'm just frustrated because the greatest PvZers that the world can offer don't even have a shot against these guys. So when you tell someone that they have an uphill battle against the mediocre Zergs, and instant lose to the best Zergs, what kind of competition is that? I'm confident that they could fix it with better maps. To hell with the other matchups. We've seen balanced TvP for a long time, so I think it can suffer to fix the bastard child of BW matchups for a least a couple seasons. | ||
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araav
Armenia1590 Posts
I am still happy rA got 2nd place!!!GJ rA, GJ IPX | ||
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