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I say "my" because I know it's not really new and that I didn't really invent it. But I came up with it on my own and started using it recently with good results. Granted the protoss players in my example reps are not the best but they are good enough to give people an idea of how the build works. I don't claim to be a great player or anything but I'm decent enough, with a pretty good knowledge of brood war. Here's the basics of it.
Its for TvP by the way
[Opening Build]
You open 9 depot, 10 rax, then start gas with your 12 scv(after 13th is started). This will keep you from getting too much gas unnessarily. You pump marines non stop from your 1 rax while getting a fact and a 3rd depot.
After starting your tank get an academy. Continue to pump marines/tanks from your rax and 1 fact.
Add a 4th depot and start siege and stim after your second tank is about half way done. You should also make 2 medics right when acad is done and start comstat as well.
Save your comstat up, don't use it to scout or anything just yet. After 2 medics resume marines. When your third tank comes out send out an scv or 2(on maps with alternative routes that allow counters) to scout.
The third tank will come right about when siege is finished and you should have 11 or so marines, 2 medics, and 3 tanks with siege. Move out while you start your cc on the high ground.
[Play vs protoss opening builds]
Now let's get into tactics/strategy/why I like this build.
A good part about this build is, it allows you to fake fd easily with 6 marines and a tank. This allows for a strong element of suprise. The first scenarios I describe will assume you scouted the P.
If he is going 2 gate range or really any variation of 2 gate/expo/pressure/ or whatever you're going to want to move out towards his nat and engage whatever army he has carefully. This means sending out 1 -2 scvs to scout. If microed properly you should be cost effective even against 2 gate ranged goon constant pump. If he has gone 2 gate goon into quick expo(like after 4 goons or so) you should even be able to end the game right away.
If he has gone reaver/proxy robo(basically you dont see him pressuring with goons or you see low goon count/no nexus. Or if you just suspect it, then wait a little bit for what would normally be the dt timing(should come around your 3rd tank anyways I believe) to make sure he is not going dt then scan his main. If hes going reaver just expand to your nat and play defensively with spread m n m and tank.
If he has gone dt or you suspect dt move out to pressure as normal with your scanner hot keyed of course and prepare to aggresive push to his main nexus with well microed mnn and well timed scans to ensure his dts cant run out of the scans.
If he has gone 3 gate youre basically just aiming to kill as many goons and or zs as possible while you take a faster nat expansion.
[Follow up after the initial rush]
The vast majority of the time your follow up plan is going to be to play defensively with 2 fact tank after your initial push of mnm/tank has died. While doing this add facts whenever possible while pumping. After 4-5 tanks to defend begin pumping vults while adding facts for a total of 6...if he has teched youll want an engineering bay after your 3rd fact. If your mnm are still alive use excess scans to pop obs.
You're basically preparing another timing push while harassing with vults/laying forward mines for map control. Feel free to use your scans to scout, vs a double expo you're going to aggresively but solidly push towards his choke, set up a strong position there, then move a few units to his 2nd expo. If he is just macroing off 2 base, play defensively while starting double armories and another cc at a nearby expo location.
[Pros/Cons]
Pros:
-This build is very versitle and safe vs any build protoss can throw at you provided you don't fuck up
-Can win you the game quickly
-Allows for excellent scouting throughout most of the game
-With good micro the build will frequently result in a cost effective trade off with p putting you in good position for midgame.
-Strong element of suprise if hidden skillfully.
Cons:
-Greatly delayed CC.
-Leaves you open to losing if outmicroed and therefore requires strong micro and multitask to pull off.
-Weak to a defensive 2 gate goon/range(above ramp) into reaver timing counter attack...but honestly never had this happen yet, so it may not even be that weak
-Requires careful attention to units(especially against dt), basically you're walking on a wire. Basically this build should only be used by expierenced players.
There is a lot more to it than this but this should give you a good idea of the ins and outs of the build. Hope you find it usefull or at least entertaining
[Example Replays]
[Some example replays]
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32460
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32459
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32458
Note: I'm really rusty, and these examples are not of polished versions of this build. Basically its possible to play this build much better than the examples I provided But hey youll get the idea. Oh, and because I want to be cool like lastshadow, please call this build the "Forever Rush", Thanks (kidding).
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your echoofrain? we used to pvp alot <---NeO)ReSpOnSe or ReSpOnSe[x.1] do you remember me maybe?:-D
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Of course dude
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I like the build, my mnm micro is too weak though.
Also, let's say on a flat wide entrance map like.. Longinus, Tau, etc...
How do you handle a hungry 2 gate, 15nd gate fast rush.
You know with such late siege and only few marines, you have your wang stuck in duck shit so....
Howd you shimmy out of a sticky icky spot?
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Um the siege isnt that late actually, i mean if you adapt to a hardcore goon rush that is If you see him with really early 2 gate then feel free to just get siege after your first tank. Youll have 7 marines by the time he has 2 goons at your front which is enough to defend with a couple scvs until your siege is done. But ya I've really just been using this on maps like python and other ramped maps. If they go hardcore probe cutting rush where they trade goons for marine kills you might have to just cc and abandon the timing push. But your cc should be significantly ahead of ps nexus. If he doesnt do this then he'll be scared off by a fast siege and probably expect you to cc afterward. This will potentially leave him wide open if he double expands or allow you to cost effectively engage his goons if he simply expands. Also you can wall in on longinus. Semi wall/Bunker+ repair stall is another option.
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your going to run out of scans if hes DTing... if he even sees 1 medic he will just send 1 dt at a time or just attack run to waste your scan.
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I believe that is why you try to get in his face and set up.
Ebay before CC in any form of aggresive builds anyways.
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Interesting...I will check out the build. It could be nice to use now and then in games to throw your opponent off.
Although I'm a bit worried about the DT part as well as it seems alot of tosses use them on ICCUP...
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If hes dting you can overrun him before he gets enough dts out to run out of your scans a lot of the time. With smooth micro you can get up his ramp pretty quick and youll have at least 4 scans to get up ramp/fight off dts while you take out his gates. Ya, also making ebay first before cc and setting up a contain at his nat is another option. 3 gate goon/speedzeal/dt would rape this build probably, but how often do people do this?
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you sh*****g me right? NaDa use the mnm/tank build @ the invitational, "i came up with it on my own" pfffft, the build hasnt even been done at ALL in any major game i've seen , prolly 1/10000 times its been done, so it pretty much IS new and popular
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On July 27 2007 09:32 Revolt wrote:
you sh*****g me right? NaDa use the mnm/tank build @ the invitational, "i made this up @ my own time" pfffft
jeez, the op already said he didn't invent the concept. he's fully aware it's nothing ground breaking or 100% new.
he probably meant he got the timings, unit ratios/combinations, and build order down by trial and error, and his own bw knowledge.
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On July 27 2007 09:35 dementus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2007 09:32 Revolt wrote:
you sh*****g me right? NaDa use the mnm/tank build @ the invitational, "i made this up @ my own time" pfffft jeez, the op already said he didn't invent the concept. he's fully aware it's nothing ground breaking or 100% new. he probably meant he got the timings, unit ratios/combinations, and build order down by trial and error, and his own bw knowledge.
Yep, and I'm sure nada didnt do it the exact same way Although I don't remember those games at all, so maybe he did. Either way, revolt try reading the first line of my post--
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Can you really cause any damage to a good 2gater who made constant goons?
You say "with good micro" but tbh I think the micro is really in the other players hands with goons vs m&m. Then again this rush might come sooner than i think
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
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On July 27 2007 09:46 ShabZzoY! wrote:
Can you really cause any damage to a good 2gater who made constant goons?
You say "with good micro" but tbh I think the micro is really in the other players hands with goons vs m&m. Then again this rush might come sooner than i think
It comes at slightly past 6 minutes.
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Oh and one more thing I wanted to mention. When you're in the preparing timing push phase, getting a total of 4 facts, scan his gates for a gate count. If he is preparing against a timing push then feel free to just expand again and add 2 armories + starport instead. And I did a test to see how many goons p could possibly have by 6:15, without sending a scouting probe at all, and with cutting the necessary probes to constantly be building goons from both gates when getting core at 14 and a second gate at 15 and its 11. This would obviously hold easily vs 11 marines 2 medics and 3 tanks with seige...but Ts expo will be much faster. And T can still get a good number of goon kills.
*Btw theres a banner ad for www.sementanks.com on teamliquid.net lmao. Yes they really do sell tanks for shipping semen...
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Interesting, will use it.
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I was also thinking this would be interesting to try vs T as well but with some scvs pulled to absorb tank fire. That's just theorycraft though. Haven't tested the practicality at all.
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I doubt it would work against T as vultures are simply too cost effective against marines.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Rines seem sloppy vs sieged tanks and more and more players open up with vults (this is almost mandatory on Geometry), so I don't really think it will have good TvT usage. But the TvP part is awesome. Much better than the "pressure" guide.
Btw, thx on explaining the adaptation/timing stuff of this build. This shit has been incredibly hard to counter for me in the past, now I think I will understand the build/defend better. The only drawback I see is that if toss gets a reaver or DT opening with a faster nexus and defends successfully (don't see how he can beat this with pure goons into fast nexus), he gains the upper hand. But overall it is indeed very strong.
Also, did you consider moving out earlier? You don't really need stim or siege when you're leaving your base (just don't be sloppy and bring an SCV a tank to repair if toss tries to slow the push, in case of medarine it's not a good idea unlike normal FD, so you will be ahead unless you screw micro), so it's ok if it finishes when you approach toss' base.
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EPT
