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After having played the game for 300 hours (which might not be a lot for everyone but for me personally that's quite a lot) i think i am finally done with the game. Why? Lets be real the game is built towards competitive play but hardly anyone does that. Most players just log on and pub. The game lacks critical features that would allow these players to transition. I know its just beta but i cant see much change towards launch. So you actually have a game that is build towards something nobody actually does and the game doesn't even try introduce these players to the COMPLETELY different competitive play.
The game suffers in multiple areas.
-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers (EDIT: I mean rating+the points you can spend on new heroes and skins). Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
-Horrible reward system. You might not even get anything for a 60 min match.
-Obscure skill rating system. What does that score even mean on your profile page. Saying "This chart shows how well you play a hero relative to those at your skill level" doesn't explain anything. What do i need to do to get a higher rating with a hero? Is my GPM too low? Is it the XPM? Nobody knows.
-Games are incredibly one sided most of the time. Only 20% of the games are actually challenging. Its either your team feeds and its 5-0 for the enemy team by the 7 minute mark and you feel totally hopeless and you can only watch as the world falls apart around you or you completely dominate the enemy which isn't much fun either.
-Lack of an English only server. I cant even communicate with my team most of the time because they don't speak English, yes the game is flooded with Russians that spam the chat in their native language nonstop
-Lack of built in help to find a team. How cool would it be if when you find a great great people in a pub game you could just click a "play again" button at the end of the match and easily play with them again.
-Lack of a balanced team mode where you could sign up as for example "support" and get matched with someone that signed up as carry, mid etc.., single draft is a complete joke.
-Pub games are so different from competitive play that it doesn't prepare you for the real thing at all.
-No real punishment for those that constantly ruin the game for others. What do you get for being reported? 2 days of low priority matchmaking where you simply don't get items nor xp?! Things nobody ever cares about.
Well that's it for now. I mostly wrote this for myself so i can just come back and read it whenever i get possessed by evil spirits that force me to play fake dota in hopes of eventually transitioning to the real game which will probably never happen.
  
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if you want to play league of legends, play league of legends, lol
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-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers. Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
The hidden MMR is to remove comparisons and set the idea of improvement on yourself. This has always been Valve's goal since TF2 and should be. You have levels, wins, most accomplished heros and tracking items like number of kills with your ultimate, etc.
These helps players feel like they're improving (Along with coming achievements) rather than create cynical comparisons with other players (K/D ratios, etc.)
All your complaints about Dota 2 aren't about Dota 2, but what surrounds it.
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LoL's "magic numbers" are going to be removed, btw. We are not happy about it.
Btw all those complaints exist in LoL and those are not valid complaints at all.
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On January 20 2013 04:46 Sufficiency wrote:
LoL's "magic numbers" are going to be removed, btw. We are not happy about it.
Btw all those complaints exist in LoL and those are not valid complaints at all.
No they arent they just create separate divisions.They are completely valid for me. Since this is my opinion and the way i see the game and what i think is missing. it might be different for you. You are entitled to your opinion.
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On January 20 2013 04:33 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers. Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items? The hidden MMR is to remove comparisons and set the idea of improvement on yourself. This has always been Valve's goal since TF2 and should be. You have levels, wins, most accomplished heros and tracking items like number of kills with your ultimate, etc. These helps players feel like they're improving (Along with coming achievements) rather than create cynical comparisons with other players (K/D ratios, etc.)
All your complaints about Dota 2 aren't about Dota 2, but what surrounds it.
Its what surrounds a game that makes it great. Not just a waste of your life.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers. Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
The vast majority of LoL's playerbase doesn't even play ranked on a regular basis. Visible MMR actually caters to a minority.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Horrible reward system. You might not even get anything for a 60 min match.
-Obscure skill rating system. What does that score even mean on your profile page. Saying "This chart shows how well you play a hero relative to those at your skill level" doesn't explain anything. What do i need to do to get a higher rating with a hero? Is my GPM too low? Is it the XPM? Nobody knows.
Valid. Both ideas are only really partially fleshed out, and I expect Valve to put effort into improving them once they move higher on the list of priorities.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Games are incredibly one sided most of the time. Only 20% of the games are actually challenging. Its either your team feeds and its 5-0 for the enemy team by the 7 minute mark and you feel totally hopeless and you can only watch as the world falls apart around you or you completely dominate the enemy which isn't much fun either.
Wouldn't say most of the time. Depends on what modes you queue/who you queue with.
When Valve expands the mode pool/adds new features like team matchmaking, it will help to sort out some of the matchmaking issues.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Lack of an English only server. I cant even communicate with my team most of the time because they don't speak English, yes the game is flooded with Russians that spam the chat in their native language nonstop
While I'm afraid I can't relate directly, most European players tell me that ping to USE isn't that bad for them.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Lack of built in help to find a team. How cool would it be if when you find a great great people in a pub game you could just click a "play again" button at the end of the match and easily play with them again.
Probably on the list of expanded social features like mentoring/etc. that's on Valve's to-do list.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Lack of a balanced team mode where you could sign up as for example "support" and get matched with someone that signed up as carry, mid etc.., single draft is a complete joke.
I think this mode could present a lot of problems (e.g. you can't arbitrarily define a specific subset of heroes as supports/carries because these things are not always that granular, which means someone could queue as a support and then pick a carry to grief his team--plus the number of supports/carries on a team is not set in stone). It's an interesting idea but poses a lot of problems in terms of implementation that I don't think are worth the headaches.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Pub games are so different from competitive play that it doesn't prepare you for the real thing at all.
This is an issue endemic to the genre and to the nature of teamplay-oriented games in general. Not specific to DotA 2.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-No real punishment for those that constantly ruin the game for others. What do you get for being reported? 2 days of low priority matchmaking where you simply don't get items nor xp?! Things nobody ever cares about.
Players actually do get punished for reports more harshly than just LP queue.
Overall some legitimate complaints, but some not all that well-thought-out.
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I think this mode could present a lot of problems (e.g. you can't arbitrarily define a specific subset of heroes as supports/carries because these things are not always that granular, which means someone could queue as a support and then pick a carry to grief his team--plus the number of supports/carries on a team is not set in stone). It's an interesting idea but poses a lot of problems in terms of implementation that I don't think are worth the headaches.
Not if you restrict the pool for roles so that those that sign up as support cant pick a carry. Hell you might not even want every here present. But a rotation of 5 heroes / role / week. Maybe not the best solution but at least would present a somewhat balanced way to play the game.
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Under those magical LOL numbers i also mean the points you get with which you can purchase new heroes/skins etc. Thats also progress on a smaller scale.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 20 2013 05:17 AKRW wrote:Show nested quote +I think this mode could present a lot of problems (e.g. you can't arbitrarily define a specific subset of heroes as supports/carries because these things are not always that granular, which means someone could queue as a support and then pick a carry to grief his team--plus the number of supports/carries on a team is not set in stone). It's an interesting idea but poses a lot of problems in terms of implementation that I don't think are worth the headaches. Not if you restrict the pool for roles so that those that sign up as support cant pick a carry. Hell you might not even want every here present. But a rotation of 5 heroes / role / week. Maybe not the best solution but at least would present a somewhat balanced way to play the game.
See that's the problem I raised. You can't arbitrarily label heroes as supports, carries, gankers, or other roles as easily as you can in LoL. Outside of a few extremes of obvious carries and obvious supports, there is an enormous area of overlap over how heroes can be played, and it's unreasonable for Valve to make those kinds of distinctions.
LoL has an easier time with this because by design the majority of heroes are designed INTO a particular role, whereas Icefrog's hero design is much more organic.
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The biggest issue you mentioned, to me, is that you can barely play "real" dota in pubs. The random crap that happens in the average game of dota has nothing to do with "competitive" play, as you call it. It is so far from anything coherent or cooperative it feels like 10 random people just playing random heroes.
At least in SC2 I can do things that resemble "pro" play. Of course I can't execute the same, but my games at least resemble something that I would call a coherent game of sc2. This is impossible in pubs. The game is too complex for the vast majority of the player base. These are the bronze and silver league players of sc2. They simply don't care about improving at the game, and it shows, so there is nothing you can do to improve at the game, outside of joining a team.
edit: Regarding no punishment, there are 2 major issues. The first is that is seems extremely lax (if half of what I thought should be a bannable offense for repeat offenders counted, probably 30-40% of the player base would be gone). The second is that even if somehow someone does get BANNED (which I'm not even sure can happen) everyone has like 5+ keys on their account, so they can just use a different account.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 20 2013 05:22 HardlyNever wrote:
The biggest issue you mentioned, to me, is that you can barely play "real" dota in pubs. The random crap that happens in the average game of dota has nothing to do with "competitive" play, as you call it. It is so far from anything coherent or cooperative it feels like 10 random people just playing random heroes.
At least in SC2 I can do things that resemble "pro" play. Of course I can't execute the same, but my games at least resemble something that I would call a coherent game of sc2. This is impossible in pubs. The game is too complex for the vast majority of the player base. These are the bronze and silver league players of sc2. They simply don't care about improving at the game, and it shows, so there is nothing you can do to improve at the game, outside of joining a team.
It's as true in DotA as it is in any other teamplay-based game. It's most definitely true in HoN and LoL as well.
You can't really easily tackle that issue because of the way playing a coordinated game with 5 people is totally different from playing one with 5 random people who don't know each other, and don't have any form of communication other than chat/pings.
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On January 20 2013 05:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 05:17 AKRW wrote:I think this mode could present a lot of problems (e.g. you can't arbitrarily define a specific subset of heroes as supports/carries because these things are not always that granular, which means someone could queue as a support and then pick a carry to grief his team--plus the number of supports/carries on a team is not set in stone). It's an interesting idea but poses a lot of problems in terms of implementation that I don't think are worth the headaches. Not if you restrict the pool for roles so that those that sign up as support cant pick a carry. Hell you might not even want every here present. But a rotation of 5 heroes / role / week. Maybe not the best solution but at least would present a somewhat balanced way to play the game. See that's the problem I raised. You can't arbitrarily label heroes as supports, carries, gankers, or other roles as easily as you can in LoL. Outside of a few extremes of obvious carries and obvious supports, there is an enormous area of overlap over how heroes can be played, and it's unreasonable for Valve to make those kinds of distinctions. LoL has an easier time with this because by design the majority of heroes are designed INTO a particular role, whereas Icefrog's hero design is much more organic.
I havent played much LOL. Not a fan of the game so i dont know how it is there. But in Dota2 the heroes are already labeled maybe not 100% accurate but better than nothing.
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On January 20 2013 05:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 05:22 HardlyNever wrote:
The biggest issue you mentioned, to me, is that you can barely play "real" dota in pubs. The random crap that happens in the average game of dota has nothing to do with "competitive" play, as you call it. It is so far from anything coherent or cooperative it feels like 10 random people just playing random heroes.
At least in SC2 I can do things that resemble "pro" play. Of course I can't execute the same, but my games at least resemble something that I would call a coherent game of sc2. This is impossible in pubs. The game is too complex for the vast majority of the player base. These are the bronze and silver league players of sc2. They simply don't care about improving at the game, and it shows, so there is nothing you can do to improve at the game, outside of joining a team. It's as true in DotA as it is in any other teamplay-based game. It's most definitely true in HoN and LoL as well.
Probably. I only played LoL for a little while, and never played HoN. I guess these types of games really just aren't for me. They are fun every once in a while but the minute you try to take it seriously, you are bound to be disappointed.
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On January 20 2013 05:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 05:22 HardlyNever wrote:
The biggest issue you mentioned, to me, is that you can barely play "real" dota in pubs. The random crap that happens in the average game of dota has nothing to do with "competitive" play, as you call it. It is so far from anything coherent or cooperative it feels like 10 random people just playing random heroes.
At least in SC2 I can do things that resemble "pro" play. Of course I can't execute the same, but my games at least resemble something that I would call a coherent game of sc2. This is impossible in pubs. The game is too complex for the vast majority of the player base. These are the bronze and silver league players of sc2. They simply don't care about improving at the game, and it shows, so there is nothing you can do to improve at the game, outside of joining a team. It's as true in DotA as it is in any other teamplay-based game. It's most definitely true in HoN and LoL as well. You can't really easily tackle that issue because of the way playing a coordinated game with 5 people is totally different from playing one with 5 random people who don't know each other, and don't have any form of communication other than chat/pings.
it is possible in pubs to have coherent and clean teamplay, but somebody simply cant jump into it without a pile of knowledge and experience and willing teammates. if people dont want to commit the time for it because they dont think pub dota is fun and games dont look like games from TI2, guess what! much of the mechanics and decisionmaking in pub dota is foundational to competitive dota. if you dont want to bother pubbing dont bother playing dota or hon or lol
i've also heard a million times that you cant improve if your teammates are trash, which is simply untrue
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Australia7069 Posts
Another issue with the whole "queue as support/carry" etc is how the lanes get assigned. Like do you force all games to be 2 support/1 long lane/1 mid/ 1 carry?
by forcing that kind of setup, or whatever setup you think is correct you remove the beauty of dota, which is that the same set of heroes can end up in completely different lane setups. do u wanna play axe as your solo mid to counter a TA or is he in the jungle to open up another solo lane? do you run an agressive trilane in a dual carry lineup or have a solo long lane with a trilane carry?
dota isn't a one setup game, and that's why your idea cant work without seriously diminishing it.
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On January 20 2013 05:47 Kiante wrote:
Another issue with the whole "queue as support/carry" etc is how the lanes get assigned. Like do you force all games to be 2 support/1 long lane/1 mid/ 1 carry?
by forcing that kind of setup, or whatever setup you think is correct you remove the beauty of dota, which is that the same set of heroes can end up in completely different lane setups. do u wanna play axe as your solo mid to counter a TA or is he in the jungle to open up another solo lane? do you run an agressive trilane in a dual carry lineup or have a solo long lane with a trilane carry?
dota isn't a one setup game, and that's why your idea cant work without seriously diminishing it.
Yeah but we are talking about a pub game. These things can be discussed in chat and people either listen or they dont. You dont force any kind of setup you just limit the pool so the composition makes sense so you dont end up with 3 mid heroes on your team or 5 carries.
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Australia7069 Posts
but what if I want to play SD mid. do i queue as support, pick SD and walk mid?
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On January 20 2013 06:08 Kiante wrote:
but what if I want to play SD mid. do i queue as support, pick SD and walk mid?
The whole point is that if you queue as support you wouldn't be able to play SD. You would have to queue as mid.
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Dota2, like league, is a game best played with 4 other friends you actually know lol. Solo-queue is pretty bad I will agree.
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On January 20 2013 06:28 AKRW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 06:08 Kiante wrote:
but what if I want to play SD mid. do i queue as support, pick SD and walk mid? The whole point is that if you queue as support you wouldn't be able to play SD. You would have to queue as mid.
SD = Shadow Demon, right?
I've played him multiple times as support.
That is the point of the others, there are heroes which can fulfill different roles.
On the other hand, I agree that it wouldnt be too bad if there's a system where I can queue as "support". Just without hero restrictions.
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EPT
