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Active: 13120 users

[Aligulac May 29 list] Ascent of the INnoVator

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3825 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-03 20:24:53
May 30 2013 10:29 GMT
#1
POSTED BEFORE THE RATING CHANGE, THEREFORE NOT RELEVANT CURRENTLY

Specific feedback and feature requests should go here: Aligulac.com changelog and feedback thread

We have a FAQ here. FAQ means Frequently Asked Questions. Odds are your Question is Frequently Asked.
Visit us aligulac.com


If you have an idea on how to improve the ranking, please read this first:
+ Show Spoiler +
One of the most common forms of feedback we get are about how to improve the rating. These are not bad ideas, they're pretty good, but they might be more complicated than you think. Here are some common ones.

One thing to keep in mind is that a good mathematical model has few parameters. The current rating system has three. Those three parameters are sufficient to give Aligulac the predictive power it has. If you want to suggest complicating the model, the additional parameters must be chosen with care.

Games in regular online tournaments shouldn't count as much as Code S. Well, first we have to realize that games are weighted, in a sense, by opponent skill. You get more points for beating a higher rated opponent than a lower, and you lose more points by losing to a lower rated opponent than a higher. In addition it is worth considering that simply weighing games higher will not automatically increase the rating of those playing. The winners will gain more points, true, but the losers will also lose more. The mean rating of the players playing will not change.

So aside from this, how should this weighing work?

Even stronger weighing by opponent? The "weighing" is a result of a Bayesian inversion formula depending on the underlying probability model chosen. It's not something that can just be changed, that is, there's no parameter encoding this. It's a much deeper mathematical concept.

Weighing by mean rating of opponent in a round? Well, why should this be any better than weighing by the actual opponents faced, which is what we already do?

Weighing by prize pool? The theory goes that strong players are likely to "try harder" if the prize is higher. There is some merit to this idea, but there are also problems. Some tournaments offer prizes in equipment, and not money. Some offer qualification to a higher tier. For example, there is no monetary prize in the GSL Up and Down groups, but nobody would question the incentive to win there. In addition, there are internal team incentives which are not generally public knowledge. And, additionally, if a player knowingly plays weaker in some games, should that not be reflected in the ratings?

Weighing by tournament? These arguments usually involve some classification of events into tiers of importance with coefficients associated with each level. This approach runs into the complexity problem. With five levels (say), the model becomes far more complicated for what is not shown (yet, anyway) to be reasonable benefit.

Weighing by online and offline? Yes, this is a legitimate idea and probably the one closest to being implemented. We have working experimental code with this feature already.

Rating gap cap. The idea here is to prevent players from "farming" much lower rated players. It is possible to artificially inflate a player's rating if he never plays other players close to himself in skill. The ideas usually consist of ignoring matches where players are farther away in rating than a given threshold. However, this can be seen as unfair to the lower rated players, who will have their wins against good players discarded. Capping the gap to a given value will make the problem worse. Say a 1700-rated player plays a 1000-rated player, but the cap is 500, so for the purposes of updating the stronger player's rating the lower rated player is assumed to be rated 1200. Then it will be easier for the 1700-rated player to overperform than it was previously.

Remember, even though your idea sounds great, it isn't necessarily useful, we actually test many of the ideas proposed, and so far, not many of them improve anything.

This week, I will bring you the write-up, courtesy of TheBB being busy with that PhD of his and my 3 month holiday which started yesterday. Now before we get into this, remember that a difference of around 250 or less means that there is no statistically significant difference between two players, but who am I kidding, you just want to rage and yell at our stats, so here we go.

The list:
  1. kr Life 1883 (No change)
  2. es LucifroN 1857 (+44: WCS EU, EMS, RSL gNations)
  3. kr ForGG 1840 (-23: WCS EU, ATC)
  4. kr Polt 1834 (-25: WCS AM,ZOTAC Cup)
  5. kr INnoVation 1827 (+84: WCS KR, Proleague)
  6. kr Flash 1804 (+11: Proleague)
  7. kr Leenock 1790 (-43: WCS KR, GSTL, )
  8. kr viOLet 1763 (No change)
  9. kr Bomber 1760 (-28: WCS KR, GSTL)
  10. kr PartinG 1753 (-38: WCS KR, Proleague)


Honorable mentions: HyuN, Mvp, Rain, Soulkey, Symbol, First, RorO, sOs.

The biggest "winner" this period is definitely INnoVation who is working his way up to that #1 spot. With Life not having played the last 2 weeks and ForGG and Polt losing points, the #1 spot looks up for grabs, especially since LucifroN didn't qualify for WCS Season 1 Finals. However LucifroN could also take it by "farming" the EU scene, however with the level of opponents, he has to win a lot to get there. Hopefully INnoVation can get #1 so we doesn't have a Lucifrocalypse on our hands.

WHY IS FORGG SO HIGHLY RANKED? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!
Well, glad you asked, ForGG is so highly ranked, mainly because he has a pretty good TvT. With a 52-5 in games and 29-2 in matches in HotS TvT, he has accumulated a great deal of points. However, with the WCS Season 1 finals coming up, let's see how it measures up to the TvT of INnoVation (and maybe Ryung and aLive). Actually INnoVation's ranking is equally dominated by his stellar TvZ. We are still waiting for his TvP and TvT to catch up, in point-stealing, not in skill.

WHERE ARE THE REST OF THE KESPA PLAYERS? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!
As has also been discussed a great deal of times, the Kespa players are slowly but surely catching up, with the Kespa players entry into the GSL/OSL/WCS, more and more points are transferred between scenes, and as such, the "Kespa point pool" grows. It is however an issue that most of these points ends up with a few players that constantly bash the rest of the players (Flash, INnoVation, Soulkey, sOs, PartinG, Rain etc.) meaning that non-aces are still highly underrated, as for now, we are still contemplating what to do.

The foreigner list:
  1. es LucifroN 1857 (+44: WCS EU, EMS, RSL gNations)
  2. tw Sen 1638 (-46: WCS AM)
  3. no Snute 1632 (+39: WCS AM, Norwegian Starleague, ZOTAC, ATC)
  4. es VortiX 1629 (-24: WCS EU, EMS)
  5. ua Kas 1623 (-43: WCS EU, EMS, ZOTAC, Gigabyte Quals)
  6. [image loading] Happy 1615 (-11: WCS EU, Ener J, EMS)
  7. fi Welmu 1609 (-20: WCS EU, Go4SC2 )
  8. cn Jim 1596 (+13: WCS AM)
  9. fr Stephano 1579 (+4: WCS EU)
  10. ca Scarlett 1562 (-22: WCS AM, GSTL)
(Russian flag is still bugged. Извините!)

Honorable mentions: Nerchio, Dayshi, NaNiwa, Bunny, TLO, Bly, HasuObs.

Biggest winner on the foreigner list is LucifroN, although he didn't qualify for WCS Season 1 Finals, his performance the last 2 weeks have still been solid and have given him a lot of points. Snute also did well in a lot of smaller events, granting him points while most of the WCS EU players lost points.

Shout outs this week for TheAmazombie, he has been slowly but steadily working his way through our old matches and categorizing them into events (which is the most boring job to do). Shout out to the new guys in our team, more programmers means more new features in the pipeline. Shout out to all the WCS EU hosts and casters, all their retweets have given us around 150 new twitter followers :D. Shout out to Madals for giving great feedback on how to make the site easier/better to use for casters. As always, special shout out to Kaelaris for shamelessly promoting our site during WCS EU <3. Finally shout out to Waxangel and the rest of "The Pitchfork Preserver"-crew for this gem.

If you want to get in contact with us or have suggestion feel free to use:
  • This thread.
  • Twitter @Sc2Aligulac.
  • PM. Me or TheBB.
  • IRC: #aligulac on quakenet.
  • E-mail to evfonn(at)gmail(dot)com.
  • Issue list on GitHub.
  • Pilgrimage to Zürich. TheBB will find you.


We will as always answer questions regarding the write-up in this thread.

Remember, this is not the greatest large dynamic paired comparison experiment system, this is just a tribute
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
DinosaurPoop
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
687 Posts
May 30 2013 10:36 GMT
#2
let the KeSPAgeddon begin
When cats speak, mice listen.
Wodger
Profile Joined October 2008
Scotland380 Posts
May 30 2013 10:38 GMT
#3
I input some data, am I a traitor?
TheAmazombie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States3714 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-30 10:39:33
May 30 2013 10:39 GMT
#4
On May 30 2013 19:29 Grovbolle wrote:
(Russian flag is still bugged. Извините!)


Russian flag bugged?! Your system sucks!!! Hehe. Also, bonus points for mentioning me. =)
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. -Charlie Chaplin
mnck
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark1518 Posts
May 30 2013 10:39 GMT
#5
Life still the best!
@Munck
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3825 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-30 10:42:42
May 30 2013 10:41 GMT
#6
On May 30 2013 19:39 TheAmazombie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2013 19:29 Grovbolle wrote:
(Russian flag is still bugged. Извините!)


Russian flag bugged?! Your system sucks!!! Hehe. Also, bonus points for mentioning me. =)

Blame R1CH
:ru this is what I get if I try : ru without the space.
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
badeanden
Profile Joined December 2011
Norway56 Posts
May 30 2013 10:42 GMT
#7
Thank you for this Aligulac! I always find statistics and graphs very interesting, and especially yours. I also love the predicitons you make by pure statistics in big tournaments, and I like that casters are starting to use it more and more. Great job keep it up
Snute will be the new Stephano in 2013! Mark my words
Usagi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Spain1647 Posts
May 30 2013 10:42 GMT
#8
The forGGdon was a big threat, but I cant not imagine what would happen if t is Lucifron who grabs the #1 spot, that would let the hounds of rage free!
Damnight
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany222 Posts
May 30 2013 10:56 GMT
#9
I love Alligulac! I wonder how long it'll take TLO to break in, he's like 300pts behind I think....

Btw, Scarlett has the wrong colour or pts (green even though she lost points?)
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3825 Posts
May 30 2013 10:58 GMT
#10
On May 30 2013 19:56 Damnight wrote:
I love Alligulac! I wonder how long it'll take TLO to break in, he's like 300pts behind I think....

Btw, Scarlett has the wrong colour or pts (green even though she lost points?)

I thought today was the day I would post a thread without editing it at least 5 times. I guess I was wrong. :D

TLO needs around 70 points to enter foreigner top 10. If he does well at WCS Grand finals, it might happen.
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
StarGalaxy
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany744 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-30 11:00:28
May 30 2013 10:59 GMT
#11
<3 alligulac!
Cj hero | Zest
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
May 30 2013 11:10 GMT
#12
Looking at the top 20, it's mostly all the names you'd expect to be floating around. It's only the order at the top that's a little surprising (and that's to be expected I guess).

You might want to provide a proper link to aligulac in your post, couldn't find a proper one and navigated there via your FAQ clicky :p
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-30 11:11:44
May 30 2013 11:11 GMT
#13
WHY IS FORGG SO HIGHLY RANKED? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!


WHERE ARE THE REST OF THE KESPA PLAYERS? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!


WHY IS TLO NOT NUMBER ONE? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
JK; as always, great work!


Edit: added extra exclamation marks.
StarVe
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany13591 Posts
May 30 2013 11:15 GMT
#14
On May 30 2013 20:11 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
WHY IS FORGG SO HIGHLY RANKED? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!


Show nested quote +
WHERE ARE THE REST OF THE KESPA PLAYERS? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!


WHY IS TLO NOT NUMBER ONE? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
JK; as always, great work!


Edit: added extra exclamation marks.

Let me put things right.

On May 16 2013 23:42 StarVe wrote:
The real foreigner list, by popular demand.

  1. de TLO
  2. se Naniwa
  3. ca Scarlett
  4. nl Grubby
  5. ca HuK
  6. ua White-Ra
  7. se ThorZaIN
  8. uk Demuslim
  9. us IdrA
  10. de TLO
  11. kr Dragon


Trust me, guys, it's totally based on some numbers.

Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3825 Posts
May 30 2013 11:16 GMT
#15
On May 30 2013 20:10 marvellosity wrote:
Looking at the top 20, it's mostly all the names you'd expect to be floating around. It's only the order at the top that's a little surprising (and that's to be expected I guess).

You might want to provide a proper link to aligulac in your post, couldn't find a proper one and navigated there via your FAQ clicky :p

Exactly, which is why I provided the "Difference of less than 250" thingy. With so few matches (relative to the amount of players) it is hard to get a perfect ranking.
Just added a link :-P
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
May 30 2013 11:27 GMT
#16
On May 16 2013 23:42 StarVe wrote:
The real foreigner list, by popular demand.

  1. de TLO
  2. se Naniwa
  3. ca Scarlett
  4. nl Grubby
  5. ca HuK
  6. ua White-Ra
  7. se ThorZaIN
  8. uk Demuslim
  9. us IdrA
  10. de TLO
  11. kr Dragon


Trust me, guys, it's totally based on some numbers.


TLO on the list as Terran and Zerg... lmao
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33715 Posts
May 30 2013 11:35 GMT
#17
WHERE IS HELO RANKINGS? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
May 30 2013 11:35 GMT
#18
On May 30 2013 20:15 StarVe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2013 20:11 Big J wrote:
WHY IS FORGG SO HIGHLY RANKED? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!


WHERE ARE THE REST OF THE KESPA PLAYERS? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!


WHY IS TLO NOT NUMBER ONE? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
JK; as always, great work!


Edit: added extra exclamation marks.

Let me put things right.

Show nested quote +
On May 16 2013 23:42 StarVe wrote:
The real foreigner list, by popular demand.

  1. de TLO
  2. se Naniwa
  3. ca Scarlett
  4. nl Grubby
  5. ca HuK
  6. ua White-Ra
  7. se ThorZaIN
  8. uk Demuslim
  9. us IdrA
  10. de TLO
  11. kr Dragon


Trust me, guys, it's totally based on some numbers.



Oh thanks. Though it is missing
us Stephano
Tufas
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Austria2259 Posts
May 30 2013 11:38 GMT
#19
On May 16 2013 23:42 StarVe wrote:
The real foreigner list, by popular demand.

  1. de TLO
  2. se Naniwa
  3. ca Scarlett
  4. nl Grubby
  5. ca HuK
  6. ua White-Ra
  7. se ThorZaIN
  8. uk Demuslim
  9. us IdrA
  10. de TLO
  11. kr Dragon


Trust me, guys, it's totally based on some numbers.


Sadly could not log in the first time I read it but that still cracks me up so hard, because its so true hahaha

Where is my ACE flair
Targe
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14103 Posts
May 30 2013 11:41 GMT
#20
On May 30 2013 20:15 StarVe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2013 20:11 Big J wrote:
WHY IS FORGG SO HIGHLY RANKED? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!


WHERE ARE THE REST OF THE KESPA PLAYERS? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!


WHY IS TLO NOT NUMBER ONE? YOUR SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!!

+ Show Spoiler +
JK; as always, great work!


Edit: added extra exclamation marks.

Let me put things right.

Show nested quote +
On May 16 2013 23:42 StarVe wrote:
The real foreigner list, by popular demand.

  1. de TLO
  2. se Naniwa
  3. ca Scarlett
  4. nl Grubby
  5. ca HuK
  6. ua White-Ra
  7. se ThorZaIN
  8. uk Demuslim
  9. us IdrA
  10. de TLO
  11. kr Dragon


Trust me, guys, it's totally based on some numbers.



lol TLO reppin T and Z.
11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main
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