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Hello there,
As you all might know due to the past patches there have been to a lot of balance changes. These balance changes compleated changed the games dynamic as well as how each match up is approched.
I use be a protoss player from brood war transitioning to starcraft 2. I then switched races later on to Terran because I liked the diversity in builds you can do vs each race.
Terran back in the day were extreamly strong. There early game was ridiculus as well as there mid game. However they lacked a late game strategy, but the late game wasn't too bad.
To keep mind about early game vs terran back in the day, majority of the maps were all small sized-medium. This ofcourse made cheese easy to execute and made terran pressure more viable.
Due to this, zergs and protoss players alike all complained that terran is over powered. Blizzard then decided to nerf the stem and barracks timing making it a bit longer. When this happened protoss also got a nerf which was nearly a big deal but later on made complete sense. The nerf on high templar starting energy upgrade was most probably one of the smartest nerfs I have seen.
Later on, zergs started complaining that terran is always bunker rushing them. I myself did already make the switch to terran and saw that bunker rushes were extreamly effective against zerg. Blizzard then nerfed the bunker of course which I 100% agreed with. Sometime there the medivac nerf was also done, making medivacs slower. I truly didn't feel any change when this nerf happened but it seems like it was necessary.
Later on zergs gained various buffs and nerfs that caused them to be close to the balanced state. (disregarding the queens range buff)
Protoss players then complained (talking about lower ranks) that protoss was too weak. So blizzard decided to buff them and nerf TvP. Protoss gained cheaper upgrades (which isn't really a big deal), immortal range buff (this was a great buff), archons became massive (GREAT NICE!), and range of pylon was decreased (nerf on 4 gate) as well as the warp gate research being longer. (4 gate nerf). with this protoss was close to being balanced.
However Terran was nerfed drastically after this. EMP nerf became worrisome. I am ok with the decrease in size of the EMP, but i am not ok with the damage it does. The shield story i felt was balanced. you EMP a unit with higher than 100 shields it doesn't drain all the shields. That was a great job by Blizzard to nerf the terran EMP. However the energy story is a joke. So when you EMP the high Templar cluster. They can still technically storm ur army (three storms kill mmm i think) and you are left there wondering. what can i now. Along with this high templars can also feed back your ghosts. Now get this, Feed back drains all your energy on your ghosts AND deals damage. -_-. this is imbalanced.
I for one think that Terran is a bit weak and needs at least 1 buff to get them going. To me Zerg is balanced as it is. TvZ doesn't seem imbalanced. ZvP is almost balanced (since protoss has to approach zerg in a different matter) but there are some tune ups that need to happen to make the match up completely balanced. TvP is the only match up i feel is imbalanced. Terran doesn't have a late game build that can defeat the protoss death ball.
My final thoughts are that for Terran blizzard must give the ghosts back the EMP full drain on energy. With this nerfed it made me feel blizzard is trying to make starcraft 2 feel less similar to starcraft BW.
And my question for the readers who took there time reading my thoughts is:
If Blizzard didn't do any balance changes, but implemented the new maps which is currently on ladder, which race(s) would have the better advantage?
 
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you should know that Terran was incredibly overpowered during the beta stages/initial release, and these nerfs toward T every patch just made it more balanced.
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After terran being on top for so long, terran has had a reset and that kind of screwed up the racial movement. The thing is that people are still using beta strats as terran, they are not using mech in different ways to make it work, they are not encompassing ravens or BCs in sky / mech terran, and that is what is going to be necessary for the new terran race. Until HoTS comes out, terran is going to need to get creative, just like protoss and zerg have done.
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On July 31 2012 14:36 docvoc wrote:
After terran being on top for so long, terran has had a reset and that kind of screwed up the racial movement. The thing is that people are still using beta strats as terran, they are not using mech in different ways to make it work, they are not encompassing ravens or BCs in sky / mech terran, and that is what is going to be necessary for the new terran race. Until HoTS comes out, terran is going to need to get creative, just like protoss and zerg have done.
Brood lord corruptor infestor is so creative that somehow every zerg came up with it on their own, cause they are very innovative, and use it every game vs every race cause they like versatility.
I really envy people who think terran metagame is stale and think the reason why terrans with godlike mechanics are losing to not so godlike tosses and zergs only because they are using 'beta strats'.
When blizzard nerf zerg to the ground, and all zergs get demoted and destroyed at tournaments, it is going to be me who offers helpful advice to my zerg brethren of the type: use more overseers, overseers are the future, or broodlord infestor was so yesterday, use overseers instead.
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I think Terrans have innovated the most out of any race. That's why they keep getting nerfed... and they find new ways to break the metagame.
I blame Mvp. xD
Nowadays, TaeJa is making Terran look imba. Don't hate the race, hate the player who just facerolled you because he outplayed you soooo bad.
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On July 31 2012 16:18 Entirety wrote:
I think Terrans have innovated the most out of any race. That's why they keep getting nerfed... and they find new ways to break the metagame.
I blame Mvp. xD
Nowadays, TaeJa is making Terran look imba. Don't hate the race, hate the player who just facerolled you because he outplayed you soooo bad.
Lots of zerg and protoss players innovating right now xD
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There were some Terran builds that help Terrans win games regardless of whether they know what they are doing or not. 2rax in open season 3 was worse than 1-1-1, random Terran players could easily knock out top-notch Zerg players just by making 2 barracks, rallying marines and completing a bunker near Zerg's natural hatchery. And there was 1-1-1, which made TvP an auto-win for Terrans back in the days. So yeah, nerfs were pretty much necessary.
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On July 31 2012 21:16 Djagulingu wrote:
There were some Terran builds that help Terrans win games regardless of whether they know what they are doing or not. 2rax in open season 3 was worse than 1-1-1, random Terran players could easily knock out top-notch Zerg players just by making 2 barracks, rallying marines and completing a bunker near Zerg's natural hatchery. And there was 1-1-1, which made TvP an auto-win for Terrans back in the days. So yeah, nerfs were pretty much necessary.
Back in the day I played toss at masters level and I never had any trouble defending 111. I just did not open 1 gate expand and I almost never lost to it. As a matter of fact, at the same period as terran I was losing more games than winning when trying to 111 the toss, again at high masters. I acknowledge it as a strong build, but, if scouted, it is extremely easy to stop. Your argument about top toss zerg players being beaten by random terran players is a complete fallacy. No tournament anywhere was won by a nobody terran.
Compare it to the current situation where we have doubts whether a code s terran can defeat a zerg newcomer, I think you must realize how overpowered zerg is currently. And it is not because of the recent buffs that zerg became so strong. It is because the zerg players have slightly improved their mechanics as a whole. This slight improvement, even of most of the best zerg players places their mechanics somewhere around what good terran mechanics used to be a year and half ago, yet even with mediocre at best mechanics zerg players like Stephano can easily beat code s terrans. Now we can easily see that a huge nerf to zerg is coming, so no more random zerg players getting under the spotlight for the wrong reasons.
edt.
Also, please avoid the term autowin. Indeed back in the day we saw 111 give terrans a really high percentage win rate (about 70%) yet we still saw it get defended in the other 30%. If you consider this an autowin, then you must also consider playing Zerg in ZvT an autowin since last month gsl win rate in ZvT was 80%.
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I personally love tvz as terran and zerg. i used to be a zerg player but now i play terran so I have been through both sides of the matchup and i like the matchup as a whole <3
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United States10101 Posts
As Destiny would always say, Terrans have marines, they don't even need to get to late-game and use their full potential xD
nah nah jkjk, not a balance whine at all. Terrans have started using a late-game transition of mass ravens :D I mean, spellcasters basically rule the game. energy is free after all, and if you can make free units to kill other units, why not? That's why infestors are amazing, that's why ravens are amazing. I wonder how a mid game transition in mech from bio and then another retransition into bio + ravens late game would look. Feels like brood war 
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For what it's worth, your comparison of Feedback vs. EMP is largely flawed, in the fact that you've ignored the fact that EMP is an AoE effect. Feedback is supposed to be significantly stronger than EMP on a single target, it'd be under-powered if it wasn't. Not to mention you can EMP the entirety of Toss's army, whereas Feedback doesn't work on every unit in the Terran arsenal.
I'm not going to give any original thoughts on how I think balance should work myself, because I'm terrible at the game and don't have a great understanding of it either. But the EMP vs. Feedback comparison is simply false.
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taeja and major > this thread
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On August 01 2012 02:59 ParkwayDrive wrote:
taeja and major > this thread
I love when people try and use 1 or 2 players to represent racial balance. Yes so Taeja can actually beat Losira and viOlet in TvZ post queen patch. Taeja is a phenominal TvZer, no secret there. However, just because one or a few players are having succes vs. Zerg doesn't mean the matchup is fine. FruitDealer and Nestea had success with Zerg when Terran was imba, but that didn't change the fact that Terran was imba.
As for majOr... I didn't see the games but I heard he lost games 1 & 2 with bio, and won the rest with Mech... interesting.
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i understand my comment was an over generalization but maybe u should watch the games and study them instead of bitching about it. byun is another one
just a thought, who is to say that overall zerg larva injecting is just getting better so zergs are beginning to get the edge. maybe there will be a next step in terran strategy/mechanics that is just waiting to be figured out
i will say though that i find it very frustrating to watch a terran play a flawless early and mid game and trade well in the late game once or even twice only to lose because its impossible for them to remax as quickly as zerg or toss due to larva and warps. i dont know if this is a fundamental flaw that needs a patch or not to fix but even as someone who despises terran it is frustrating to see them get punished for this.
also i want to see infestors getting sniped. so many zerg games can be decided by saving/losing your infestors in an engagement regardless of how you traded and its such a bitch to get the gas to keep pumping out infestors in the late game.
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overall in stats terran is doing the worst in all the leagues (except bronze). the race that is excelling in the ladder matches are the zergs and protoss (the numbers are so freaken close).
also remember that pro gamers can be the exception to this thread. I say this because not everyone is a grandmasters or high masters player that play in different servers and practice full time on the game.
This thread is more directed at the ladder and the progression of the races.
Also to add i feel that EMP's nerf was to strong due to the fact that during a late game fight vs a protoss death ball. terran would emp BUT what if the protoss releases most of there storms on top of the terran army before emp is casted? emp is not enough to deal with the high templars/archons. emps drain only 100 energy and not ALL the energy of psionic units. This is the problem for me. if the protoss spreads his high templars in a fashion that emp's have to be scattered. the protoss can still give off storms. emp can only be casted twice per ghosts and it only drains the protoss army. storms can still be done and it will damage the army severely.
Basically i am saying that terran needs a death ball that can compete and have close battles vs the other races deathball.
ParkwayDrive also brings up a good argument about terran can not macro as fast as the other 2 races.
dont take this to drastically but maybe terran needs that tech lab reactor upgrade that is in the campaign to be able to remax as fast as the other 2 races.
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^^
thats what so hard when it comes to balance with the way the ladder is now. you were arguing from the laddering perspective i was arguing from a pro perspective and both our conclusions are sound.
this goes back to blizz philosophy of balance across all skill levels. while we all can agree this is the most ideal outcome, it is damn near impossible to achieve perfectly on all skills levels. in BW there wasnt nearly the stats and data on matchups and skill level that there is now with sc2. with the technology we have now and with the tiered ladder we can get perfect data across all skill levels. sometimes this wealth of info causes overcompensation. i mean seriously how can you balance something as complex as sc2 across ALL skill levels.
a guy like taeja can make terran look overpowered by dropping in 3 places at once and microing them all somehow...yet a platinum leaguer like me can barely handle one drop effectively while keeping macro. and since drops are essential to terran survival a player who cant as easily multitask will believe himself to be underpowered. if u nerf drops so that platinum players can better deal then a guy like taeja is wrecked. and this is just one basic hypothetical example if not the best example. you can play the same theorycraft out in any number of situations and actions that can be made in a match.
so really cut blizzard some slack if u actually want them to balance the game at all levels. i am of the opinion the game should be balance for pro and top master play first and foremost. anyone lower should just work on macro and engagments.
lets just think about if the game was perfectly balanced at the top level of play. 50/50/50 in gsl win %. hypothetical i know.
well as a platinum player it sucks having to swallow the fact that maybe there is a balance issue only at platinum levels and below and it makes it hard for the my platinum terran play equal to platinum protoss play. but that comes with the territory. instead of worrying about it, just focus on macroing out those few more ghosts or handling that one engagement better...because yeah u may have lost to storms but in reality with just a little improvement you can have more ghosts out the next game. critics will say that my macro is irrevelvant i should still be able to play a fair game even without perfect macro. well i would answer then how do you even know whether its a balance issue or not at that point? its hard to tell
the bottom line imo is that sc2 is more of a macro game than BW was. in most games if you have more shit (assuming you arent blind hard countered) you will win with even the most basic micro. so until i can macro evenly with a top master i am just going to continue trying to build more units than the other guy instead of worrying if his HTs are better than my ghosts.
the issue i have with current balance is with the aforementioned terran remax. and this goes back to my point about balance at the top. if we assume that at the top top level of play players have close to perfect and similar macro and that a terran is macroing correctly at the same rate as the z/p and yet they still cant remax as quickly even after an even trade, that is cause for concern for me and is evidence of possible imbalance and this is where i feel most of the late game terran complaints arise.....it almost makes me think that mules on gold bases wasnt actually that bad like we all thought...yes in limited base trade situations it was way overpowered but in more common situations it boosted their late game macro a TON which is really what t need...thats a whole nother slew of consequences for mapmaking etc though so i dont really have any solutions, even if i accept that a patch truly is needed i wouldnt even know what that would entail.
and im gonna say it again. figure out how to kill and/or control those infestors and terran will make leaps and bounds. snipe, seeker missle to scare them away, i dont know but theres gotta be something. even if your whole army gets fungaled if u can keep a banshee in the middle of the map to kill retreating infestors you are not in a terrible position. that either means less festors later or less broods obviously but u can see how important it becomes considering the gas infestors take. infestors used to be even stronger and this was in the era when z considered underpowered. well z evolved to better use them, now its someone elses turn
maybe im ignorant because im not a pro and maybe these ideas have been tried and proven to be fail i dont know. but until someone tells me otherwise im gonna keep stating it
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