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diverzee
Sweden992 Posts
This article however makes me fear that SC2 can never be what BW was. The sheer epicness of BW games. Of troop movement and overall strategy. Of meta game shifting and eras of complete dominance by a player. I am wondering if SC2 can ever be like that. One thing makes me look very positively on the SC2 scene, and that is the big part foreigners play. If the SC2 focus can be moved outside of Korea, to a more accesible intenational arena it will have been worth it. | ||
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mmdmmd
722 Posts
On May 26 2011 09:54 Excludos wrote: Really nice article. It amuses me how much blind hate people really have for this guy, even though, in my opinion, wasn't really that bad. Its not like he was butchering babies. According KT coach, match fixing is worst than raping children. Weird...I know | ||
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Lumi
United States1612 Posts
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futsel
163 Posts
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semantics
10040 Posts
On May 26 2011 10:20 futsel wrote: What's gonna be in 2nd part? His ZvP? Holy wars special savior vs nada go go go! God those matches had so much hype to them esp when nada blew savior up with cannon rush etc hear ppl getting a heart attack in the audience. Savior before bisu did have amazing zvp something crazy like 85% or something in msl and osl | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5568 Posts
Savior. You were such a champ. I remember that game vs Iris on Neo Arakanoid the best (with Klazart commentating ofc). One of the best games ever, imo. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 26 2011 06:41 TurboMaN wrote: No doubt Savior was a very good player, but all the wins vs Top Terrans were long after their Prime. It can't really be compared in my opinion. Not really, it was Savior that created a revolution in Zerg play and rolled Oov and caused his decline much like how Bisu rolled Savior. Nada who peaked after Oov still was also consistently winning grand finals. Both were very much in their prime. You also simply can't say they were past their prime. Then Terrans were smashing Zergs with incredibly high win rates, what's amazing is their win-rate against other Zerg would be less than their loss rate against Savior. | ||
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Cobbbler
United States60 Posts
Not until after reading this article have I ever feared that SC2 would never become what Broodwar is. Many people say Broodwar is more mechanically oriented and SC2 is more strategy oriented, but after reading this, it seems your payoff for being a strategic player in Broodwar is much greater than in SC2. It seems that many of the strategies, or at least their concepts, aren't even possible in SC2. My only hope is that Blizzard can swallow their pride and make SC2 more like Broodwar by the time Legacy of the Void is released. But we all know that will never happen. | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
i'll surely read this when i have the time(got to wake up early tomorrow, sucks), savior was the one that made me a CJ fan and a BW fan for life | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 26 2011 11:04 Cobbbler wrote: I was only into Broodwar casually, and never followed the Korean pro scene. When the SC2 beta was released I dove in head first, and in the process started to brush up on some Broodwar knowledge. I read about Boxer, Nada, iloveoov and the like, but Savior was always brought up as if the writer were pointing out a stain in the history of the game. This article at least helped me understand what he actually was, regardless of what he ended up doing. Not until after reading this article have I ever feared that SC2 would never become what Broodwar is. Many people say Broodwar is more mechanically oriented and SC2 is more strategy oriented, but after reading this, it seems your payoff for being a strategic player in Broodwar is much greater than in SC2. It seems that many of the strategies, or at least their concepts, aren't even possible in SC2. My only hope is that Blizzard can swallow their pride and make SC2 more like Broodwar by the time Legacy of the Void is released. But we all know that will never happen. I had been reading the progress of SC2 since 2008, and originally the overall paradigm they designed SC2 around sounded alright. It wasn't till I actually played the game that I figured out that it felt very wrong. The Broodwar paradigm was based on controlling the map. The SC2 paradigm was based on fluidity and army movement. Note that the main point of RTS is controlling points and dictating the flow of the game. However given peoples distaste for turtle strategies, Browder decided to tip this upside down. Nerfing Tanks, removing Lurkers, Reavers, Defilers, and bringing in Warp Gate, Immortal, Baneling and Marauder that can destroy contains easily and instantly. Unfortunately without the ability to control the map properly nor dictate the flow of the game, you have to move your army around the map in 1 big ball because even having 8 marauders on flight to a drop can mean your main army gets torn to pieces. This means people don't want to attack and what you get is an army balling around for 15 mins gradually increasing in size till 200/200 and then there is a sudden clash and its all over. Many of Saviors tactics heavily involved abusing zergs ability to instantly zone off sections of the map using Lurkers or Defilers. So when a Terran army moves out, he can instantly wedge his lurkers in-between his army and his base. It's a win-win for Savior. The Terrans first reaction is to immediately go back and defend, in which case he will lose his entire army while still losing his base. If he doesn't do that he can attack, but he still loses his base and all reinforcements, after the confusion settles Savior already has ample time to bring out Defilers and defend himself. In SC2 a backstab would often just turn into a base trade. However with the ability to zone off sections of the map, you can do a backstab with most of your army and still have all your bases completely in tact. This is why squad based play is so prevalent in BW, its actually often inefficient to have your whole army together. Logically it doesn't make sense for SC2 to turn out like BW in 10 years time (if the same unit design continues), the paradigm is too different, maybe even if it turns into something great, it won't be anything like BW. | ||
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BlueLagoon
France28 Posts
On May 26 2011 10:05 diverzee wrote: I was really into BW for a few years back around 2004, following the Korean scene and eventually lost some of my interest in it and moved onto other games. Not until 2010 when the SC2 beta openend did I turn my attention towards the SC scene again. Nowadays I pretty much exclusively follow SC2, and I don't know more about current BW than that Flash is top dog. This article however makes me fear that SC2 can never be what BW was. The sheer epicness of BW games. Of troop movement and overall strategy. Of meta game shifting and eras of complete dominance by a player. I am wondering if SC2 can ever be like that. One thing makes me look very positively on the SC2 scene, and that is the big part foreigners play. If the SC2 focus can be moved outside of Korea, to a more accessible international arena it will have been worth it. I'm not sure that SC2 can never be what BW was. Savior epic story happened when SC1 is 8years old (2006). the game had needed 8 years to find its God of Zergs far after its Terran Gods (Nada...etc..). Sc2 is quite young and all strategy and way of play have not been discovered yet. There is so much things to develop and test. Can we imagine that the SC2 future God is not yet known? The difference between SC1 and SC2 is that the world becomes to understand that e Sport exists. We can thank all Korean scene about it because they deserve to work so hard for that... These are the first years of a worldwide e Sport Generation. The best is not behind... I think we're looking for it and Savior story is one of its first Myth. | ||
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FetusFondler
United States246 Posts
I tend to forget that progamers are people also, that the greats like Jaedong and Flash are fallible. Savior more than a great player that had an profound impact for a game I love, but an amazing person, without a doubt. | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
EDIT: oops wrong thread lol, surprised its been a day and no one flamed me for it ;D | ||
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nimbus99
Canada194 Posts
can you post a link or somthing plz! | ||
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triangle
United States3803 Posts
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blankspace
United States292 Posts
When sc2 came out I tried watching it but somehow I just couldn't get into the games. It's possible that I've just outgrown the stuff, idk. Today I watched some sc2 game of boxer vs idra with artosis commentating. And boxer was doing some light harass and artosis was playing it up as if it was "amazing." But when I think back to boxer's epic drops against chojja in the msl, that was truly clutch and amazing. Part of this turned into a rant, but thanks again to ver. The article brought back a lot of good bw memories and I rewatched several vods for the first time in a long while. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On May 26 2011 12:22 nimbus99 wrote: i want the picture of him with a sword for a background! can you post a link or somthing plz! http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4629/savwall1copy.jpg http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5584/thebonjwatb7.jpg http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=90425 | ||
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humanimal
United States151 Posts
Wonder how applicable these tactics will be with sc2? | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
On May 26 2011 13:00 semantics wrote: http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4629/savwall1copy.jpg http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5584/thebonjwatb7.jpg http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=90425 Wow, that's sick. Thanks a bunch! | ||
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futsel
163 Posts
On May 26 2011 11:30 BlueLagoon wrote: Sc2 is quite young and all strategy and way of play have not been discovered yet. There is so much things to develop and test. Can we imagine that the SC2 future God is not yet known? But do you really think that gamestyle of BW is possible with SC2 mechanics? Cause I sadly doubt it. Currently it's build 200 and clash into your opponent. Little groups of 10 roaches for instance don't do that much so u have to max em up. I really would like to see the less army count viable but again, I don't think it's possible with sc2 mechanics. | ||
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