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On May 09 2011 00:12 Varpulis wrote:
Just woke up. Busy weekend. It looks like Beneather's in for a modkill, so i'm taking my vote off of him. I was hoping to pressure him into some activity, but no dice. As soon as I find his suspicious posts (damn the lack of the "all" button) I'll make my case against Cthsazsa.
Check his profile, only 10 posts in this game.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=&t=c&f=-1&u=Beneather&gb=date
On May 09 2011 00:11 sandroba wrote:
Ok, vote for me or Amber[Light]. One of us is definitively scum. Please, make a decent argument. This post doesn´t help in any way.
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Perhaps defending your arguments from day 1 is what he was looking for instead of making such a blatantly passive post which comes across as "I'm not willing to explain my actions".
All you've done today is harass me about explaining myself, and I did. Every time I did. It's not enough for me to answer your questions, but you want me to fabricate a list. Why?
Now that you're finally on the hot seat you don't even want to comment on your day 1 activity and your sudden connection to Chaoser? It was pretty clever asking questions trying to prod other people into acting, but when you actually have to make an argument your logic falls apart.
You seem to expect more from others, but believe that less should be expected of you because you're clearly 'obv town.'
Your play has been scummy since the start. You did just enough pushing during day 1 to keep people off of you and then decided to bandwagon onto a loud voice for day 2. Sorry not just one, but 2 loud voices. Then you aligned yourself with the person you initially were suspicious of, Chaoser. What did he do that impressed you so much? He lynched a townie. He's been called out for his bs analysis and his poor scum hunting, yet you've tied yourself to him for reasons you won't even explain.
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redtooth refuted that post the next page. Amber bragged about another game where he did well, and now proceed to accuse without conviction, but that´s most of the case against him.
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My comentary is in bold:
On May 09 2011 00:07 Amber[LighT] wrote:Read this entire post. You are allowing players to say that because I'm defending myself that I must be scum, but most of the players who voted yesterday for Kurumi wanted him dead because he wasn't defending himself enough. This an asumption at best, a lie at worst This doesn't make sense. The town was doing great, but you haven't listened to me and I really fear that the wrong players are reading my posts, while the ones who should be reading it are ignoring them.. Chaoser has been misleading the town from the moment this game started. I'm tired of being worried that Chaoser will run this town to the ground. Sandroba should be todays lynch target. All of a sudden on Day 2 he appears after a day of inactivity. This is a lie, I've been active in all cicles Let's look at some Sandroba highlights from Day 1: Sandroba questioning Chaoser. What happened here? Didn't have enough to push against him? No, Chaoser was taking the spotlight and I was trying to get a read on him. I've asked your opinion on redtooth also to get a read.+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2011 22:48 sandroba wrote:Ok, so I've caught up right now and something in particular has caught my attention. Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:33 chaoser wrote:On May 04 2011 18:12 Forumite wrote:On May 04 2011 15:09 AirbladeOrange wrote:On May 04 2011 14:09 chaoser wrote:
Ok, so I posted that line just to see how people would respond. You can see that I didn't even post in the actual voting thread and already I think I've got some good reactions. Irish, why such a big response, going so far as to posting a link to another website, even saying that you would dismiss me and "not waste time on trying to convince someone I'm not scum". I didn't even actually vote for you, I posted some bolded words that could have easily been knocked down since there was no analysis behind it, and no logic behind it; it had nothing behind it. Why so serious? Why such a big reaction? Same thing to chaos13.
At the same time, why so much silence on the issue from people who were clearly present? Kitaman? You pop in to say that people shouldn't edit but you don't mention a single thing about Irish, a single thing about me, and a single thing about anything. What up? I think this long of a post is more suspicious than anything irish punk dude said. He does have a few points, people need to make constructive posts, even more so with a 30-player game. Also even this early it´s a good move to call out people on their scum-tells. There's no real such thing as a scum-tell per say. TL doesn't really do the MS "You said good job to medic when he saved someone, you're scum!" kind of deal but there are limitations to what mafia can and can't do. Or at least feel comfortable with doing. If you look at XXXVII, you'll see that mafia found it very hard to make cases against each other and that ended up catching a lot of them. If you look at XXXXVIII, you can see that mafia were decently wishy-washy. By wishy-washy I don't mean they changed their opinions on things, but that they changed them based upon nothing, merely to please the rest of town. In Simple Mafia, Town because Mafia were inactive and allowed town to dominate the discussion. Even so, you'll notice that most of the time it was town arguing against town, using weak arguments and trying to figure out alliances before anyone even flipped. That's bad play since you don't know how mafia will act towards each other. They could bus each other a bit, they could act friendly, or they might not interact at all. The point is that you should focus on a few people and then make judgements about connections AFTER the flip. On day one, conversation generation is the most important thing, even if it IS the 30th game we're discussing about lynching inactives or not. Pressure is also a good conversation generator and I know for a fact that GM's question asking helps too. Mafia wants town to have no direction and I'm sure in this game, where it's filled with mostly newbies, the mafia aren't going to go out of their way to help newbie townies. As such, redtooth get's +townie points in my book. Townies should be sure to ask coaches for help and read over guides conveniently localed here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=215574 That's all fine and all but the thing I find extremelly suspicious about this post is this: Chaoser points out how redtooth post is pro-town and then he proceeds to do exactly what redtooth did. Why are making such a huge effort to appear pro-town chaoser? This post would have exactly the same content without the bolded part. The only thing this part adds is making YOU look more town. Chaoser does circles around Sandrobas question. Sandroba, your question was posted clear as day: + Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 00:34 sandroba wrote:
I can't really tell if I didn't word it correctly or you purposely missinterpreted my question, so here it goes again. What I find suspicious is not the fact that you are trying to help newbies, which is indeed pro-town, but the fact that you pointed it out in your post. That's why I'm not suspicious of redtooth, but of you.
If your intention was really just helping out newbies you had no reason to say: "Look, helping out newbies is pro town okay?"
What you did was copying someone's behaviour which you felt was pro-town and then made sure point it out. Sandroba doesn't want to lynch Chaoser. You reem me out for not taking a stance but you don't seem to have the balls to dig further into his analysis. Then you leave us with this: At this point I was still suspicious of chaoser. He's actions further down the line made me think it was unlikely he was mafia.+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 01:06 sandroba wrote:You keep doing it in all your posts! Either way I don't feel like you are a good day1 lynch, but I'd like your opinion on this wall of nothingness: Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 23:29 Rising_Phoenix wrote:On May 04 2011 22:11 Conversion wrote:
I played in two games, BrownBear's mafia game (if you could even call that playing) where I was town and DocH's newbie mafia where I was mafia. Still pretty bad at this game.
To be honest I really don't have any opinions on anyone atm. I still think there's too many lurkers. The only playstyle I'm somewhat familiar with is Phoenix's since we were scumbuddies in newbie mafia, but he's not posting. Come out, phoenix! Sorry I can't post while I'm asleep >.< Hi buddy! Also what's with all these vets posting huge guides of how to play the game? It's not like we can't read the guides already on this and other sites with useful information. We do need a leader to help lead conversation and we need to be certain that the person isn't mafia. I'm against a "day 1 inactive lynch" Unless we REALLY need to do it. Usually inactives are just disinterested townies, and if we go around lynching random people chances are we'll just hit a townie (simple math says 20% chance of mafia) I also don't see a point in talking about our previous games experience. Really it seems like an easy way to clutter a thread. If you want to see their previous games, go into their post history unless they have a smurf. It seems like we know the people with smurfs so does it really matter? And also isn't it illegal to have two accounts on the site? I feel huge day1 "newbies guides" are kinda useless and suspicious. While we definitely need direction, guides IN THREAD about how to play the game ore mostly filler. Most of what people said have been said are in guides both on this and other sites. I'm not saying it's suspicious but I am saying it's unnecessary and in general a pretty useless post. This post is the scummiest I've seen so far. He shuts down all ideas as useless, states the obvious multiple times and he even feels the need of repeating himself to make his post larger. He closes it in a beautiful whishy-washy fashion. Chaoser suspects Sandroba as being scummy. Sandroba claims that Chaosers analysis is scummy as hell as well. + Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 01:54 sandroba wrote:
Please explain to me, what's your reason to find me scummy. Your reasoning so far is purely OMGUS. On May 05 2011 01:54 sandroba wrote:
Also, shooting down ideas without sugesting something better IS scummy as hell. Sandroba is convinced Kurumi is scum: Yes, I was.+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 04:46 sandroba wrote:
What the hell? Kurumi you have easily earned my vote. You make no sense at all. How exactly you feel you are helping town by posting random crap and generating confusion? I read a bunch of other posts from you in other threads and I wonder how I can understand them so easily, while in this thread not at all. Sandroba asking someone else about how they feel about a player: + Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 05:27 sandroba wrote:
orgolove, and how do you feel about kurumi insane posting and irish_13/Killer_SOS poping out of the blue to defend him for no apparent reason? The Sandroba FoS list. It's funny how you forget about things you do between day 1 and day 2: I still think that Rising_Phoenix and Irish are scum. But they are probably getting modkilled so why would I post analysis on them? I've changed my mind about redtooth, as I've stated before. I was suspicious of KillerSOS, but I thought he was a bad day1 lynch because he hinted blue day1, so it was better to discuss him further down the line.+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 03:41 sandroba wrote:Here is my FOS list: KurumiSo, from what I can gather his plan was to behave like scum, add a lot of cconfusion, spam the thread like a mad man, just to see who would acuse him of being scum. Because, I mean, if you think someone who's being extremtly scummy is scum, then YOU must be scum, right? RIGHT? No. Irish_PunkJumped in to kurumi's defense claiming he's made great posts, but nobody seems to be able to find them. Guess what, they do not exist. He either knows kurumi is town or he knows kurumi is scum. Either way he is scum. Killer_SOSAgrees with Irish_Punk for no reason. Then chainsaw's against chaos13. Has many fillers and one liners with no content. I feel this guy is scum, but he's not a good day1 lynch for obvious reasons. Rising_PhoenixI would like you to look at this post (which I already stated why I find it very scummy): Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 23:29 Rising_Phoenix wrote:
Sorry I can't post while I'm asleep >.< Hi buddy!
Also what's with all these vets posting huge guides of how to play the game? It's not like we can't read the guides already on this and other sites with useful information. We do need a leader to help lead conversation and we need to be certain that the person isn't mafia.
I'm against a "day 1 inactive lynch" Unless we REALLY need to do it. Usually inactives are just disinterested townies, and if we go around lynching random people chances are we'll just hit a townie (simple math says 20% chance of mafia)
I also don't see a point in talking about our previous games experience. Really it seems like an easy way to clutter a thread. If you want to see their previous games, go into their post history unless they have a smurf. It seems like we know the people with smurfs so does it really matter? And also isn't it illegal to have two accounts on the site?
I feel huge day1 "newbies guides" are kinda useless and suspicious. While we definitely need direction, guides IN THREAD about how to play the game ore mostly filler. Most of what people said have been said are in guides both on this and other sites. I'm not saying it's suspicious but I am saying it's unnecessary and in general a pretty useless post. And then compare it to this post: Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 04:50 Rising_Phoenix wrote:
##Unvote
Sorry I was at a horn concert and doing some other stuff as well.
First, looking at this mathematically there are 11 players, 3 of which are mafia. If you randomly choose a person there is a approx. 27% chance of getting it right. However, choosing randomly is a bad idea since you never know if you're lynching an important member (cop or medic).
The cop should look up a random member that isn't himself(obviously). That means there is a 3 in 10 chance of him being right (30%). If he is right, he should be able to hint to everyone else who is mafia. That leaves everyone else voting on another person. If you know who the cop/detective is, that leaves a 3 in 9 chance (33%) of being right. That's from 1/5 to 1/3 probability of being right. I don't know how well this works for day one but numbers are fun =].
----- Break for other half---
Leadership for townies is essential, and right now it looks like Conversion and Freestalker are the two most active in leading conversation and topics. Unless one of them slips up, I'd refrain from killing either of them for now.
Silent members have three possibilities:
1)They're trying to hide
2)They're lazy or disinterested in the game
3)It's a holiday and they're traveling
Going through we have these people being pretty inactive:
-jaminz: a few filler posts, nothing as contribution to the thread, pointing fingers
-aScle: one post?
-Enervate: very little posting as well
These players have said very little or immediately start pointing fingers (Enervate) when they start pointing. However, it doesn't make sense to choose him because he hasn't bothered defending any accusations or contributing anything to support his claim.
aScle and Jaminz have had very little to contribute. Their posts have little to no content and have not been active in general. Also, Jaminz has been very ready to point fingers but has little supporting evidence. I'll vote for him since he's just detracting from town synergy.
So, unless he can defend himself:
##vote Jaminz This post is from newbie mini mafia I, in which he was scum and won a flawless victory. Note the similarities. RedtoothHoly shit, my whole team is exposing themselves like crazy. Time to chainsaw and discredit chaoser! I fail to see how this players you are calling obvtown are obvtown. Your logic is pretty fail: kurumi and irish_punk are so blatantly scum that they MUST NOT be scum so they MUST be town. If you keep following this logic doesn't this make them obvscum all over again? Then he picks Killer_SOS to focus on for day1 lynch. That's pretty dumb if you are town. That's all I have to say for now. Supports a Redtooth lynch. + Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 04:13 sandroba wrote:
@GGQ I would fully suport redtooth lynch. Sandroba thinking like a mafia. He claims that mafia would never want to see Kurumi dead, so why not pursue your list of suspects that you posted over 100 posts prior? Did those FoS-ee's tell you something? Yet, you stated in your previous post that you agree with this. I've explained why I'm not pursuing my previous suspects above. Also, now I have more information, so I can make a better call.+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 23:18 sandroba wrote:
The list argument is pretty dumb. If I were mafia I would NEVER want to see kurumi dead. He was basically doing mafia's job for them. He was spaming the thread, creating a lot of confusion and posting a lot of nonsense. There is no way in hell you could know for sure kurumi was town unless you were mafia. My suspicions are on the people who came to his defensess for no reason, because he was "obvtown". Seriously, you guys must be on a whole other level, because calling kurumi obvtown is like calling a rape a beautiful act between two people in love. Give me a break. Vote for Kurumi, say 2 other players are scum. Again, you agreed with this statement on your post.+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 23:20 sandroba wrote:
And yes, I'm saying Irish and Redtooth are scum. Doesn't like Jackals posts and calls him out as obv-town. Has anyone else called any other players out for being a town oriented role so far? Coincidence that Jackal also died the following night? + Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 23:45 sandroba wrote:
What a nice argument. Your last follow up question is a very logical leap (not). You must be obvtown as well, because it turns out people that make no sense flip green. Now Sandroba all of a sudden supports REDTOOTH of all players coincidentally after Kurumi flips green. He suspects Irish of being mafia but doesn't act. I've already explained why I feel redtooth is not likely to be mafia at this point. Pursuing Irish when he's about to be modkilled is dumb. + Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 02:43 sandroba wrote:
I must admit I raged a bit when I saw your post because of your patronizing behaviour. While I do not agree with some of your points (first line should be implicit imo, not sure about restriction on quotes), I'm willing to give this a try and see how this goes, because I really like the cosponsor idea, as it would make it evident people hoping on bullshit analysis. You are putting a huge effort into organazing things, and I find it very unlikely you would be doing this if you were mafia. I still strongly believe (and will be held acountable) irish is mafia.
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On May 08 2011 14:19 DropBear wrote:
On redtooth
I PM'd Ver for help last night regarding redtooth. Part of this was because I couldn't find his history, which Ver provided.
I was concerned that redtooth was derailing town. The question Ver posed to me was this:
Is what redtooth is doing what only a mafia would do? Is there a possibility he is a misguided townie? If he was mafia, why would he draw so much attention to himself for no reason?
My answer is this: on looking back the thread is difficult to read with accusations and massive posts everywhere. It is actually reasonably easy to blend in. I have contributed to this. redtooth claimed to try and drag people back on track and clean things up. Mafia wouldn't want this. redtooth if you are town and were trying to help, I am extremely annoyed with the method you chose to do it. I am however concerned about how quickly 4 votes accumulated on you with little opposition.
Ver also suggested I keep to only one target instead of attacking 7 at once, which on second thoughts makes sense.
In the future, please refrain from quoting / paraphrasing coaches, or directly bringing what they tell you into the thread. We don't want arguments centered around "This is what Awesome Coach told me to do, so it must be correct!"
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@Forumite Redtooth posted his opinion on the analysis and even agreed with some points. You are entitled to your own opinion about it.
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I would like to state that my quote from ver in my analysis is from "How to Improve: Mafia XXX Analysis" and I'm not quoting nor paraphrasing any messages that we might or might not have exchanged.
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On Amber[Light]
I do not think he is mafia at all. Hopefully I can show you why.
He has 4 posts before the game begins and 11 posts since. He has shown low levels of activity as town before, let me refer you to Ver's analysis of Mafia XXX as a point of reference. In this game he posted rarely as a blue but still tried to help.
+ Show Spoiler [His first major post] +On May 05 2011 06:17 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:09 AirbladeOrange wrote:On May 04 2011 14:09 chaoser wrote:
Ok, so I posted that line just to see how people would respond. You can see that I didn't even post in the actual voting thread and already I think I've got some good reactions. Irish, why such a big response, going so far as to posting a link to another website, even saying that you would dismiss me and "not waste time on trying to convince someone I'm not scum". I didn't even actually vote for you, I posted some bolded words that could have easily been knocked down since there was no analysis behind it, and no logic behind it; it had nothing behind it. Why so serious? Why such a big reaction? Same thing to chaos13.
At the same time, why so much silence on the issue from people who were clearly present? Kitaman? You pop in to say that people shouldn't edit but you don't mention a single thing about Irish, a single thing about me, and a single thing about anything. What up? I think this long of a post is more suspicious than anything irish punk dude said. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:09 AirbladeOrange wrote:On May 05 2011 00:56 Kurumi wrote:
Drop Chaoser discussion as scum.
He will be probably shot this night because he is good at Mafia and is staying really pro-town.
It is good to see some lurkers waking up! I don't like this post. I never like it when a townie tries to end discussion. The town should always encourage discussion. However, Chaoser does not seem to support Kurumi at all. It seems like Kurumi could be trying to defend his mafia buddy Chaoser but Chaoser is being very serious about not defending Kurumi at all. Maybe Kurumi just made a bad mistake that Chaoser is trying to distance himself from it in order to not be involved if Kurumi turns out to be mafia. Chaoser even did a little investigation on Kurumi's other TL posts which is very interesting. Chaoser is a good player which nobody should forget. I believe he has the potential to be a great townie or a great mafia player. Eternalmisfit did a good analysis of Kurumi as well. I think the worst part about him is his posting method. What's up with that? At least if we lynch him and he flips town, we won't have to attempt to read those type of posts anymore. I agree with your overall assessment of Kurumi and I see him at least as of right now being most likely to be mafia. This is my third mafia game. I played haunted mafia a while ago and I had no idea what was going on the entire game. Then I just played Brown Bear's mafia game in which I was a mafia goon. DropBear, Coagulation, and GMarshal were all on my team. I'm trying to understand your posts because you seem to do a little flip flopping. You seem nervous to challenge anything Chaoser has said because of his "vet" status. You are very suspicious of Chaoser on page 15 [see initial quote], but now all of a sudden Chaoser decided to push against Kurumi just enough for you to resist attacking him [see 2nd quote]. I think this might have been a TL mafia first to create a campaign against a player because of posting habits on other parts of the forum. I'd like to believe that people are capable of wearing many hats. One of those hats is used in mafia, while the others are used elsewhere, when appropriate. From a first look I would say Chaoser wants to come in as a town leader but I don't really agree with the methods he used, though they are a bit convincing. Back to you Airblade... My question is do you think creating a chaoser vs/with kurumi vision is going to get us somewhere? You say either they could be together or they could be against each other, but you don't really elaborate on how to figure this out. Also are we going to take the route of weeding out bad/inactive townies or rely on posting for the first lynch? We need to be really careful about lynching habits. I remember during the very first mafia games we would go for inactives and those were actually the players with blue roles. This is a problem though as it's not really the towns fault, but instead the people who have these blue roles that need to keep active. Lynching a blue is more painful to watch than anything else in mafia. Do we have an updated list of the inactive players? I saw one a few pages back and I'll bump it in my next post.... If you're new please contribute, ask questions, and start being critical!
This is all very relevant. AO has made strange posts, contradicting himself regarding chaoser. He defends Kurumi on his posting outside this forum. This all seems to me to be helping things.
+ Show Spoiler [Regarding lynching inactives] +On May 05 2011 06:41 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 06:30 Eternalmisfit wrote:Also are we going to take the route of weeding out bad/inactive townies or rely on posting for the first lynch? We need to be really careful about lynching habits. I remember during the very first mafia games we would go for inactives and those were actually the players with blue roles. This is a problem though as it's not really the towns fault, but instead the people who have these blue roles that need to keep active. Lynching a blue is more painful to watch than anything else in mafia. As I posted earlier, I am not too keen on lynching a lurker/inactive on the first day in a 30 man setup as a blue kill would hurt us quite a bit. However, if we have someone in the game who has not posted/voted till somewhat close to the deadline and the town cannot reach a consensus on a mafia lynch, I would recommend lynching the inactive person since he was going to be mod-killed anyways. That is my 2 cents on the issue but it would nice to hear thoughts from more experienced players about it. Depends on the situation. Are we going to be sure that the person we're sparing isn't red anyway? Why were we even going to lynch him? I believe that the inactive player should be disregarded as their punishment will be coming, and we need to use the lynches to lynch mafia, not avoid getting duplicate mod kills with potential mis-lynches. Sacrificing 1 inactive player to hit [potentially] 0 mafia is bad. Ignoring 1 inactive player to hit [potentially] 1 mafia is a pretty good deal.
These are all arguments which have been trumpeted in the last few pages regarding Beneather and Irish_Punk by many people, including myself. He brought them up on day 1 and got no credit for it.
+ Show Spoiler [Large post from Amber] +On May 06 2011 07:30 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 06:51 redtooth wrote:On May 06 2011 06:33 Forumite wrote:On May 06 2011 06:17 redtooth wrote:On May 06 2011 05:56 Forumite wrote:
You said you were checking Kurumi, and I assumed pissing off Kurumi and Irish refered to calling them out on their scummy behavior. AKA tunneling. See scumtells from everything I say don't you. Well whatever, I'll play along for now - I said that the act of pissing off Kurumi and Irish would have made me seem protown since they were getting bandwagoned hard and I would have fit right in with the rest of you all. Instead I kicked the beehive and now (somehow) stand accused of pandering them. I did check out Kurumi. Less confident that he's town but he's still leaning town nonetheless.
On May 06 2011 05:52 Mig wrote:
Red I understand it can be important to find townies but we have to lynch someone within the next few hours. So who are you going to vote for and why? We'll see. I don't like realvoting (as opposed to baitvoting) early, especially if I'll probably be around for the deadline and can actually make a difference in the count. If voting was to end 5 minutes from now, I'd put it on Chaoser just out of protest. If I had to be the tiebreaker between Kurumi and KillerSOS, I'd probably put it on Killer. If I had to be the tiebreaker between Kurumi and Irish, I'd probably put it on Chaoser simply because I don't want to be anywhere near those ridiculous lynches. Is it tunneling if you admit that I´m right, that calling Irish and Kurumi scum would be protown right now? No it is tunneling when you continually misinterpreting what I said instead of objectively reading it and realizing that it is referring to an era long past. Where do I say you're right? On May 06 2011 06:24 Cthsazsa wrote:On May 06 2011 05:18 redtooth wrote:
Ok I'm catching up atm. Chaoser I'll address you soon enough. But for now, I have no idea wtf Kurumi is doing and will have to re-evaluate. I'm still waiting for you to address him. You said in a post after this^ that he's scummy, but you didn't explain how. Instead you made an indepth post defending Irish and Kurumi. I've written a novel on it. It's on the NYTimes bestsellers list. On May 06 2011 06:30 AirbladeOrange wrote:
Redtooth, in your last post you said Irish AND Kurumi are town but provided no good reason for it. I want to know why you feel this way.
...
Now you are saying that Kumumi is leaning a little less town than before. Why? What changed?
I'm even getting uneasy with you defending me as being "to a lesser extent" town. Kurumi I think was the one who tried to get people on my case but he did not have any good analysis. If anyone else has issues with my play let me know up front what the problem is. I don't really think I'm being too defensive, but I'm keeping an eye on people who tried to continue that bandwagon.
I'm thinking it is likely that you, Irish, and Kurumi are all mafia. Maybe you are getting desperate because of the poor play of your two teammates and are trying to help them without seeming overly obvious while at the same time trying to shift attention to KillerSoS. I've provided plenty of reason for it. Less confident about Kurumi but still think he leans town nonetheless. The reason is that I thought he burned out after being pressed so hard and that fit his persona of being a slightly immature ADD townie. Instead he came back and spammed with a vengeance. Still fits his persona but a little less so. And you may be "to a lesser extent town" but you're town nonetheless. What are you complaining about? On May 06 2011 06:44 Forumite wrote:On May 06 2011 06:33 redtooth wrote:
I am busy today. We will probably end up lynching Kurumi. I was going to ask whether you would want to request a Day Vigi hit on Irish since you're so confident (70% is absolutely ridiculous IMO but you might just like higher numbers) but it's too late and our response would take too long. Worst case scenario, we fumble the lynch and do have a double-townkill round. Wouldn´t wasting a day-vigilante be a bit of a waste? It's not a waste if it's a 70% chance of scumhit. If I was the one pushing it, I'd take those odds anyday. If it really was 70%, the net expected results aren't too bad either: - 70% chance of occurring - We hit Irish, he flips red, we catch a scum we wouldn't have caught otherwise. Net of +1 at the cost of a Day Vigi shot. - 30% chance of occurring - We hit Irish, he flips green, we stop the bandwagon on Kurumi and save a townie. Net of 0 at the cost of a Day Vigi shot. I'm pretty sure we should save the day vig ability to find the GF or a roleblocker. I was entering the game assuming that the day vig was the role block counter anyway. I don't know if I want to bite on your analysis of Chaoser Redtooth, but I'm a bit weary of someone that comes in swinging on the first day with this much information about a certain player. Chaoser has really been digging deep into Kurumi and hasn't been letting up against other players. I almost want to see Kurumi flip to see how much we can trust his analysis. For this reason I want to see how well your analysis has been leading us. If he flips red then I think it would be safe to assume that Irish Punk is red, Chaoser is green, and opponents of his analysis should be considered for lynches. If he flips green then I'd like to see some better analysis from Chaoser during day 2. It's going to really impact this game if we listen to someone who mislynches over and over again. Also if Kurumi flips green this doesn't confirm anybody. Don't think joining a bandwagon is going to keep you in the background if you're lurking. Day 1 lynches are without a doubt the toughest to call, but I am going to vote for Kurumi tonight. I feel like he's more of a solid lynch candidate and his flip will give us more information about Irish punk. Also don't let the numbers dictate who is scum and who is pro town. I would like to remind the younger players that some of us have jobs and sleep at normal times. I play TL mafia from 5:30 - 11:30 my time and I have to catch up from a lot of pages of content/spam, even when I can read while at work. My posting habits have not changed during this game. If you didn't notice my posts, you have easy access to them via my profile. My analysis compounds over the days and I will be focusing on certain players once more information is obtained.
This is the only post I don't understand. He seems to be advocating a lynch for information. Do however note how he has responded to a post about blues.
On May 08 2011 00:21 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 13:51 chaoser wrote:
Btw, though redtooth and I are butting heads, I really don't think he's mafia. His posts come off as strong and has a lot of conviction behind it. Mafia are probably sitting back and chilling out and posting without much content. Amber has been such a person. He spent his biggest post quoting previous games and his reasoning for voting Kurumi is basically "Everyone else was doing it, so I did". I'll write a bigger post about it tomorrow. I didn't realize quoting old games was any less important than quoting peoples posts in non-mafia threads on TL.
This is in fact an extremely relevant point. One of the initial arguments against Kurumi was the difference between how he posted in the sc2 forum and here. Old Mafia game history is conversely extremely relevant.
On May 06 2011 07:42 Amber[LighT] wrote:
##Vote: Kurumi
This vote immediately follows.
+ Show Spoiler [Defence of himself] +On May 08 2011 00:27 Amber[LighT] wrote:Just putting these here before Chaoser goes on his anti-Amber campaign. I would like to stress that Chaoser is tunneling me. Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:30 Amber[LighT] wrote:On May 06 2011 06:51 redtooth wrote:On May 06 2011 06:33 Forumite wrote:On May 06 2011 06:17 redtooth wrote:On May 06 2011 05:56 Forumite wrote:
You said you were checking Kurumi, and I assumed pissing off Kurumi and Irish refered to calling them out on their scummy behavior. AKA tunneling. See scumtells from everything I say don't you. Well whatever, I'll play along for now - I said that the act of pissing off Kurumi and Irish would have made me seem protown since they were getting bandwagoned hard and I would have fit right in with the rest of you all. Instead I kicked the beehive and now (somehow) stand accused of pandering them. I did check out Kurumi. Less confident that he's town but he's still leaning town nonetheless.
On May 06 2011 05:52 Mig wrote:
Red I understand it can be important to find townies but we have to lynch someone within the next few hours. So who are you going to vote for and why? We'll see. I don't like realvoting (as opposed to baitvoting) early, especially if I'll probably be around for the deadline and can actually make a difference in the count. If voting was to end 5 minutes from now, I'd put it on Chaoser just out of protest. If I had to be the tiebreaker between Kurumi and KillerSOS, I'd probably put it on Killer. If I had to be the tiebreaker between Kurumi and Irish, I'd probably put it on Chaoser simply because I don't want to be anywhere near those ridiculous lynches. Is it tunneling if you admit that I´m right, that calling Irish and Kurumi scum would be protown right now? No it is tunneling when you continually misinterpreting what I said instead of objectively reading it and realizing that it is referring to an era long past. Where do I say you're right? On May 06 2011 06:24 Cthsazsa wrote:On May 06 2011 05:18 redtooth wrote:
Ok I'm catching up atm. Chaoser I'll address you soon enough. But for now, I have no idea wtf Kurumi is doing and will have to re-evaluate. I'm still waiting for you to address him. You said in a post after this^ that he's scummy, but you didn't explain how. Instead you made an indepth post defending Irish and Kurumi. I've written a novel on it. It's on the NYTimes bestsellers list. On May 06 2011 06:30 AirbladeOrange wrote:
Redtooth, in your last post you said Irish AND Kurumi are town but provided no good reason for it. I want to know why you feel this way.
...
Now you are saying that Kumumi is leaning a little less town than before. Why? What changed?
I'm even getting uneasy with you defending me as being "to a lesser extent" town. Kurumi I think was the one who tried to get people on my case but he did not have any good analysis. If anyone else has issues with my play let me know up front what the problem is. I don't really think I'm being too defensive, but I'm keeping an eye on people who tried to continue that bandwagon.
I'm thinking it is likely that you, Irish, and Kurumi are all mafia. Maybe you are getting desperate because of the poor play of your two teammates and are trying to help them without seeming overly obvious while at the same time trying to shift attention to KillerSoS. I've provided plenty of reason for it. Less confident about Kurumi but still think he leans town nonetheless. The reason is that I thought he burned out after being pressed so hard and that fit his persona of being a slightly immature ADD townie. Instead he came back and spammed with a vengeance. Still fits his persona but a little less so. And you may be "to a lesser extent town" but you're town nonetheless. What are you complaining about? On May 06 2011 06:44 Forumite wrote:On May 06 2011 06:33 redtooth wrote:
I am busy today. We will probably end up lynching Kurumi. I was going to ask whether you would want to request a Day Vigi hit on Irish since you're so confident (70% is absolutely ridiculous IMO but you might just like higher numbers) but it's too late and our response would take too long. Worst case scenario, we fumble the lynch and do have a double-townkill round. Wouldn´t wasting a day-vigilante be a bit of a waste? It's not a waste if it's a 70% chance of scumhit. If I was the one pushing it, I'd take those odds anyday. If it really was 70%, the net expected results aren't too bad either: - 70% chance of occurring - We hit Irish, he flips red, we catch a scum we wouldn't have caught otherwise. Net of +1 at the cost of a Day Vigi shot. - 30% chance of occurring - We hit Irish, he flips green, we stop the bandwagon on Kurumi and save a townie. Net of 0 at the cost of a Day Vigi shot. I'm pretty sure we should save the day vig ability to find the GF or a roleblocker. I was entering the game assuming that the day vig was the role block counter anyway. I don't know if I want to bite on your analysis of Chaoser Redtooth, but I'm a bit weary of someone that comes in swinging on the first day with this much information about a certain player. Chaoser has really been digging deep into Kurumi and hasn't been letting up against other players. I almost want to see Kurumi flip to see how much we can trust his analysis. For this reason I want to see how well your analysis has been leading us.
If he flips red then I think it would be safe to assume that Irish Punk is red, Chaoser is green, and opponents of his analysis should be considered for lynches.
If he flips green then I'd like to see some better analysis from Chaoser during day 2. It's going to really impact this game if we listen to someone who mislynches over and over again. Also if Kurumi flips green this doesn't confirm anybody. Don't think joining a bandwagon is going to keep you in the background if you're lurking.Day 1 lynches are without a doubt the toughest to call, but I am going to vote for Kurumi tonight. I feel like he's more of a solid lynch candidate and his flip will give us more information about Irish punk. Also don't let the numbers dictate who is scum and who is pro town. I would like to remind the younger players that some of us have jobs and sleep at normal times. I play TL mafia from 5:30 - 11:30 my time and I have to catch up from a lot of pages of content/spam, even when I can read while at work. My posting habits have not changed during this game. If you didn't notice my posts, you have easy access to them via my profile. My analysis compounds over the days and I will be focusing on certain players once more information is obtained. And after Redtooth posted in response to this post I gave a little clarification about my justification for lynching Kurumi. I was not just voting for kurumi because everybody else was doing it. This is probably going to be the last time I correct peoples ignorance. Please stop tunneling Chaoser. I'm not trying to point my FoS onto you, yet. Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:43 Amber[LighT] wrote:On May 06 2011 07:37 redtooth wrote:On May 06 2011 07:30 Amber[LighT] wrote:
If he flips red then I think it would be safe to assume that Irish Punk is red, Chaoser is green, and opponents of his analysis should be considered for lynches.
If he flips green then I'd like to see some better analysis from Chaoser during day 2. It's going to really impact this game if we listen to someone who mislynches over and over again. Also if Kurumi flips green this doesn't confirm anybody. Don't think joining a bandwagon is going to keep you in the background if you're lurking. I'm fine with that. Sort of surprised that you actually think Kurumi is scummy though. Well, once again, I doubt we'll be shifting votes anytime soon so he's pretty much a lock for the lynch. Off to study, bbl. Voting Chaoser in case I miss the deadline. He's using a lot of diversion tactics and getting really defensive to the point where he was analyzing players that were either targeting him or easy pins for inactivity. It seems like it's more pseudo-analysis than actual content. You know, posting just to post.
I'd like to point out that before this post, chaoser mentions Amber on several occasions as someone who he suspects before Amber defends himself against tunneling. Sandroba's argument on the previous page about Amber defending himself pre-emptively due to his own guilt is completely incorrect. Note that chaoser has pushed this list of vets who are posting rarely and who vote for Kurumi. Orgolove and GGQ are on this list too, why not them? All the attributes that chaoser claims are scummy are present in orgolove and Chaoser not only ignores them, he actively tries to get others to ignore them too. Chaoser IS tunneling Amber. Amber has used this trumpeting of his own skill level as an attempt to not get lynched. If defending yourself was scummy, then everyone would be mafia.
Posts of the dead are pointed out here. This is contribution.
+ Show Spoiler [Last major post] +On May 08 2011 01:03 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 00:40 sandroba wrote:
Amber, what's your opinion on the redtooth situation? His analysis mirrors mine in most cases. I would trust him as a town leader more than Chaoser, and I'll stand by that. Though I will say I don't agree with his posting plan. The idea is genuinely good with intention, but it will choke the town over the next few days. I can't stand by that plan. We share the same frustrations too. As I'm reading over his most recent posts he's also pretty upset with Chaoser and if I'm not reading into his posts too seriously he is suspecting him more than me. I don't know if Chaoser is just trolling vets or is just trying to get us more riled up but it's causing more and more people to consider him as a lynch target. I think this post has a lot of weight to it: Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:33 redtooth wrote:On May 07 2011 04:26 chaoser wrote:
You guys do realize that talking about whether we should follow redtooth's strict ass guidelines just allows for scum to seem like they're contributing but not really right? I appreciate the sentiment redtooth but all it does is let people post a whole lot of nothing. That's suspicious yo. Analyzing any alignment right now is a waste of breathe. If anything, it gives scum an opportunity to manipulate lynches to make innocents look scummy. For example: Redtooth: Node is scummy! I'm going to lynch him asap! Node: Stfu no I'm not! Redtooth has been killed. He flipped green.Town: Kill Node! He had the most reason to kill redtooth! WIFOM ensues, followed shortly by chaos then scumwin.There is literally nothing that's needs to happen tonight that we can't do tomorrow morning with more information. That is why I'm not posting an argument against you right now because if I die or if you die then it is a waste of my breath. Alternatively, we can debate standards to set for town posting that will benefit us when day does come around so that town can hit the ground running. Though it makes sense I think strategically his posts would have been irrelevent unless mafia chose to take out Redtooth. It would have made him look incredibly scummy. Think about it from another perspective. If you were mafia and you saw Redtooth accuse Chaoser and chaoser was red, would you still gun down Redtooth to "confirm" him using the WIFOM argument? I think posts at night are more catch 22 than anything else [damned if you do; damned if you don't].
This is all very relevant. Amber is contributing just as much as redtooth, he's just not been as prominent in the thread nor has he tried to force everyone to act the same way.
CONCLUSION
Is Amber attempting to contribute? Yes. Pushing mafia objectives? No. Being tunneled by chaoser? Yes. I am getting a massive blue read out of Amber. He is definitely contributing but isn't trying to stand out.
Don't vote to lynch Amber[Light]. Vote orgolove instead for the reasons I have already given.
Orgolove is choice number 1. Sandroba is choice number 2. After his presence on the voting list for Kurumi, he joins the wagon I started on redtooth. Sandroba has now joined the wagon on Amber out of the three people up for debate. If noone is willing to vote orgolove I will switch to sandroba. Chaoser is choice number 3.
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On May 09 2011 00:53 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 14:19 DropBear wrote:
On redtooth
I PM'd Ver for help last night regarding redtooth. Part of this was because I couldn't find his history, which Ver provided.
I was concerned that redtooth was derailing town. The question Ver posed to me was this:
Is what redtooth is doing what only a mafia would do? Is there a possibility he is a misguided townie? If he was mafia, why would he draw so much attention to himself for no reason?
My answer is this: on looking back the thread is difficult to read with accusations and massive posts everywhere. It is actually reasonably easy to blend in. I have contributed to this. redtooth claimed to try and drag people back on track and clean things up. Mafia wouldn't want this. redtooth if you are town and were trying to help, I am extremely annoyed with the method you chose to do it. I am however concerned about how quickly 4 votes accumulated on you with little opposition.
Ver also suggested I keep to only one target instead of attacking 7 at once, which on second thoughts makes sense.
In the future, please refrain from quoting / paraphrasing coaches, or directly bringing what they tell you into the thread. We don't want arguments centered around "This is what Awesome Coach told me to do, so it must be correct!"
Ok sorry 
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On May 09 2011 00:57 sandroba wrote:
I would like to state that my quote from ver in my analysis is from "How to Improve: Mafia XXX Analysis" and I'm not quoting nor paraphrasing any messages that we might or might not have exchanged.
Yeah, that's okay. I realized that yours came from the guide. Just don't bring the PMs into the game and everything is fine. 
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@Dropbear Oh my god. What Amber is doing is pretending to be contributing. Go read his posts and you will see there's no pointing to scum at all in any of them.
About the tunnelling of chaoser: Many of the previous mentions were not a FoS and were present along with several other members who were also inactive. The first time chaoser FoSed Amber was in the post I quoted in my analysis. This is NOT tunneling.
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On May 09 2011 01:06 sandroba wrote:
@Dropbear Oh my god. What Amber is doing is pretending to be contributing. Go read his posts and you will see there's no pointing to scum at all in any of them.
About the tunnelling of chaoser: Many of the previous mentions were not a FoS and were present along with several other members who were also inactive. The first time chaoser FoSed Amber was in the post I quoted in my analysis. This is NOT tunneling.
He hasn't pointed at scum. So what? This is precisely what he does done in the past in a blue role.
Why then, has chaoser selected Amber and not orgolove or GGQ?
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@DropBear Do you really think that if he was blue he would have posted what a great scumhunter he was on past games?
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Because those guys MIGHT be scum. Amber[Light] is scum for sure.
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On May 09 2011 01:15 sandroba wrote:
@DropBear Do you really think that if he was blue he would have posted what a great scumhunter he was on past games?
If you are blue, you try to help but hide. Now that he has been called out, he is defending himself. He doesn't want to get lynched. An argument that he is scum because he talks himself up is completely irrelevant.
I have switched my vote to you. You have been present on every major bandwagon so far.
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It is quite surprising that Chaoser keeps on coming in defense of Sandroba (when I was suspicious of Sandroba) and Sandroba is not defending Chaoser (when redtooth accused).
They have never posted any evidence that they know the other is pro-town but it always seems that they are too confident that the other one is on the same alignment as them.
@Sandroba
Why do you think Chaoser is so pro-town that you are vehemently defending him?
I mean when redtooth accuses Chaoser, you ask him to have a vote off between yourself and Amber and NOT Chaoser and Amber. It seems like you are more confident that Chaoser is town than yourself being town? Where does confidence come from?
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On May 09 2011 01:20 Eternalmisfit wrote:
It is quite surprising that Chaoser keeps on coming in defense of Sandroba (when I was suspicious of Sandroba) and Sandroba is not defending Chaoser
I meant Sandroba is now defending Chaoser
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It's not WHAT he has done. Surely defending yourself is not enough to call anyone scum. It's HOW and under what circumstances he has done it. Also, that's only one point on a plethora of arguments I've made that makes him scum. Go read my analysis carefully.
There's been only one bandwagon so far and that was kurumi's. Yes, I thought he was scum and I've stated my reasons why then. I think I was the first to vote for him. At one point I thought Redtooth was scum and I also have stated my reasons. Does that make me scum? No, it does not.
Look at the arguments Amber has made for calling me scum and look at my commentary on my previous post. Amber himself does not agree with them.
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EPT
