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On January 13 2011 22:36 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 20:42 Baddieko wrote:
I'm sure why bisu opened this build. The cross positions, bridges and small entrance to nat. He used the most direct build to late game pvp, didnt expect stork as macro player to play aggressive. its the size of the map, if you watch the game youll see bisu dodging the obs path with his dt. That would normally allow or the dt timing to catch stork off guard, because with an observer on the other corner of the map (longest possible distance) bisu could do a ton of damage, the key to this game is that stork both noticed a dt with his dragoon and that he counted the goons guarding bisu's base, and thus built a second obs and made a wall with his units instead of immediately getting a shuttle and reaver. At that point bisu needed to buy time because storks build (since it wasnt fast tech) had him at 4 gates to 2 (and actually 3 to 1) at one point, so he moved the shuttle out hoping to get some time. What then happened was stork saw the shuttle move out and contrary to popular belief was trying to catch the shuttle (watch where his goons go) not go all in or timing attack and secure his win, when the shuttle wasnt there (bisu moves it because he sees that stork saw his shuttle because of goon movement) he realizes his shuttle either a, went the long way around to slip past goons or b, is ridiculously out of position dodging his goons, both of which tell him that the time to attack is now. Stork was not really aggressive he just played out his build order advantage correctly, before bisu had the gates to match stork.
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On January 13 2011 22:38 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:36 gk_ender wrote:On January 13 2011 20:42 Baddieko wrote:
I'm sure why bisu opened this build. The cross positions, bridges and small entrance to nat. He used the most direct build to late game pvp, didnt expect stork as macro player to play aggressive. its the size of the map, if you watch the game youll see bisu dodging the obs path with his dt. That would normally allow or the dt timing to catch stork off guard, because with an observer on the other corner of the map (longest possible distance) bisu could do a ton of damage, the key to this game is that stork both noticed a dt with his dragoon and that he counted the goons guarding bisu's base, and thus built a second obs and made a wall with his units instead of immediately getting a shuttle and reaver. At that point bisu needed to buy time because storks build (since it wasnt fast tech) had him at 4 gates to 2 (and actually 3 to 1) at one point, so he moved the shuttle out hoping to get some time. What then happened was stork saw the shuttle move out and contrary to popular belief was trying to catch the shuttle (watch where his goons go) not go all in or timing attack and secure his win, when the shuttle wasnt there (bisu moves it because he sees that stork saw his shuttle because of goon movement) he realizes his shuttle either a, went the long way around to slip past goons or b, is ridiculously out of position dodging his goons, both of which tell him that the time to attack is now. Stork was not really aggressive he just played out his build order advantage correctly, before bisu had the gates to match stork.
hit quote instead of edit lol
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On January 13 2011 22:36 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 20:42 Baddieko wrote:
I'm sure why bisu opened this build. The cross positions, bridges and small entrance to nat. He used the most direct build to late game pvp, didnt expect stork as macro player to play aggressive. its the size of the map, if you watch the game youll see bisu dodging the obs path with his dt. That would normally allow or the dt timing to catch stork off guard, because with an observer on the other corner of the map (longest possible distance) bisu could do a ton of damage, the key to this game is that stork both noticed a dt with his dragoon and that he counted the goons guarding bisu's base, and thus built a second obs and made a wall with his units instead of immediately getting a shuttle and reaver. At that point bisu needed to buy time because storks build (since it wasnt fast tech) had him at 4 gates to 2 (and actually 3 to 1) at one point, so he moved the shuttle out hoping to get some time. What then happened was stork saw the shuttle move out and contrary to popular belief was trying to catch the shuttle (watch where his goons go) and secure his win, when the shuttle wasnt there (bisu moves it because he sees that stork saw his shuttle because of goon movement) he realizes his shuttle either a, went the long way around to slip past goons or b, is ridiculously out of position dodging his goons, both of which tell him that the time to attack is now. Stork was not really aggressive he just played out his build order advantage correctly, before bisu had the gates to match stork.
yeah the 2nd obs made the win easy. Stork is really detailed in starcraft by knowing bisu's resource count, i didnt see him get the 2nd obs after 1st obs in pvp before.
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United States5582 Posts
On January 13 2011 21:48 weiliem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 20:39 Spica wrote:On January 13 2011 20:31 weiliem wrote:
i like how the SKT fans claiming that its an all in... and when bisu does that, its a perfect timing push... lol... everybody will cut probes or scvs for timing pushes. if opponent expands and u dont expand but mass and army for a timing push, thats called all in?? i really cant understand those skt fans, too much fan boyism That's totally uncalled for. Looks like you're the one with too much fanboyism for your own team, pointing out SKT fans from the rest. Guess team tags and a chance to criticize others is all you look for in comments. So i am suppose to state bisu fans instead of SKT fans? sry then... cause most of the comments that points out about all-in are with the SKT logo
You don't have to point out any fans of [insert whatever here]. Looking down on other people is wrong; they most likely made a genuine mistake. It's just a coincidence that most people who thought Bisu did an all-in have the SKT logo, whether they were upset over Bisu's loss or not.
Even though SKT and KT fans normally "dislike" each other, that's a bit too harsh to call SKT fans wrong because they were blinded by fanboyism, when we could say the same about KT fans in any other situation where they make a mistake, or heck, any other team's fans.
So let's avoid the team/fan bashing, okay? Save that stuff when SKT faces off against KT next time.
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Song Byung Goo fighting!! :D
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It makes me so ill inside thinking of the number of times there have been Zerg heavy playoff pools and Bisu has ALWAYS been drawn against T/P. I mean if he has to meet Stork in the Ro4 and loses then fine, at least we get a Bo5 and he can shown he is capable of making a semi-final again. To go out in the Ro16 though vs. one of the two players in the field who could beat him just hurts though 
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On January 13 2011 21:30 Holgerius wrote:
He said he thinks the style of play is very attractive; have you ever heard anyone call Flash's style attractive? I haven't, because it's totally fucking boring.
You can't really think this, can you? I can understand it from a 7-post noobie but an ~8700 post forum veteran with a KT icon? What the fuck?
----
Flash is easily the most dynamic and interesting terran player to watch. He varies his builds almost every game, and has an absolutely ridiculous win-rate doing it. He wins using every strategy you can possibly think of to win with, and a lot you can't. He'll bunker rush a 12 nexus after scouting it late, he'll use dropships and utterly embarrass Best in his strongest matchup on his favorite map; TvZ he has unorthodox infantry timings vs zerg to deny their third that require impeccable micro vs lings and mutas to not get raped (and thus few other terran players really even attempt -- and honestly he occasionally shouldn't, since it occasionally loses him an OSL finals), and don't even get me started on how his marines often seem to be invincible to lurkers; his TvT at his worst involves throwing away countless units and still making a game of it with impeccable macro, and at his best is a fucking vice closing on your throat one expansion at a time. His defense is incredible, his attacks are at insane timings, his control is often so astonishingly good that it's ridiculous. Any player who is capable of beating him is a testament to countless hours of hard work, and these days it's hard to call most of flash's rare losses anything but flukes.
And I'm not even a flash fanboy: you have to give credit where it's due. He's hands down the most skilled terran to ever play the game and he's goddamn impressive to watch. If anyone thinks otherwise, they're not a fan of starcraft, end of discussion.
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On January 13 2011 22:36 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 20:42 Baddieko wrote:
I'm sure why bisu opened this build. The cross positions, bridges and small entrance to nat. He used the most direct build to late game pvp, didnt expect stork as macro player to play aggressive. its the size of the map, if you watch the game youll see bisu dodging the obs path with his dt. That would normally allow or the dt timing to catch stork off guard, because with an observer on the other corner of the map (longest possible distance) bisu could do a ton of damage, the key to this game is that stork both noticed a dt with his dragoon and that he counted the goons guarding bisu's base, and thus built a second obs and made a wall with his units instead of immediately getting a shuttle and reaver. At that point bisu needed to buy time because storks build (since it wasnt fast tech) had him at 4 gates to 2 (and actually 3 to 1) at one point, so he moved the shuttle out hoping to get some time. What then happened was stork saw the shuttle move out and contrary to popular belief was trying to catch the shuttle (watch where his goons go) not go all in or timing attack and secure his win, when the shuttle wasnt there (bisu moves it because he sees that stork saw his shuttle because of goon movement) he realizes his shuttle either a, went the long way around to slip past goons or b, is ridiculously out of position dodging his goons, both of which tell him that the time to attack is now. Stork was not really aggressive he just played out his build order advantage correctly, before bisu had the gates to match stork.
This is pretty spot on
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On January 13 2011 23:28 integral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:30 Holgerius wrote:
He said he thinks the style of play is very attractive; have you ever heard anyone call Flash's style attractive? I haven't, because it's totally fucking boring. You can't really think this, can you? I can understand it from a 7-post noobie but an ~8700 post forum veteran with a KT icon? What the fuck? ---- Flash is easily the most dynamic and interesting terran player to watch. He varies his builds almost every game, and has an absolutely ridiculous win-rate doing it. He wins using every strategy you can possibly think of to win with, and a lot you can't. He'll bunker rush a 12 nexus after scouting it late, he'll use dropships and utterly embarrass Best in his strongest matchup on his favorite map; TvZ he has unorthodox infantry timings vs zerg to deny their third that require impeccable micro vs lings and mutas to not get raped (and thus few other terran players really even attempt -- and honestly he occasionally shouldn't, since it occasionally loses him an OSL finals), and don't even get me started on how his marines often seem to be invincible to lurkers; his TvT at his worst involves throwing away countless units and still making a game of it with impeccable macro, and at his best is a fucking vice closing on your throat one expansion at a time. His defense is incredible, his attacks are at insane timings, his control is often so astonishingly good that it's ridiculous. Any player who is capable of beating him is a testament to countless hours of hard work, and these days it's hard to call most of flash's rare losses anything but flukes. And I'm not even a flash fanboy: you have to give credit where it's due. He's hands down the most skilled terran to ever play the game and he's goddamn impressive to watch. If anyone thinks otherwise, they're not a fan of starcraft, end of discussion. I read a first few lines of your post and I must say...
Not enough skill in detecting sarcasm.
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On January 13 2011 22:36 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 20:42 Baddieko wrote:
I'm sure why bisu opened this build. The cross positions, bridges and small entrance to nat. He used the most direct build to late game pvp, didnt expect stork as macro player to play aggressive. its the size of the map, if you watch the game youll see bisu dodging the obs path with his dt. That would normally allow or the dt timing to catch stork off guard, because with an observer on the other corner of the map (longest possible distance) bisu could do a ton of damage, the key to this game is that stork both noticed a dt with his dragoon and that he counted the goons guarding bisu's base, and thus built a second obs and made a wall with his units instead of immediately getting a shuttle and reaver. At that point bisu needed to buy time because storks build (since it wasnt fast tech) had him at 4 gates to 2 (and actually 3 to 1) at one point, so he moved the shuttle out hoping to get some time. What then happened was stork saw the shuttle move out and contrary to popular belief was trying to catch the shuttle (watch where his goons go) and secure his win, when the shuttle wasnt there (bisu moves it because he sees that stork saw his shuttle because of goon movement) he realizes his shuttle either a, went the long way around to slip past goons or b, is ridiculously out of position dodging his goons, both of which tell him that the time to attack is now. Stork was not really aggressive he just played out his build order advantage correctly, before bisu had the gates to match stork.
Yeah, it's totally this. If you watch the minimap, all game long Stork was playing reactionary to what Bisu was doing. Stork's decision making and game sense is crazy good right now. I haven't seen Stork's early game PvZ in a while so I'm looking forward to Stork vs Modesty. As far as the mid-game and beyond, Stork is looking pretty unbeatable at the moment.
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as someone has said before Stork might be hitting a second career peek. I guess there must be some very special reason that he is now pushing himself to escape the sea of mediocrity that he was in during the first half of 2010.
also, KT vs Khan is going to be an epic acid test for Stork. That is, provided that he (or Flash) could be sent. 
I remember Flash defeated all TaekBangLee during his rampage of the last SWL. Imagine if Stork defeats TaekLeeSsang within just one week this time? lol mind = blown.
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On January 13 2011 23:28 integral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:30 Holgerius wrote:
He said he thinks the style of play is very attractive; have you ever heard anyone call Flash's style attractive? I haven't, because it's totally fucking boring. You can't really think this, can you? I can understand it from a 7-post noobie but an ~8700 post forum veteran with a KT icon? What the fuck? ---- Flash is easily the most dynamic and interesting terran player to watch. He varies his builds almost every game, and has an absolutely ridiculous win-rate doing it. He wins using every strategy you can possibly think of to win with, and a lot you can't. He'll bunker rush a 12 nexus after scouting it late, he'll use dropships and utterly embarrass Best in his strongest matchup on his favorite map; TvZ he has unorthodox infantry timings vs zerg to deny their third that require impeccable micro vs lings and mutas to not get raped (and thus few other terran players really even attempt -- and honestly he occasionally shouldn't, since it occasionally loses him an OSL finals), and don't even get me started on how his marines often seem to be invincible to lurkers; his TvT at his worst involves throwing away countless units and still making a game of it with impeccable macro, and at his best is a fucking vice closing on your throat one expansion at a time. His defense is incredible, his attacks are at insane timings, his control is often so astonishingly good that it's ridiculous. Any player who is capable of beating him is a testament to countless hours of hard work, and these days it's hard to call most of flash's rare losses anything but flukes. And I'm not even a flash fanboy: you have to give credit where it's due. He's hands down the most skilled terran to ever play the game and he's goddamn impressive to watch. If anyone thinks otherwise, they're not a fan of starcraft, end of discussion.
LOLOLOL, you are actually preaching to the choir here. XD I totally didn't expect anyone to fall for my retarded post. :D
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On January 13 2011 23:34 mnesthes wrote:
I read a first few lines of your post and I must say...
Not enough skill in detecting sarcasm.
Everyone who says flash's play style is boring, are they all sarcastic too?
I took the opportunity presented to respond to the annoyingly persistent idea that the most dynamic terran player of all time is boring to watch. The sarcasm only works because there are people who truly think something so utterly ridiculous. No one who is a fan of starcraft would say something like that.
That said, I do understand that it is repetitious to see one or two players consistently dominating everyone else, but since when is losing in an utterly dominated fashion the fault of the winner? It would be good for all of broodwar if the other players stepped up their games and made it more competitive. This brings us full circle to why people are excited about stork doing well and why we started talking about flash in the first place.
edit: Thanks for clarifying, holgerius, Poe's Law and all that.
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Russian Federation3329 Posts
SNAP... dang it stork...
JAEDONG FOR THE WIN!!!
Please crush stork with ultimate builds Jaedong!!!
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On January 14 2011 00:03 integral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:34 mnesthes wrote:
I read a first few lines of your post and I must say...
Not enough skill in detecting sarcasm. Everyone who says flash's play style is boring, are they all sarcastic too? I took the opportunity presented to respond to the annoyingly persistent idea that the most dynamic terran player of all time is boring to watch. The sarcasm only works because there are people who truly think something so utterly ridiculous. No one who is a fan of starcraft would say something like that. That said, I do understand that it is repetitious to see one or two players consistently dominating everyone else. Since when is losing in an utterly dominated fashion the fault of the winner? It would be good for all of broodwar if the other players stepped up their games and made it more competitive. This brings us full circle to why people are excited about stork doing well and why we started talking about flash in the first place. No, certainly they are not, but surely you must haven't noticed that Holg is probably the most openly ... supportive to Flash.
tbh I can't even think of anyone with a KT tag that doesn't have something for Flash.
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I havent been able to stay awake for 1 entire flash game....ever!
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On January 13 2011 22:38 gk_ender wrote:
its the size of the map, if you watch the game youll see bisu dodging the obs path with his dt. That would normally allow or the dt timing to catch stork off guard, because with an observer on the other corner of the map (longest possible distance) bisu could do a ton of damage, the key to this game is that stork both noticed a dt with his dragoon and that he counted the goons guarding bisu's base, and thus built a second obs and made a wall with his units instead of immediately getting a shuttle and reaver. At that point bisu needed to buy time because storks build (since it wasnt fast tech) had him at 4 gates to 2 (and actually 3 to 1) at one point, so he moved the shuttle out hoping to get some time. What then happened was stork saw the shuttle move out and contrary to popular belief was trying to catch the shuttle (watch where his goons go) not go all in or timing attack and secure his win, when the shuttle wasnt there (bisu moves it because he sees that stork saw his shuttle because of goon movement) he realizes his shuttle either a, went the long way around to slip past goons or b, is ridiculously out of position dodging his goons, both of which tell him that the time to attack is now. Stork was not really aggressive he just played out his build order advantage correctly, before bisu had the gates to match stork.
Sorry, but must disagree.
1. There was no DT timing. Because he had no scouting info for the early game given the BO disadvantage(pylon before Core vs Bisu's Core before pylon). Stork went with perhaps the safest PvP BO that perhaps ever existed. 2-gate obs basically prevent any cheese. But also inherently disadvantageous against quick expansion. Stork did not need to see the DT nor count Bisu's goons. It was his BO that stopped the DTs.
2. Bisu's DT-Expansion is a normal PvP build. It's also an economic build. Not cheese. DTs give you map control and cannons prevent quick counter/opposing DTs. Observers does not counter dt-expansion. Especially not in cross position. Bisu had earlier expansion, better tech tree, and all he needed to do was play standard to maintain a healthy advantage.
3. Bisu never needed to "buy time". He just needed to stop freaking make every tech imaginable before adding gateways. For christ sakes Bisu was upgrading +1, storm, two templars, shuttle, observers, etc. that his goon range didn't even finish when Stork arrived. Whatever each player opened, you don't have less than half the opponent's dragoon count when he reaches your base in cross positions WITH EARLIER EXPANSION. Think about how greedy you have to be for that to happen.
Stork never had the BO advantage. He had the "Bisu played like it was 15-minutes no attack" advantage.
Edit: From Stork's interview
+ Show Spoiler +- You played a beautiful match.
▲After our openings I thought it was my reavers against his HT, but I saw with my obs that he only built 2 HT, so he must have used his gas for something else. Normally reaver goon combo would not necessarily work against his build, but after seeing this situation I attacked decisively and it worked perfectly.
Edit2: The Flash fan rage in this thread is hilarious.
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On January 14 2011 00:11 purpose wrote:
I havent been able to stay awake for 1 entire flash game....ever!
He started 09-10 Proleague with a 1 base 2-rax timing attack that ended up killing 90% of zergs instantly. How do you fall asleep for a 10 minute game?
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BB Bisu.
Only Zero, Great and Fanta still in play from my favorites.
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On January 13 2011 21:15 arbiter_md wrote:
When is KT vs Khan winners league game? We might have a new bonjwa here. Well, a starting point I mean.
Probably one of the most rediculous ideas I've ever heard
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EPT
