On December 15 2010 08:14 gnutz wrote:
From my experience, this is enough to get in diamond.
From my experience, this is enough to get in diamond.
Agreed 100%.
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Chill
Calgary25950 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:14 gnutz wrote: From my experience, this is enough to get in diamond. Agreed 100%. | ||
Stiver
Canada285 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:09 farseerdk wrote: Show nested quote + On December 15 2010 08:05 Stiver wrote: Immortals are one of the few hard counters built into the game where Units they counter literally do next to no damage, and they do like 150% more damage to that specific unit type. At no point is it ever cost effective to use tanks/thors/ultralisks/Roaches to fight any sort of Immortal based composition. This is wrong. Immortals are one of the worst units in the game. They barely beat roaches cost for cost in a straight up fight. They are slow and fat and short ranged. Thors destroy them with 250mm cannons. Ultras are decent against immos because of splash. Same goes for tanks in large numbers. Immortals are very good early game, like when you have 1 or 2 of them to stop a 2-3 tank contain, but they're terrible late game. Stop spamming immos past 2 base play! OK this is totally off topic. Can we stop talking about counters now? So basically this statement is the reason I'm 100% sure Protoss players are using Immortals wrong. Hopefully I can meet you on the ladder and actually use Ultralisks and not get smoked when they switch to Immortals. | ||
MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:14 Chill wrote: I don't care about the tangential stuff like "well I can run away with my faster Zerglings" because that doesn't enter the scope of what a counter is. If you look at it in a completely abstract way like this then yes certain units will kill others. An army of colossi will kill an equal army of marines. But in a real world game things like micro, army size, and army composition can make this type of logic completely obsolete. Yes immortals will destroy a tank line, but if P also has one void ray P will win that battle. Plenty of times when I've gone colossi in the mid game, I've seen terran players get a mass of 15 or more vikings. Yes those will "counter" my 3 colossi, but then my stalker/zealot/sentry army will decimate terran's ground army. Sure vikings can help deal with colossi, but if they are not implemented within the context of a balanced army composition terran will lose. When applied in game the "counter" mentality simply doesn't work. But that's just IMO. | ||
deathray797
196 Posts
sc2 bronze-gold -no idea how to play sc2 platinum-iccup E -not too bad at macro -knows a bo or two sc2 diamond-iccup D+ -okay at macro -knows a few bo's -can micro a little -can transition into mid and endgame iccup C+ -good at macro -knows medium number of bo's -can micro -can transition iccup B+ -at least 200 apm -really good at macro -knows alot of bo's -micro well -transition well iccup A+ -300-400 apm -pro -pro -pro -pro | ||
AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:15 Chill wrote: Show nested quote + On December 15 2010 08:14 gnutz wrote: From my experience, this 1) "Never stop making workers" is enough to get in diamond. 2) "Never stop making army" Agreed 100%. Yep. I'm 1900 diamond and don't know shit about strategy, and I know my opponents don't know shit either. Anybody below 2000 diamond who's talking about strategy beyond the common sense stuff is deluding themselves. | ||
Chill
Calgary25950 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:39 TheToast wrote: Show nested quote + On December 15 2010 08:14 Chill wrote: I don't care about the tangential stuff like "well I can run away with my faster Zerglings" because that doesn't enter the scope of what a counter is. If you look at it in a completely abstract way like this then yes certain units will kill others. An army of colossi will kill an equal army of marines. But in a real world game things like micro, army size, and army composition can make this type of logic completely obsolete. Yes immortals will destroy a tank line, but if P also has one void ray P will win that battle. Plenty of times when I've gone colossi in the mid game, I've seen terran players get a mass of 15 or more vikings. Yes those will "counter" my 3 colossi, but then my stalker/zealot/sentry army will decimate terran's ground army. Sure vikings can help deal with colossi, but if they are not implemented within the context of a balanced army composition terran will lose. When applied in game the "counter" mentality simply doesn't work. But that's just IMO. Did the Vikings beat the Colossi? Great, they counter them. | ||
FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:31 Chill wrote: Show nested quote + On December 15 2010 07:29 TheToast wrote: On December 15 2010 07:15 Chill wrote: On December 15 2010 06:46 TheToast wrote: This however I do take major issue with. There are no such things as "counters" as Day9 has said there is only forcing and responding. can benefit from reading stuff on the strategy forum here at TL. Honestly I think you are better off watching Day9, pro-replays, and user streams. That's retarded, of course there are counters. I don't think you really understood the point he was making when he said that. There are no such thing as "hard counters" that is, no one unit is ultimately good against another. Yes there are. Day[9] is like the Bible. People interpret what he says to be whatever they want it to be, and then create a religion based off that interpretation. | ||
FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
Fact of the matter is that there is only one thing required to get to diamond, and half the players in diamond don't even have it figured out: Semi-decent macro, which is basically what you listed as required for silver. So I don't know what you think diamond level players are, as most of them don't even have this figured out. | ||
Macavenger
United States1132 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:42 farseerdk wrote: Show nested quote + On December 15 2010 07:40 Macavenger wrote: Your list of points for Platinum is a little bit high, specifically the first two. You don't need to have a perfectly tight build just to get to Diamond; decently tight yes, but hitting every pylon right on 100 etc. is more of a high diamond thing. Likewise, most low diamond players I know slip slightly on macro off two base sometimes while multitasking. Yeah that's what you need to get OUT of plat. I dunno I think being tight for the first 3-5 minutes isn't that hard... that's like <50 food play here. On December 15 2010 07:42 Shelke14 wrote: I think you're kinda missing his point. What he is trying to say is in order to be promoted from Plat-Diamond. Do the following and you will get promoted. He's not saying all plat players are like that. You both appear to have misread my post. Note that I'm talking about low diamond players for all of it outside of the first sentence. I'm saying the first two traits he lists as necessary to get out of Platinum are not commonly exhibited by low Diamond players (at least not as strongly as he words them), and thus not necessary to be promoted from Platinum. | ||
KarlSberg~
731 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:39 TheToast wrote:If you look at it in a completely abstract way like this then yes certain units will kill others. An army of colossi will kill an equal army of marines. But in a real world game things like micro, army size, and army composition can make this type of logic completely obsolete. Yes immortals will destroy a tank line, but if P also has one void ray P will win that battle. Plenty of times when I've gone colossi in the mid game, I've seen terran players get a mass of 15 or more vikings. Yes those will "counter" my 3 colossi, but then my stalker/zealot/sentry army will decimate terran's ground army. Sure vikings can help deal with colossi, but if they are not implemented within the context of a balanced army composition terran will lose. When applied in game the "counter" mentality simply doesn't work. But that's just IMO. What's your definition of a counter? A unit that can kill any oposing army containing some specific unit regardless of the global composition of the army? | ||
Arterial
Australia1039 Posts
Diamond i wouldnt say has high cheese...more early all ins than anything | ||
farseerdk
Canada504 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:22 Stiver wrote: Show nested quote + On December 15 2010 08:09 farseerdk wrote: On December 15 2010 08:05 Stiver wrote: Immortals are one of the few hard counters built into the game where Units they counter literally do next to no damage, and they do like 150% more damage to that specific unit type. At no point is it ever cost effective to use tanks/thors/ultralisks/Roaches to fight any sort of Immortal based composition. This is wrong. Immortals are one of the worst units in the game. They barely beat roaches cost for cost in a straight up fight. They are slow and fat and short ranged. Thors destroy them with 250mm cannons. Ultras are decent against immos because of splash. Same goes for tanks in large numbers. Immortals are very good early game, like when you have 1 or 2 of them to stop a 2-3 tank contain, but they're terrible late game. Stop spamming immos past 2 base play! OK this is totally off topic. Can we stop talking about counters now? So basically this statement is the reason I'm 100% sure Protoss players are using Immortals wrong. Hopefully I can meet you on the ladder and actually use Ultralisks and not get smoked when they switch to Immortals. From the way you are posting, we would never meet. The match making system would not place me against someone of your... erm... caliber. | ||
zzdd
United States484 Posts
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randplaty
205 Posts
On December 15 2010 09:29 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I think its funny how you think Platinum players are efficient players. Efficient is probably the last word I would use to describe a Platinum player. They pretty much fall apart after 25 supply, when their memorized BO ends. Fact of the matter is that there is only one thing required to get to diamond, and half the players in diamond don't even have it figured out: Semi-decent macro, which is basically what you listed as required for silver. So I don't know what you think diamond level players are, as most of them don't even have this figured out. This is just not true. Semi-decent macro is present for a lot of bronze players and is absent in a LOT of diamond players. There are no such things as basic requirements or points for each league. As a player who started in bronze and has experienced every single league up to diamond, I can tell you for a fact that there are some bronze leaguers who are better at macro and overall strategy than some diamond players. They're still in bronze because they don't know some simple stuff like proper wall offs. There are a LOT of diamond players who stop making probes and only know how to execute one timing push. The difference is that they execute that timing push very well but hardly know how to do anything else. I have a friend in bronze that if I play him straight up, he can out macro me and beat me. The problem is that he doesn't know how to handle stupid stuff like DTs, lings in his base, drop defense, map control etc. | ||
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:14 Chill wrote: Show nested quote + On December 15 2010 07:55 TheToast wrote: On December 15 2010 07:31 Chill wrote: On December 15 2010 07:29 TheToast wrote: On December 15 2010 07:15 Chill wrote: On December 15 2010 06:46 TheToast wrote: This however I do take major issue with. There are no such things as "counters" as Day9 has said there is only forcing and responding. can benefit from reading stuff on the strategy forum here at TL. Honestly I think you are better off watching Day9, pro-replays, and user streams. That's retarded, of course there are counters. I don't think you really understood the point he was making when he said that. There are no such thing as "hard counters" that is, no one unit is ultimately good against another. Yes there are. lol. Well then I have no choice but to agree to disagree with you. Maybe I have a different conception in my mind of what constitutes a "hard counter" idk. But I'm sticking to my assertion that focus should be on unit composition. An Ultralisk can easily kill 400 Zerglings. That's a hard counter. 10 phoenixes can easily kill 100 Mutalisks. I don't care about the tangential stuff like "well I can run away with my faster Zerglings" because that doesn't enter the scope of what a counter is. To say counters don't exist in Starcraft 2 with some convoluted argument is to turn your nose up at common sense. Some units are good at killing others. How are we even having this conversation? Jesus. But But- My shepherd Day9 said something! That means it has to be true! | ||
Stiver
Canada285 Posts
On December 15 2010 09:38 farseerdk wrote: Show nested quote + On December 15 2010 08:22 Stiver wrote: On December 15 2010 08:09 farseerdk wrote: On December 15 2010 08:05 Stiver wrote: Immortals are one of the few hard counters built into the game where Units they counter literally do next to no damage, and they do like 150% more damage to that specific unit type. At no point is it ever cost effective to use tanks/thors/ultralisks/Roaches to fight any sort of Immortal based composition. This is wrong. Immortals are one of the worst units in the game. They barely beat roaches cost for cost in a straight up fight. They are slow and fat and short ranged. Thors destroy them with 250mm cannons. Ultras are decent against immos because of splash. Same goes for tanks in large numbers. Immortals are very good early game, like when you have 1 or 2 of them to stop a 2-3 tank contain, but they're terrible late game. Stop spamming immos past 2 base play! OK this is totally off topic. Can we stop talking about counters now? So basically this statement is the reason I'm 100% sure Protoss players are using Immortals wrong. Hopefully I can meet you on the ladder and actually use Ultralisks and not get smoked when they switch to Immortals. From the way you are posting, we would never meet. The match making system would not place me against someone of your... erm... caliber. You're well over 2000+point Diamond then? | ||
KarlSberg~
731 Posts
D = you know this D+ = you know that C = you can do this B+ = you can do that They are always kind of entertaining but never make any sense. At any level you can find people with - better micro but worse macro than their rank's average - decent mechanics but worse understanding - better understanding that makes up for subpar macro and so on... | ||
hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
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chocopan
Japan986 Posts
On December 15 2010 06:47 Mutarisk wrote: I think you are giving some of the lower leagues too much credit. I have friends who are in gold league/low platinum and they usually always stop worker production at some point (for some reason it's always between 22-26) They don't have set build orders either (as terran players) and they DEFINITELY do not know all the hotkeys to their own race I rather think the opposite. Speaking for SEA anyway, I don't think you can really get very far in Silver without the sort of skills the OP lists as "Gold level". In any case very interesting just to have a general list of things to watch for. Thanks! | ||
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