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I've watched GSL 1,2,3 and I've enjoyed everyone of them. I must be the odd one out because I enjoyed watching the early rushes against Nestea. I think it's exciting knowing that those early battles make every decision an important one and I get completely engrossed when they occur.
It's agreed upon that early marine scv rushes can be defended and I believe it's up to the opponent to defend them. It was horrible when Ret was taking out by aggressive 1 base timing attacks but we all agree, including him, that he could have made better decisions and defended the attacks and won.
In any competition with that much money on the line a player will do anything they can to win. Rain was losing long macro games so of course he makes the smart decision and changes to early rushes. You can't blame an individual for that and I personally enjoy watching those games.
When players get better at defending those early pushes obviously we'll see less of them.
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I'm worried that Blizzard will feel pressured and over-compensate and then we'll only end up with long, drawn-out macro games. Better variety of maps could probably fix it. It definitely should still be OK to cheese sometimes.
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On December 10 2010 10:02 Disastorm wrote:I think it would be nice if one of these "pro cheesers" would purposely say they are cheesing to show blizzard that some balance changes need to be made whether its maps, races, or whatever. I mean imagine an interview with a winner of gsl and if he says "I pretty much suck, I just cheese every game to break the tournament and show Blizzard that they need to fix the game" or something like that lol. Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 09:37 Cephei wrote:On December 10 2010 09:35 Nemireck wrote: Stop focusing on the builds and nerfs and buffs and lets take a step back and look at the real issue that SC2 has at the moment.
The number one problem affecting the cheese issue is that the maps are too small. If the maps were larger, the vast majority of cheese in this game would become ineffective and we could get back to watching quality games. Some of the most entertaining games in SC2 being played today are happening on Shakura's, Metal far positions, Lost Temple, and Scrap Station (Kulas Ravine had some amazing matches as well, lets not forget). They are the most entertaining games because the rush distances are longer, and thus cheese is less effective, leading to more macro-oriented games.
They should make larger maps, and fix the spawns on Metal so that it works like Shakura's Plateau, and I'm sure that would fix the cheese issue entirely. You would just kill half of the game doing that, it's a ridiculous idea. Actually his idea is somewhat understandable. BW's maps were much larger than SC2's maps, and it didn't kill half of the game at all.
BW is a different game to SC2, a very different game so don't try and compare them.
Also as regards to GSL cheese, does anyone really want to see every single game a 45 minute macro game? TBH that would be so boring.
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On December 10 2010 09:35 Nemireck wrote: Stop focusing on the builds and nerfs and buffs and lets take a step back and look at the real issue that SC2 has at the moment.
The number one problem affecting the cheese issue is that the maps are too small. If the maps were larger, the vast majority of cheese in this game would become ineffective and we could get back to watching quality games. Some of the most entertaining games in SC2 being played today are happening on Shakura's, Metal far positions, Lost Temple, and Scrap Station (Kulas Ravine had some amazing matches as well, lets not forget). They are the most entertaining games because the rush distances are longer, and thus cheese is less effective, leading to more macro-oriented games.
They should make larger maps, and fix the spawns on Metal so that it works like Shakura's Plateau, and I'm sure that would fix the cheese issue entirely. Personally, I wish they'd make maps larger. From balance perspective however, terran would be so screwed and I think they'd be in dire need to buffs to compensate(if all maps were made larger that is).
Depending on how multible OC's might pan out, terran is fighting a very uphill battle against equally skilled zerg(and to lesser degree toss) player if you can't get in their face early on. Ontop of that, there's no "go to" unit terran has in late game(well there's the BC, but it's hardly "goto" unless you have won the game already), just more of everything.
Tbh this is why I was against the tank nerf, make bigger maps and I think tank would've been fine at 50(heck prob 60) dmg. As I see it, terran is pretty much balanced around close to semi-close distance(and tbh with zerg macro machine, I'd argue it's also balanced around semi-close distance, just from the other side of the meter).
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Problem is the maps and the fact that T players feel (right or wrong) that they can't beat Z in a long macro game.
I think the whole apology/outrage thing completely ridiculous. If I knew I would win a tournament with that much money on the line by 6 pooling or 2 gate proxy or 2 raxing all-in EVERY game, I would do it in a heartbeat no problem and no apologies.
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rain has self respect, APOLOGIZE FOR PLAYING THIS RACE )
haha reminds me of Idra
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a player should never have to apologize for the way he played
generally if a player loses to allins it means that this player is playing risky/greedy and got punished for it so i would say good job to rain for doing what works and reading his opponent correctly and finding weaknesses in his play
if this cheese or whatever bo he did was imba or not i dont know but ill just assume its balanced
i have more respect for players who allin than play extremely risky and taking huge risks to make himself look good until he get rushed and dies hard. i have most respect for player who play solid tho :p
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I see so many zergs not even scouting in zvt... Seriously, what the hell do they think? They can blindly 14 hatch and be gready not to scout or defend from ramp block? All in them thats my response. I play random and I cant allow myself to play that gready when I get zerg.
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All-ins is very strong and definitely not fun to watch. ]: I've been wondering what's the largest Korean SC2 forum? I bet it would be cool to check the strats there.
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God, why cant the zerg community just be as P a bit? Just get over it.
Now on a serious note: I guess people said it: 14 hatch is the eco cheese equivalent of 2 rax. I guess we could use a patch in these dark times, just so all the flame and angrynesss get softened up.
Want to nerf zerg late? Inject from 4 >3.
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On December 13 2010 11:09 tocador wrote: God, why cant the zerg community just be as P a bit? Just get over it.
Now on a serious note: I guess people said it: 14 hatch is the eco cheese equivalent of 2 rax. I guess we could use a patch in these dark times, just so all the flame and angrynesss get softened up.
Want to nerf zerg late? Inject from 4 >3.
You do realise that 14 hatching is basically the best all-in protection zerg have? This becomes even more the case if you change inject from 4->3 as zerg really are so hard up for larvae in the early game that they need every one they can get.
A lot of the time zerg players 14 hatch they don't get a single drone from it against a 2-rax terran for quite some time. It is purely used for the larvae which are needed to defend against marine rushes.
The other main advantage to getting the 14 hatch is that it helps positioning so much - it takes the battle away from the ramp, prevents bunkers blocking the ramp and gives a small amount of creep on which you can micro lings better.
Honestly as a zerg you don't want to fight in your main because if you do you will almost certainly lose. It gives your opponent the chance to kill half your production (your queen), your economy and possibly even your tech structures, even if you do successfully defend what they send.
14-hatch is the safest build that zerg players can do. There are huge advantages to it and basically no disadvantages by comparison to 1-base play (and yes, expanding around the ~20 food mark is basically 1-base all-in play due to the options it gives your opponent).
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On December 13 2010 11:09 tocador wrote: God, why cant the zerg community just be as P a bit? Just get over it.
cuz protoss isnt actually weak zergs fucking awful
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I think SC2 need a change , it becomes too flexible with strategies and way too fast + cheesy for Terran or Protoss when against Z.
Under normal build, the chances is 50:50
However, if a player purposely try to hide their build and Z did not scout , it became an overwhelming disadvantage for Z
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On December 09 2010 13:17 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:12 Welmu wrote: I wouldn't blame Blizzard on this. I think it's Nestea's problem not being prepared for all-in. Seriously, Marine/SCV all in isn't impossible to beat... the pros (idra,ret,nestea) claim it is actually near impossible. so maybe you know better than them and should teach them the way of the samurai I love this argument. Did you read Protoss players interviews? Did anybody care? Why oh why it's always "l2p" for other races and yet, Blizzard has to quickly fix any difficulty Zerg is experiencing?
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On December 13 2010 11:51 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 11:09 tocador wrote: God, why cant the zerg community just be as P a bit? Just get over it.
cuz protoss isnt actually weak zergs fucking awful Now, this seriously needs some arguments thrown into it.
I find it hilarious when people come up with this. The likes of Tester, Genius and MC are as talented as any Zerg out there, or any terran out there. It's just that they keep playing the game, despite horrible GSL statistics for Toss.
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The issue is one of timing, right?
There'sa period of one or two minutes when Terran are super-OP against zerg, thanks in large part to mules. This also affects TvP, to a lesser extent. Changing mules or marines worsens the situation for lategame T, which is already considered iffy.
Why not just have the Orbital Command start with 0 energy? That'll make the all-in weaker, but it won't affect the Terran very much into the late game when OCs are already up. It won't make late-game T any better, but it'll keep it from getting worse.
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There is no need to QQ on these forms. Its the fault of the meta game. Terran and protoss have a hard time vs zerg if they dont end the game early. In season 1 and 2 macro zerg was the way to go, no one could counter it correctly. Now that terran has a build that counters hatch first you can do 1 of three things, QQ, you can go and try to make another build work, or you can build a solid argument with evidence that all terran all ins are impossible to stop. Being a protoss i can remain objective when judging tvz and ill say this; rain is no more to blame than nestea. nestea went with an economic build and that is susceptible to all ins. As far as cheese goes, people like to miss use this term all the time. Yes, the games rain won may have been short. But are all short games cheese? Responding to someones build order is not cheese. If you blindly 6 pool, that is an example of cheese. If you see someone building nexus first, is it cheese because you decided to build troops and kill it before his economy exploded? No, no race "deserves" to have a 2-1 economic advantage without there being some risk involved. Don't blame rain for capitalizing on nestea's mistakes.
Cant wait for your responses, Adun
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Marine + scv attacks are not allin at all because it forces ton of lings instead of drones and terran can easily catch up with mules while expanding behind it. Only problem so far is that no proper way to defend these attack was found yet or no one is using it (pulling all your drones to defend, fast banelings, early transfuzed spine crawlers etc..) .. maybe except fruitdealer like we saw in his matches against bitbybit.
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On December 13 2010 11:51 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 11:09 tocador wrote: God, why cant the zerg community just be as P a bit? Just get over it.
cuz protoss isnt actually weak zergs fucking awful
Be toss, then. Or Terran. If you can S-class as a "fucking awful" race, then you can be a champion if you pick a stronger race, right?
You were considering going Protoss a while ago, weren't you? Why didn't you? As a toss (slash-random) myself, I was looking forward to one of the biggest name foreigners telling the world how underpowered they were!
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On December 13 2010 11:51 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 11:09 tocador wrote: God, why cant the zerg community just be as P a bit? Just get over it.
cuz protoss isnt actually weak zergs fucking awful
But you <3 Zerg
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