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On October 04 2010 23:43 RyanRushia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 22:57 GoDannY wrote:
All we can do is raise the barrier for those without in-depth knowledge about exploiting and programming to prevent them from using an actual hack. Those who are desperate to hack will do so and will find a way, sadly, but true.
But I think a hack in a shooter (aka wallhack and aimbot) are more of a threat than a maphack in Starcraft. Still it is annoying as hell, though, unless the hacker found some time to learn how to play, it wont help him as much as a hack in a shooter would do.
I hope we still have some progress regarding anti-cheat from both sides, the community and Blizzard. Thanks Ashur for the read! this isn't necessarily true, in warcraft 3 towards the ends of it life (close to when sc2 came out) there was a hack that pretty much did it all. Complete map vision (thats a given) but it also could result in buildings that were invincible (so you could literally never lose, you would lose all your units but your buildings coudlnt be targeted so it woudl come down to which person would be willing to stay in game longer for a win), and a "micro" portion of it, which meant all you had to do was attack move into a base, and when your units reached 100ish health (this was low in wc3 for those that didnt play it) they would automatically be sent back to your base, without you having to touch them this hack raged on for months without any type of intervention from Blizzard, but we all just assumed it was due to them putting so much work into sc2.... i hope that if anyhting serious occurs at sc2 they will be able to fix it much faster
fuck... i remember that invincible buildings hack, people used it in ffa often. There was also a period of about 2-3 weeks where around 1/3rd of FFAs never got started because they got drop hacked. I hope blizz keeps bnet clean, or god knows private servers are going to have to pop up just like in sc1.
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United States4126 Posts
This is really depressing to hear about. I hope Blizzard takes this seriously as it ruins the experience of all the normal people who ladder.
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Calgary25951 Posts
On October 05 2010 00:24 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 23:36 Chill wrote:
Wait, why are you allowed to post here still?
I've always thought it was a sad story that you went from coding tools the entire SC community used to coding SC hacks. Can you post more on this? From the sounds of it he accidentally make a program for BW that could be interpreted as a hack so he didn't release it, and for SC2 he tried making an undetectable hack (possibly to prove a point to blizzard?)
Okay. Well, Ashur used to make sick tools for BW. I can't list or even remember them all, but I think he programmed the original Replay With Audio system (way before VODs). Oh wait that was tec27, but I think he helped improve it. He also made Penguin Plug, which was before Chaos Launcher as a launcher that let you plugin useful tools. He also developed FPReplays, which let you watch replays in first person, kind of like an alpha version of the current SC2 system. All his stuff was so sick.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=35962
Then somewhere down the road I guess he just switched over to developing and releasing maphacks. I never understood what happened to cause the change...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=51691
On April 07 2007 16:33 Ashur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2007 16:31 Cloud wrote:On April 07 2007 16:26 Ashur wrote:On April 07 2007 16:23 Cloud wrote:
Then you made this hack for what, precisely? To make an antihack you need to know//make a hack first. I made many cheats in my life, only few was released to the private groups. ??? Then whats the point of this thread? Threaten people with releasing a hack that wont do shit (only to your reputation) unless they spew out their feelings for this game to you? What the hell is the point of that other than crying for attention? If you dont want to talk, leave. I dont make any threats. I just want to discuss the passion. And my passion is making hacks.
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Im not familiar with...uh... gaming related network stuff (or networking at all). But would server based fog be viable as bandwiths do get bigger? Is ping directly affected by larger amounts of data even if you have enough bandwith?
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On October 05 2010 01:42 Gerbeeros wrote:
Im not familiar with...uh... gaming related network stuff (or networking at all). But would server based fog be viable as bandwiths do get bigger? Is ping directly affected by larger amounts of data even if you have enough bandwith?
It is also an issue as far as investments by blizzard go.
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The hack thing is somethin I am really worried about since I had some really bad experience with WC3 - so many ppl were hacking and blizz kinda did not really care. Looking at CoD: Modern Warfare 2 players are complaining about massive hacking as well.
One way to solve this would be to make ppl pay for bnet - just a few bucks like 5$ or 5€. That way blizzard really has an incentive to make bnet hack-free. However I hope there is a better solution to it.
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On October 05 2010 01:42 Gerbeeros wrote:
Im not familiar with...uh... gaming related network stuff (or networking at all). But would server based fog be viable as bandwiths do get bigger? Is ping directly affected by larger amounts of data even if you have enough bandwith?
If unit calculations are still done client side, then it wouldn't help anyway. All units on the map would still be known in memory.
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I think we should give Blizzard some credit and see how it goes.
I'm pretty sure they're aware of their vulnerabilities and have a plan B (and C and D) for when more cheaters do strike 
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The problem is that if only the server knows where all units are and what they're doing, it's also the server's job to handle damage... basically you end up running the whole game in Blizzard's data centre and the players' machines become clients. After that, I'm not sure if you'd have to do more work (the way you do in FPS games) to make the client side seem responsive enough, but what's more important is that Blizzard probably already has some fairly heavy machinery running just to pipe command streams from player to player for the millions of games that are going on. If they suddenly have to host each one? I doubt that's something they could handle, let alone something they could handle without having us pay them a big pile of money.
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who cares if they cheat, seriously?
People cheat everywhere, all the time in sports.
Can you detect every time you play Billiard against someone, or poker with your friends or whatever that they don't cheat? No you can't.
The only thing that matters in sc2, like in real sports, is that in it's highest competitive form, offline tournament play, is that there nobody will cheat and they won't/can't.
so really, is it so important that this random dude beat you online on ladder cause he hacked?
who gives a fuck, you know that it doesn't count and that you would beat him in a square fight, you should be content with that.
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i got banned for using a g15 keyboard or i think i got banned for that i'm still waiting on clarification though.
could i ask maybe, if its not because of that what other programs would get them to ban me? xfire? livestream in background?
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I don't think the maphack discussion is very interesting. First because Blizzard apparently made a decision that minimizing server ressources per player is more important than being maphack proof. And secondly because I think they're right. The amount of players who will win against a better player only because they used maphacks (in a way that is not obvious, obviously) is very low. It is not an issue when the results of A game actually matter so who cares.
What I am far more interested in is streaming replays, because I think this is a point Blizzard would or at least should be interested in also. I mean I don't know the architecture of the StarCraft II engine but I think for them it would be fairly easy to implement a way to stream replays to a bunch of observers. this would also eliminate the problem we are currently having with observers lagging a game. There could be featured games where anybody can log in at any point in the game (still watch the whole game if they want to of course) and there could be password protected functionality to stream live audio from one or more observers, too.
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On October 05 2010 01:37 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 00:24 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On October 04 2010 23:36 Chill wrote:
Wait, why are you allowed to post here still?
I've always thought it was a sad story that you went from coding tools the entire SC community used to coding SC hacks. Can you post more on this? From the sounds of it he accidentally make a program for BW that could be interpreted as a hack so he didn't release it, and for SC2 he tried making an undetectable hack (possibly to prove a point to blizzard?) Okay. Well, Ashur used to make sick tools for BW. I can't list or even remember them all, but I think he programmed the original Replay With Audio system (way before VODs). Oh wait that was tec27, but I think he helped improve it. He also made Penguin Plug, which was before Chaos Launcher as a launcher that let you plugin useful tools. He also developed FPReplays, which let you watch replays in first person, kind of like an alpha version of the current SC2 system. All his stuff was so sick. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=35962Then somewhere down the road I guess he just switched over to developing and releasing maphacks. I never understood what happened to cause the change... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=51691Show nested quote +On April 07 2007 16:33 Ashur wrote:On April 07 2007 16:31 Cloud wrote:On April 07 2007 16:26 Ashur wrote:On April 07 2007 16:23 Cloud wrote:
Then you made this hack for what, precisely? To make an antihack you need to know//make a hack first. I made many cheats in my life, only few was released to the private groups. ??? Then whats the point of this thread? Threaten people with releasing a hack that wont do shit (only to your reputation) unless they spew out their feelings for this game to you? What the hell is the point of that other than crying for attention? If you dont want to talk, leave. I dont make any threats. I just want to discuss the passion. And my passion is making hacks.
 wow so sad. That sucks, I guess he likes the challenge of finding holes in games and exploiting them.
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If hackers are so smart why can't they learn to play SC2 without cheats? Just sayin.
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It is not a battle in hacker's favor. Hackers are only fueled by interest, while blizzard programmers gets paid by money and does it for a living.
Eventually Sc2 would be too secured to be worth the effort to hack or all the hackers just lose all interest in cracking sc2. You can say that all they need is 1 good hack that avoids detection and they are good but blizzard is not blind. Revealing any hacks that you make in the public, will get their attention. If you can read their code, then they can read your code and make appropriate changes to counteract it.
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On October 05 2010 01:55 Rah wrote:
If hackers are so smart why can't they learn to play SC2 without cheats? Just sayin.
because playing sc2 has nothing to do with being smart, nothing.
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On October 05 2010 01:57 Kexx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 01:55 Rah wrote:
If hackers are so smart why can't they learn to play SC2 without cheats? Just sayin. because playing sc2 has nothing to do with being smart, nothing.
Someone's lost one too many games recently. I can pull up at least a dozen examples of the smarter player winning in SC2, but think what you want.
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Best thing to do is live with it and permanently ban caught offenders from the community. Ex-hackers still piss me off to this day, and their reputations with a lot of people are going to be forever tarnished (I'm looking at you lastshadow).
But, it's inevitable. Hackers just don't have the passion to actually get better at the game. They are pathetic, selfish losers deserving of respect only from their pale and horribly inept brethren.
Great, good job you learned how software works. Thanks for wasting your time ruining our e-sport. It literally makes me sick. Watching that video in the OP made my stomach churn. Hacking is the most horrible thing you can do with respect to competitive video games.
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The "memory walk" issue has been a known security problem with basically all high-profile applications ever written. There are even entire languages (specifically the financially-focused language "R") that have been designed around obfusification of memory addresses. Windows itself keeps things like password field buffers split into hundreds of different addresses, and even this is not fool proof. I assume even basic obfusication would massivly hurt the performance of SC2... But there has to be a clever way of at least -partially- obscuring the registers for any particular bit of allocated memory that SC2 takes... I'd guess something as simple as using a hardware address, and IRQ or (I'm not a Windows buff so I don't know the reality of this) entropy.
Again though... adding a single operation to every memory lookup would probably cripple the performance of SC2.
Just to help with those who do not understand: what he is saying is that there are programs being developed that "scan" the current "state" of SC2 and can report what they find. There is literally no way for SC2 itsself to know this is happening, short of looking for other processes that might be checking on its registeres (which is computationally problematic, not to mention bad programming practice, as well as cpu intense). The only logical solution is to have SC2 "hide" its allocations or to encrypt its memory. The former is more realistic than the latter due to it being simplier and therefore easier to do 5 million times a second.
All I can say as a positive note is that these players will never win tournaments... Otherwise, the only realistic solution from _our_ perspective is a "blacklist" application that simply checks for running applications with a memory footprint that looks like a known "scanner" cheat. Simply put, we really need to start making an index of every single "scanner". It would at very least keep 99% of the script-kiddies from cheating, although it wouldn't stop anyone smart enough to flip a few bits in their "scanner".
Food for thought I guess. Good thing there is more to SC than responding to a build or unit placement. It also requires micro and macro, which no cheat can help you with.
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On October 05 2010 02:02 Rah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 01:57 Kexx wrote:On October 05 2010 01:55 Rah wrote:
If hackers are so smart why can't they learn to play SC2 without cheats? Just sayin. because playing sc2 has nothing to do with being smart, nothing. Someone's lost one too many games recently. I can pull up at least a dozen examples of the smarter player winning in SC2, but think what you want.
You can be the computer world's answer to Enstein if you wish, if you dont have the APM to make up for it, you're gonna lose games.
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EPT
