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My 2 cents.
For PvP I almost always (exception are close air distance long ground maps which I might go for a fast VR) go for 3 gates + Council.
The council let's you have a lot of versatility to adapt to your opponent, blink will usually be enough to fend of early void rays, chargelots are very good against immortals or heavy stalkers armies. I usually get blink first unless I have a very good reason to get charge.
From there you will see the fact that you have these 2 upgrades (potentially) + 3 gates make you strong enough to counter any 1 base army, blink stalkers will be good against void rays (unless he makes ton and get them charged up, you must win the game before that since he will have a weak army, if you fear a very big number of void rays, try to see the surround of your base to be there before they are charged up and either get phoenix or your own void rays (on top of your stalkers)). Charge lots will be good against blink stalkers (backed up by your own) and immortals.
Your opponent then won't be able to go heavy HT or colossus with one base, so you either expand yourself or try to finish him right there.
You must be aware of DTs, a good follow up then is to add one robo for observers it will help your blink stalkers and fend of DTs. You can also go forge to defend against DT. But go forge if you expand not on one base (and add sentries because it will cost a lot of minerals).
From the council you have also the option of going DT yourself, this is a very viable option if your opponent goes void rays or blink. Do not neglect the use of DTs later in the game also, they are useful to really harass some bad expansions.
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Hey man, IMO there is only one good build right now for PvP. 2 into 3 gate lots. I was winning games pressing 5z 6z 7z, I HAD NO IDEA, that you could MBS, now that I can just press 5zzz for all three gates, micro is a joke PvP, just keep you Nextus on like 4 or something and only start getting probs again once you have all three gates full of lots. * you start cutting probs after the first lot starts being built. (I think that is when I do it, can't remember 100%.)
I LOVE IT, when PvP they try to proxy me , right out side my base or in it, because I put my two gates right next to my Nextus, everything comes out a little faster, and I can just micro the $*%@ out of them
But here is the key, while I am microing like a dog, If my rush fails (I have started getting probs again and have down a core and a assim, because you have more then enough money to push out 3 lots constantly and get the core and assim, while cutting prob production) I am ready to transition into stalkers and sents.
Now once it goes to mid game, NEVER tech, I MEAN LIKE NEVER, if your playing vs a good player, they are going to win with just lots, stalkers and sents for FF and G-shield. IF you get that robo and OBS, that is just another 3-2 units you do not have to help win the fight.
Any ways, thats what I like to do,
Good hunting,
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Sentries are like the core of the core in PvP, one well placed FF can trap so many stalkers before they can even blink. If you make more then 4 stalkers in the beginning and not have a sentries, you are gurantee to lose to a mass zealot/sentries army.
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i used to do Zealot/Sentries in the early phases of beta while i was in Platinum, but that doesn't seem to work anymore.
anyone else still see that strat still flying around in PvP?
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On August 02 2010 15:08 Whiztard wrote: i used to do Zealot/Sentries in the early phases of beta while i was in Platinum, but that doesn't seem to work anymore.
anyone else still see that strat still flying around in PvP?
It is still strong versus stalker heavy armies, especially if you have chargelots. I have won a couple of games trapping an army here and there. Stalkers have an edge against zealots only if they can kite for a long time, sentries deny that and a zealot wacking at a stalker is not pretty to watch.
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I'm surprised that people aren't higher on the four gate. If it's done competently the only viable option I see is force fielding the ramp and that won't work on every map. Either that or extremely strong micro with an immortal or two out 2 or 3 gate + robo. Rushing the stalker is also critical because if you don't it's easy for the 4 gater to have a scout running around then dropping 2 or 3 pylons behind the mineral line. If the four gater is also using the cheesier variant of the four-gate where he an extremely early gateway, rushes warp tech, and cuts probes while saving chrono boosts, the 4 gater has enough minerals to build 3 or 4 pylons in your mineral line before the stalker comes out and you probably can't get them down before he starts chrono boosting zealot warp ins.
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every single protoss in platinum and diamond that i have faced 2 gates. EVERY SINGLE TIME. i just played 3 matches in a row against protoss, every time they 2 gate. by the time i see it, it's way too late(no joke, 4 players map i guess wrong 2 times before finding it..almost every time). i'm already building my core, while he is starting to mass his zealots. i find it that my only option is to try and micro a stalker around, but that's never going to work. what ends up happening is i micro, he realizes that it's going nowhere and his zealots will never catch the stalker, and goes to the mineral line. 1 stalker will take about...5 god damn minutes to kill the 4 zealots he has. then come the reinforcements. most of the time i am able to hold this initial push off, but the damage is too much. it's not like he's hurt that economically, while i'm down a few probes(i pull them off, but he snipes a few). after this, i now have to mass up the stalkers in case he comes in with a 4 gate zealot push, but what happens instead most of the time, is a 2 gate robo immortal stalker push, and i get destroyed. my friend who's a diamond level zerg sees the exact same thing too. i try to mix up my play, colossi, templar, dark templar, immortal drops, etc, and i really enjoy it when it works, but it rarely gets by the 15 minute mark because of 2 gate, it's starting to ruin my fun. i tried to go cannons against a 2 gate once, and it work really well, but he was smart enough not to push. i tried to get fast voidrays out to try and catch him off guard, but he had blink stalkers by this time, and destroyed me. i can't figure out how to beat it without 2 gating also, which defeats the purpose of what i want to accomplish, which is get better at various builds..
what i do though...i mostly 2 gate robo, or 3-4 warpgate into hts. if i go 2 gate robo, i can almost guarantee an immortal drop on the mineral line. i think people really underestimate the power of an immortal drop. even better if you warp in a few stalkers or zealots if you have charge. decimate the mineral line, then leave...well move the prism back out of range of the marines. once he moves his army back to the front, do it again. hit the natural, hit other expansions, it's very flexible, and a great way to harass. i hardly ever rely on just stalkers, sentries, and zealots..unless i have to.
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i have to say i almoust always go 2/3 gate void ray with some sentry and alot of stalkers.Because stalkers are so mobile , i think that zealots are very easy to micro away when they don't have charge ... U should keep the Rays with ur main army, it rapes immortals and if it is charged it rapes stalker's to ;d btw this is my first post. Nice to meet en\very 1 here on TL
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140172 I do always 'The Korean style' 4 warpgate rush. Diamond 450. PvP is my strongest matchup (like 4 wins out of 5). If they tech they loose, if they got warpgate later but also 4 gates they will have a difficult time. The games are generally over after 7 min because the first warpin starts at 5 min 20. So ever toss build should take in account the fact that the opponent can have 4 stalkers in your main at 5m20, and 4 extra reinforcement at 5m55. If you don't have enough units at that point/don't have warpgate, then you have lost.
every single protoss in platinum and diamond that i have faced 2 gates. It is quite popular (like 25%-33% of the games) at diamond level. However it is so easy to scout. When you see it immediately put a second gate and chrono zealots. You should have an equal number of zealots when he moves in. Then, it comes down to micro. Ifyou already have put down your core, then you will need 1 sentry to cut their zealots in half on the ramp. Make zealots for the rest and add quickly another gate.
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If you split your oponents army with a sentry once, when he attacks, the game is over. The only thing that worries me in PvP is the 3 gate zealot warp in crap which is just unbeatable unless you do it yourself, or get a canon or somit.
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In every PvP i play right now, i face 2 gate proxy or 3 gate zealot warp in with pylons in my base. It´s just annoying like hell to play pvp right now. I really never get into a real lategame with 1-2 expos because my opponent allins every time.
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Lately i've been having alot of success with this build in diamond. maybe you would call it 1 gate fast blink but this works very well for me atm.
very standard opening: 9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 18 core + 2nd gas (warpgate research asap) 20 forge (yes a forge) 21 stalker 24 gate, council + pylon (reseach blink asap) 26 stalker 28 2 more gates and +1 weapons (CB this) 30 proxy
looks expensive but you'll have enough minerals to do ALL of that. move out when +1 is done and focus on blink micro. try to queue a probe with every 50 minerals you have excess. what i actually do varies and my timing is not perfect but that's a rough outline of what i do.
if you scout 2 gate, mirror your opponent for the time being and defend and focus on zealot micro, you may have to skip on +1 weapons or even building the forge entirely.
the +1 is just a security.
i'll save my pvp replays from now on so i can post it up.
is there a way bnet won't delete older replays?
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I go 12 gate, (scout after pylon) if my opponent goes 1 gate gas I do a 12/14 chrono zealot rush(works on most maps other than the really long walk distance one) if I see 12/14 gate. I mean its really hard to beat 12/14 gate if you are going 1 gate
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I usually go a 12/13 gate, core build however, what you do really depends on the map. I think outside of a few maps, it's really difficult to have a build that's effective against pvp. I mean, going into the game. Rather you need to focus on scouting more than anything and pushing your defenders advantage to the brink the most to get away with the most teching, production, or econ you can.
With good micro you can go 1 gate, core 1 gate against a two gate and when you get that stalker up, it'll usually be gg for the two gate pressure.
I'd say the most dangerous aspect of this match up is the threat of DT's. It almost forces you to go robo, but then you get steam rolled by all the other all-in builds or 4 gate pushes. With that in mind, favoring 1 base colossus/immortal + stalker on some maps, or a FE with forge on others that allow it is preferable to me. Considering of course you get early proper scouting. Saccing probes and harassing with stalkers at the front like one would in pvt to check out the buildings and composition is imperative in this match up.
All in all, i'd say constant scouting and pressuring with stalkers is the crucial part of the match up and the rest is just seeing how much you can get away with, without giving your opponent too much of an opportunity.
-Aletheia27
ps: if anyone cares, i'm about 570 diamond right now, although i haven't played in a few days
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On August 02 2010 08:52 SirNeshorn wrote: I'm not extremely good in PvP either (diamond rank, but still no great player), but I usually win if I just sacrifice a probe or a zealot extra to scout. Your initial scout will usually see if he goes for a quick 2-gate or 1-gate to cybercore in case you are worried about a rush, and after that when the first stalker comes out, he will usually pick your scout off unless you've sent it back home. Scouting is always key (as in any matchup), but especially in PvP I think. I very rarely make any tech buildings before I got 3 gates, and I have lost several times when trying to get a fairly quick robo facility for an observer and the opponent goes 4-gate and simply roflstomps me. No matter what, 4-gate is a very solid build, and you can easily adept to mid- and late game even if you decide to push and don't break him. As some other mentioned, I also never FE vs a protoss, as that spells certain doom if he scouts it early.
Another fairly solid build I like to use is to quickly mass up some zealots and upgrade charge pretty fast. Chargelots usually own stalkers pretty badly, even if the opponent microes well. And even if it comes to that, you can basically attack-move the whole way while he needs to pay attention to his stalkers all the time (assume you've got more zealots than him anyways) and macro poorly unless his APM is really good. Even if he techs up to stuff like colossi, you will usually still come out on top due to that he won't have enough units to protect his tech units. This build, however, excels mostly at Blistering Sands or any map that you can break a way up to your opponent's base by destroying some rocks. Another great thing about this build is that it's mineral heavy only, and if you should fail, you got tons of gas to use if some other units are needed later (do keep probes in your assimilators even though you mass zealots!). If there is only one ramp, you may get screwed pretty badly if he has sentries and FFs half of your zealots on top of the ramp while the rest just roam around like madmen at the bottom. Stargate builds also (naturally) own this, but if you see it in time, you can start warp in stalkers to counter the initial void rays.
I guess scouting is the key, really.
Edit: with quick charge and lots of zealots vs a balanced protoss army: add an immortal or two into this build, and you're golden. Again, unless he got a quick stargate up. Good post, I agree with all of this. I have been favoring 3 gate robo with charge following shortly after that and pumping mostly zealots after my initial handful of stalkers and sentries to free up gas for whatever tech/upgrades I decide to invest in next. Pretty strong vs most things besides air.
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