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What are other diamond protoss players doing as their "standard" build in this Match-up? I am currently a ~300 diamond protoss player, and I am having a lot of trouble with this match-up. It seems that there are A LOT of viable builds now, making anything resembling standard close to impossible.
-4 gate stalkers -4 gate stalker/zealot mix -2/3 gate robo (for immos) (often early obs for scouting) -1 base colosus -1 base fast blink -3/4 gate mildly fast expand (mostly on LT and BS) -9/10 gate proxy warp in (sooo annoying)
Basically, this makes me feel like this match up is a clusterfuck and I should just 3 gate and try to react accordingly, but once the first stalker is out I am completely blind, and getting a robo and an obs and getting it there is too much of a sacrifice in this mirror to be worth it. This is especially true on maps with back doors or wide chokes like BS, scrap station, and kulas ravine.
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Yeah I have a lot of trouble with PVP because even though I'll have stalkers/lotsand immortals I just get overwhelmed by chargelots I usually do a 1 gate with sents to block off early pressure + robo so I can scout early then build more gateways saving chrono's for gateway tech, then build accordingly to what the opponent is building.
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What I mostly do is get a phoenix or VR to scout / harass / contain(a little a least), and then try to get my NE up with minimal defense. This way I get the economical advantage, and I know what he's doing.
I also get a forge before my 2nd gateway. I find it VERY important to get +1 or even 1/1 in PvP.
Then once I resist his 4gate or 3gate1robo or whatever push, I gain the economical advantage and just tech up and out macro him.
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One thing that Im finding impossible to stop with any sort of colossus build is the 4 warpgate pylons in base. I mean a 1base colssus build can handle most things, but a 4 gate pylons in base sort of make you want to 4gate as well just to hold it off. Phoenix builds get thrashed by this, and 3gate immortals it can be iffy.
3gate immortal is probably the only non 4gate build that has a chance holding this off, but it feels a lot like a 2gate robo vs a 4gate in BW PvP its hard to say which one will come out on top. And then you have to take into account that he only warps in zealots then the immortals are not as good.
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On August 02 2010 06:26 cmpcmp wrote: What are other diamond protoss players doing as their "standard" build in this Match-up? I am currently a ~300 diamond protoss player, and I am having a lot of trouble with this match-up. It seems that there are A LOT of viable builds now, making anything resembling standard close to impossible.
-4 gate stalkers -4 gate stalker/zealot mix -2/3 gate robo (for immos) (often early obs for scouting) -1 base colosus -1 base fast blink -3/4 gate mildly fast expand (mostly on LT and BS) -9/10 gate proxy warp in (sooo annoying)
Basically, this makes me feel like this match up is a clusterfuck and I should just 3 gate and try to react accordingly, but once the first stalker is out I am completely blind, and getting a robo and an obs and getting it there is too much of a sacrifice in this mirror to be worth it. This is especially true on maps with back doors or wide chokes like BS, scrap station, and kulas ravine.
sentries are CRUCIAL in PvP with defendsive FF and offendsive GA. 2 gates zealots pressure is also a common play, the rest gona be 1gate cyber.
3/4 gates with or without robo plays requires a lot of map sense in containing and being contain. it will decided your expo timing and when to attack/retreat.
voidray some times can show up in a smart way
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I have been having a great deal of succes with three gate fast blink stalkers. Only lost one match with this build and that was because i got proxied in LT and saw it too late because his base was the last place I scouted (this is a general problem in LT and metalopolis btw and don't really know what to do about it. Even when sending a scout on 8 you risk not seing it before it is too late....)
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I have been doing quick 4 stalker pressure off of 2 gates, which disrupts most of the 3-4 wgate/robo/stargate builds, but loses badly to quick zealots or proxy pylons and your waprgate is delayed. Ideally you should be able to pick off a few probes, then pull back and tech off 3 gates into colo and expand. The exception is SoW, I just do a 2gate rush,I hate that map.
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What I mostly do is get a phoenix or VR to scout / harass / contain(a little a least), and then try to get my NE up with minimal defense. This way I get the economical advantage, and I know what he's doing.
I also get a forge before my 2nd gateway. I find it VERY important to get +1 or even 1/1 in PvP.
Let me get this straight, you go gate>cyber>port>forge>nexus>gates and you don't get WTFOWNED by 3/4 gate pressure or 3/4 gate robo or 1 base colo or in your base proxy pylons? I simply don't believe that is possible.
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I'm inclined to say that Colossi builds are the likely "standard" but its far more likely to run into a cheesy/warpgate rush build.
I've been having a lot of trouble as well (Diamond), moreso than in the beta, because i try and play robo builds and get killed off by 4 warpgate builds and the like.
I think the problem with PvP is no high ground advantage. It makes defending early aggression impossible with anything but a mirror build (mostly). It really needs to come back, to add some dynamics to PvP.
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(I'm similar rank to you OP, slightly higher)
Make sentries. 4 gate can't do shit if you have force-fields. Stall until immo/colossi as you please.
It's really hard to expand in PvP.
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I usually do 2 gate expand builds.
Reasonably effective against any other builds, (especially 4 warp gate proxy pylon builds) provided you don't lose too many zealots in the beginning. Contain, then expand.
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PvP is my best matchup. I always go for fast blink stalkers and switch into a massive amount of chargelots. Usually by the time I attack, or the opponent attacks me, they only have 1 or 2 collossi. The only problem really is FF, if you get caught at a narrow part of the map or they can play 1 base defensively. At the very least, though, I can prevent them from getting their nat.
I'm a mid-low diamond, though I have seen White-ra do the same strat.
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I'm not extremely good in PvP either (diamond rank, but still no great player), but I usually win if I just sacrifice a probe or a zealot extra to scout. Your initial scout will usually see if he goes for a quick 2-gate or 1-gate to cybercore in case you are worried about a rush, and after that when the first stalker comes out, he will usually pick your scout off unless you've sent it back home. Scouting is always key (as in any matchup), but especially in PvP I think. I very rarely make any tech buildings before I got 3 gates, and I have lost several times when trying to get a fairly quick robo facility for an observer and the opponent goes 4-gate and simply roflstomps me. No matter what, 4-gate is a very solid build, and you can easily adept to mid- and late game even if you decide to push and don't break him. As some other mentioned, I also never FE vs a protoss, as that spells certain doom if he scouts it early.
Another fairly solid build I like to use is to quickly mass up some zealots and upgrade charge pretty fast. Chargelots usually own stalkers pretty badly, even if the opponent microes well. And even if it comes to that, you can basically attack-move the whole way while he needs to pay attention to his stalkers all the time (assume you've got more zealots than him anyways) and macro poorly unless his APM is really good. Even if he techs up to stuff like colossi, you will usually still come out on top due to that he won't have enough units to protect his tech units. This build, however, excels mostly at Blistering Sands or any map that you can break a way up to your opponent's base by destroying some rocks. Another great thing about this build is that it's mineral heavy only, and if you should fail, you got tons of gas to use if some other units are needed later (do keep probes in your assimilators even though you mass zealots!). If there is only one ramp, you may get screwed pretty badly if he has sentries and FFs half of your zealots on top of the ramp while the rest just roam around like madmen at the bottom. Stargate builds also (naturally) own this, but if you see it in time, you can start warp in stalkers to counter the initial void rays.
I guess scouting is the key, really.
Edit: with quick charge and lots of zealots vs a balanced protoss army: add an immortal or two into this build, and you're golden. Again, unless he got a quick stargate up.
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On August 02 2010 07:02 cmpcmp wrote:Show nested quote +What I mostly do is get a phoenix or VR to scout / harass / contain(a little a least), and then try to get my NE up with minimal defense. This way I get the economical advantage, and I know what he's doing.
I also get a forge before my 2nd gateway. I find it VERY important to get +1 or even 1/1 in PvP. Let me get this straight, you go gate>cyber>port>forge>nexus>gates and you don't get WTFOWNED by 3/4 gate pressure or 3/4 gate robo or 1 base colo or in your base proxy pylons? I simply don't believe that is possible.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough I dont just expand after my forge, I expand when I feel like its safe, but as quick as possible(duh, everybody does that^^).
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I think that if you try to go collossi off of one base you deserve to lose to someone who has expanded.
My standard build right now is something like 1gate -->warpgate --->robo ---> 3warpgate zealot/stalker(maybe a sentry or 2), throw in a couple immortals if they have a decent number of stalkers. I then expand if I can.
If they are basically all stalkers or stalker/immortal I get zealot charge and make a shitload of zealots, later adding in collossi. If they have more zealots i say screw zealot charge and get collossi first.
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I've personally found it increasingly more viable to go a 2 gate Zealot opening and then into 4 gate Templar tech. Basically I've found that going Robo is just going to prompt Void-Rays or Robo of his own and really it seems to make more sense to me (and has worked for me this way) to simply stick with infantry as long as is viable. Essentially my opponents tend to respond with Colossi and then I can simply Chrono out some Immortals to turn the battle in my favor.
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hey Travis sup man i hate DT . Anyways I've been noticing everybody going 1 base colossus into expand. I usually just counter it with 3 warpgate robo timing attack. If they don't expand then I expand and try to hold off the first wave, then it's auto win.
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PvP is prolly my best matchup at the moment and I honestly don't find it too must of a clusterfuck, as OP puts it.
4gate builds are really easy to stop as long as you see it coming. To prevent pylons from being built in your base, make sure you have spotter pylons everywhere to catch hidden ones and have your first unit be a chrono'd stalker. Kill that scouting probe asap and prevent more from coming in. Once you've done that, just prevent any more probes from getting in, which should be easy as long as you have at least two units on your ramp, one of which is a stalker. A good way to scout a 4gate build is to notice when they put up a second gas. If it's late (a good time after cyber finishes warping in) it's a 4gate, or the guy's just bad. If they refuse to build anything while your scout's still in their base is also a good sign of a 4gate.
To stop a 4gate is not too bad either. Sentries with good FF use will allow you to defend a 4gate with only 3, maybe even 2 gates if your tech comes out fast enough.
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My most successful build is 2 gate robo. Get an obs out first to see the opponent`s build, and then go from there.
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o hi freeze yeah dts are lame cuz.. i mean who goes dt lol, can't really expect it
you're actually the only person i've gone dts against haha just felt like it might work
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