I as well as many others finally got our long awaited hands on experience with SC2 at blizzcon this weekend!! What did you guys think about the gameplay in general and this specific build?
I was very happy to find out that when playing SC2 it felt a lot like playing the original in the sense that the game was still very fast paced and the general micro was very similar. I played with mutas a lot since they are my favorite unit and I was really worried that they were not going to have the same feel and abilities they did in SC. I found out however that the control is actually very much alike the first. Hit and run with mutas is still possible and stacking still works great. (Since stacking works with muts and an overlord does that mean that magic boxes still exist?) What I liked that was different is that you don't have to worry about the angle your mutas were at when attacking to get the full range.
Things I noticed about this build: -No range for hydras -Lurkers have an upgrade that +3 to their range. -no speed for ultras - The new 150 mineral hatchery/anti air/tank/scv that is the queen seemed broken. After you build your spawning pool you have access to make a queen through your hathery that doesn't require larvae to build. The queen doesn't have long build time and for 25 mana she adds 4 larvae to a hathery. She has a ranged attack that shoots air as well as ground. She had another ability as well but I didn't see much use for it. She can lay some kind of cacoon that speeds up nearby certain units (drones not included) on the creep. That whole package seems so much better compared to a 300 mineral in base hatchery. Edit: Oh yah and she has a spell that can regen 200 hp to a nearby unit or building instantly. -Roaches are slow but have speed upgrade. They also have a faster regeneration upgrade -Drone only mine 4 gas at time which makes teching take a very long time. -Lings are very fast and supaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa chogoling fast with when they get their speed upgrade. -MBS..... was really helpful.However what was really annoying about it is that I couldn't find a way to set the default building. When I hit 55 to go back to my main it would end up going to some random hatchery.
I'm sure there is a few more things I'll remember and update tomorrow, but I'm exhausted. Didn't get much sleep last night after the teamliquid meet up. Speaking of the meetup I want to thank TL for hosting an awesome show!
I would also like to leave this thread open for questions that can maybe be answered by people who played SC2 this weekend.
Edit: I wanted to talk about overseers a little bit as well. I cannot remember the cost to upgrade an ovie to an overseer but I do recall it being pretty expensive. Overseers have an ability similar to devours (though I never used it) to spew acid spores on an area of units. Like the overlords the can spawn a changeling as well that mimics a nearby enemy unit.
Since overseers are zerg’s only mobile detection I’m afraid it is going to get picked off easily. Also it requires a good amount of gas and let me remind you that gas is more valuable and harder to accumulate since you only mine 4 at a time. With that being said I’m very afraid of dts. Since players will be encouraged to stay at lower tech longer because of slow gas mining a quick teching protoss may easily get an advantage. Also the new replacement for the sair and DT combo may turn out to be very powerful ZvP.
Infesters have 3 abilities. They can spawn infested terran, take control of a unit for 15 seconds, and ensnare a unit(s?) which make them unable to move for some time. This is cool but I fear with all these new spells coupled with attack animations much like the colossi I am afraid battles may end up looking like W3. Spectators can easily get confused. A great aspect from the original is that battles were quick, clear, and easy to see who had the advantage. If in SC2 however attack animations coupled with spells like acid spores, levitation, mind controlling and other spell casting becomes necessary in battles spectators may have a very hard time watching the game--especially ones that don’t play the game much.
edit: Just remembered that ultas didn't have an armor upgrade either. But they did have an upgrade letting their blades hit an area of units making them pretty much a bad ass zerg archon that can burrow instead of attack air.
Well, I want to ask how terran played. What seems to be the main of the terran army, is it still marine/marauder for the most part or have things changed? TvP//TvZ please :D. In TvZ how do rines fare against zerglings without medics?
The lurker upgrade add anouther +3 to their already 9 range? or do they start with 6 now? Also if hydra are supposed to be anti air but have no range upgrade how are they supposed to catch the air units? Ultras without speed sounds useless, probably just trying to force lategame nydus worms.
On August 23 2009 16:12 Entertaining wrote: The lurker upgrade add anouther +3 to their already 9 range? or do they start with 6 now? Also if hydra are supposed to be anti air but have no range upgrade how are they supposed to catch the air units? Ultras without speed sounds useless, probably just trying to force lategame nydus worms.
Hydras with speed upgrade are very very fast. That should help considerably.
On August 23 2009 16:29 Hyde wrote: Yeah I noticed (when watching the exhibition matches) zerglings and hydras moved very quickly once upgraded.
Did you notice any unit skin changes? Were there any new models?
I didn't follow the game closely enough leading up to Blizzcon to know what was a change and what wasn't. I can say that the models all looked beautiful as far as I'm concerned, particularly the multiplayer models. Everything felt really polished and it didn't feel like anything was just a placeholder (though I didn't get to tech up to and look at everything). The only model I didn't like too much was the Firebat model in single-player, which felt too large compared to the marine to me. That could just be me though, and it is a single player exclusive unit at this point so there's no harm in making it stand out a bit I guess.
I played about 20 games of sc2 while at blizzcon (I'd say about 40% zerg 40% terran 20% protoss). I'd have to say from talking to other people as well as my own experience, Protoss is strongest, Terran is an extremely close 2nd, and zerg is down there.
In general, for TvP & TvZ marine marauder medivac is quite the strong unit combo. Its basically marine medic of sc1, except the medics fly and can transport, with an added in cannon blasting buff badass (the marauder).
zerg to me seems the weakest. Roaches are strong in big groups, but can't attack air. In TvZ the terrans tend to get medivacs and the hunter seeker missle units (cant remember their name). I felt that if I couldn't win within the first 8 or so minutes i'd lose.
-zvz it really is about who has more mutas. There aren't any air units like scourge that can counter mutas or fight alongside with them. Basically you have to keep hydras/queens in your base to keep out the muta harrassment. Or you can make that spore crawler thing (basically a spore colony). I won a game by getting speed lings quite early (9 pooled & extractor same time), basically just rolled over my opponent with lings.
I think the problem with zerg is the lack of strong mid-game units. The roach when vs zealots/stalkers or m&m&m (marine marauder medivac) just get owned. Banelings, while were my favorite unit to play with, were very hard to use effectively. you really have to trick & use strategic placement to get them anywhere near exploding on guys.
-Ultralisks, once u have them, will just roll over everything. Some protoss I was playing wanted to turtle the whole game, so I just got like 12 ultralisks & hydras and 1a2a3a his base, gg. -Mutalisks, for my games they seemed essential in mid game zvz. Whoever had more mutas basically would be out on top, unless you were secretly getting mix hydra/muta with them. Also just learned (to my dissadvantage) corrupters are good aa units. Totally woulda been helpful yesterday haha. But still, I'd rather be chasing mutas away with other flying units, then just having them camp just behind my base in the fog. -queen, I dig her(?). she is good AA for if you are stuck in your base, good early game defense, and can basically give you as many more larvae as u want.
Protoss
Zealot/archon/high templars/stalkers is quite strong. Also throw in some immortals, those dudes pack a punch. - Obelisks are awesome, basically just make ur workers mine and gather way faster, and you can use it pretty common. I don't think I played a PvZ game, but like in that battle report, the pheonix + void ray air unit combo is strong. It is also good in pvt, where the terran has tanks, just flank with those air units, lift up those tanks, and gg. -storm looks SO badass. love it -pvp according to browder & from my 1 or 2 game experience is all about stalkers. Blink is badass, love teleporting units away at the last minute.
Terran I love the terran in this sc2 build at blizzcon. go dual rax, one has reactor one has tech lab, pump marines marauder medivacs & depending on what your opponent has, get some tanks or hellions. -m&m&m I see as one of the most common strats when the game is released (if nothing much is done on them). U can use drop play, u can just storm the front of the base, plenty of things -Thors, while they look big and badass, in my games vs T they sucked. I could take one down with like 3 immortals and not lose one. -Banshees are cool, they can cloak (researched from tech lab).
As terran I won majority of my games going dual rax, reactor/tech lab, marine marauder, & went from there. If it was say vs Z and he had buncha lings get some hellions, if he had roaches maybe some tanks.
After a while, all the games started to become a blur. But I remember as zerg I always felt I was at a disadvantage, unless it was mirror. Really I think proper timing and placement of your units will win it (duh haha). You can't just send in your banelings first thing into a bunch of marines and marauders. You have to either flank or have them burrowed pre fight, and kite the player into them. No decent player will just stand there and let banelings explode into them.
as about actions... I know people don't like the auto mining thing and unlimited units in a control group, but those don't make your apm go down by 200 points. There are still plenty of other things to do. I'd say for actions, the most required would be zerg, protoss, then terran. As Zerg, you gotta keep optimizing your queen. have that biznatch run back and forth between hatcheries, making more and more larvae. I found myself constantly making waypoints for my queen to go use that spell. Also, it costs BARELY any energy. I can't remember having to wait for my queens energy to regen before using it. You can always use 4 more mutas, lings, or whatever it is. As for other zerg actions, it is simple math. You have to click your control group for your hatchery, then s to select larva, then spam whatever units u want. so u have 3 larva and wanna make lings, (assuming you are controlling say your overlord): 8szzz. Whereas for say a barracks or gateway, its just 7x (x representing keystroke for whatever unit). For protoss, you also gotta utilize obelisks. Those things A. make your probes go white super saiyan form and B. gather way faster. Who wouldn't want that. with Terran, yeah if you upgrade your command center you can get 1 mule (just a fast gatherer for 30 or so seconds). But it is just 1 unit, and the energy takes a while to recover after u use it. So that is definitely lower on the totem pole.
So in actions general, it does take less than original starcraft, but that doesn't mean there won't be anything to do. The only time I found myself spamming was at the very beginning, waiting for that 1st worker to come out and things among that.
In conclusion (sorry for epicly long post), I feel that zerg are missing something. It seems like they can't make a decent push on the map without either double the food of the opponent, or without ultralisks (who srsly pwn everything). Terran, their m&m&m works in all matchups, and in mirror you can just counter it with tanks. Protoss, almost forgot about warp-in! I was mislead, I thought u could warp in any unit that you already have on the battlefield onto say a proxy pylon. It has to be a new unit. You can only warp in 1 unit from each gateway, it takes 5 seconds, then you have to wait for a certain amount of time for the cooldown. So if your units are on the battlefield, they cant be warped.
my $0.02 on sc2 @ blizzcon 09
Still was fun as hell and enjoyed every minute of every game! only wish I could play it right now
So as zerg did they fix the auto surround? There was alot of complaining that if you attacked a worker with 6 zerglings for example it would auto attack ones around it is it still true?
On August 23 2009 17:24 blade55555 wrote: So as zerg did they fix the auto surround? There was alot of complaining that if you attacked a worker with 6 zerglings for example it would auto attack ones around it is it still true?
The problem is there is no problem as its doing exactly what its suppose to do which is move into position until that unit can attack, the only reason units in starcraft don't do it is the ai is awful and unfortunately purposely dumbing down the ai in starcraft 2 is a poor decision.
On August 23 2009 17:24 blade55555 wrote: So as zerg did they fix the auto surround? There was alot of complaining that if you attacked a worker with 6 zerglings for example it would auto attack ones around it is it still true?
The problem is there is no problem as its doing exactly what its suppose to do which is move into position until that unit can attack, the only reason units in starcraft don't do it is the ai is awful and unfortunately purposely dumbing down the ai in starcraft 2 is a poor decision.
will so far everyone has said its bad because its hard to focus down units. So it was a problem according to a lot of people who played zerg.